The Gate

Are my thoughts really mine?
What I've seen is no ability to choose a thought. The idea that thoughts are mine, is just another thought.
Can I think and choose a thought?
I checked again and again, not currently.

I'm teetering. Thoughts compete. Nothing new. Just ideas clashing and passing and bobbing up again.

More please?

The idea that thoughts are mine, is just another thought.

Good.

an I think and choose a thought?
I checked again and again, not currently.

But maybe sometimes in the future? Can you see that it`s your mind that is feeling insecure and likes to postpone the moment of it`s untimely death? (I`m feeling a bit poetic this morning :D )
You looked and saw you have nothing to do with thoughts popping in and out of your awareness, right? Anything else than that is just the mind trying to get a hold on you.

More please?

All right. I hope the thoughts thingie is clear.

In direct experience, can you find an “I” that experiences experience?

Is there a watcher separate from the seen or is there just seeing happening?

Hi Andrei,

In direct experience, can you find an “I” that experiences experience?

No.

Is there a watcher separate from the seen or is there just seeing happening?

This gets really tricky for me. I want to deconstruct and analyze which hides DE and conceives multiplying concepts.

I found this easier to approach with hearing than seeing. I experience hearing happening, not a hearer or listener.

When I intently listen (repeatedly), I/time disappears.

With seeing this arises: there is no watcher, there is just seeing happening BUT BUT BUT but the seeing happening feels separate from the object seen.

The thought follows that it is probably belief/conditioning that imagines that distinction, but if so it is too quick for me to notice.

Again Andrei, your persistence is appreciated. Appreciation is arising!

I experience hearing happening, not a hearer or listener.

Perfect.

With seeing this arises: there is no watcher, there is just seeing happening BUT BUT BUT but the seeing happening feels separate from the object seen.

No worries. You don`t need to go all the way first time. Important is that there is seeing without an "I" to do it. Seeing happens.
We`ll get to the other objects and feeling separated later. This might be a tad bit more complicated so better not to rush in.

Is there a self that controls breathing? that walks? that does daily activities?

And second, I want us to talk more about the subject of choices. You already said there is no "I" to choose thoughts. Now let`s talk about choices in general.

Take two objects/possibilities, of which you might ordinarily choose either e.g. coffee or tea, blue pen or black pen, salt and pepper, then sit and see if you can find the choice-point where you could go either way. Describe how choosing happens.

Again Andrei, your persistence is appreciated. Appreciation is arising!

Glad to be of assistance. Plus it helps me too. After you go through the gate and see the self as a make-belief story, that doesn`t mean the stories or the tendency to believe them will disappear all of a sudden. It helps to remain focused in order to get used to this new paradigm so guiding others is helpful :)

Hi A,

These questions are tough to answer.

Is there a self that controls breathing? that walks? that does daily activities?

Breathing is happening. The body moves. Activities occur. Is there a self? I don't know what a self is. Does it (a self) control these things? Thoughts say some daily activities are due to prior choice. The self is not the source of those prior thoughts/decisions. In direct experience, i.e., right now, the body moves in small motions prior to thought. Pauses in this answer occur. Facial muscles relax. Typing resumes. Based on that I feel "closer" but I wish I could simply answer your question with a simple and emphatic NO!

Take two objects/possibilities, of which you might ordinarily choose either e.g. coffee or tea, blue pen or black pen, salt and pepper, then sit and see if you can find the choice-point where you could go either way. Describe how choosing happens.

After finishing this post, I want to take a nap. Thoughts arise which boil down to "Don't nap!" Competing thoughts continue to ricochet around--pro nap concepts, anti nap concepts. Napping will likely win the battle. At what point exactly was the choice made? I can't find that point. I'd say prior to the end of the competing ideas about the implications of napping, but that is not (yet?) direct experience. If the nap happens, then the choice is made. Or if the nap happens, the choice disappears. Choosing doesn't happen? Choosing doesn't happen. Happening happens.

Thanks and best!

Choosing doesn't happen. Happening happens.

Well done.

Based on that I feel "closer" but I wish I could simply answer your question with a simple and emphatic NO!

Where is the blockage then? Because I don`t see it in what you`re writing. From your words I take it that you already seen through the illusion of the self or getting very close. Is it maybe that you`re a bit afraid of what this shift in perspective might bring in your life? You seem like you don`t want to let go of the tiller.
That "thing" that makes you doubt is where you need to look into and seeing through it might be the last drop that makes the glass spill, if you catch my meaning.

From your words I take it that you already seen through the illusion of the self or getting very close.

I think that too: I think I do see through it sometimes. But the doubt is about the fear of allowing myself to relax. As if there is a mega lazy me just looking for an excuse to let go of the tiller and fabricating a whole idea of no self just to justify the letting go. I don't trust myself (which I guess is practical since there is no self to trust). If there is no self, than doubts arise and subside independent of me. No problem, just there and then not.

maybe that you`re a bit afraid of what this shift in perspective might bring in your life?

Yeah--I must be afraid. Afraid of being wrong. Much of my self story is built on my making poor choices. Choices that make me foolish and embarrassed. And yet, deeper within there has always (or mostly?) been a fatalism that was like my secret security blanket: I'll go through the motions of trying and I will effort, but none of it makes any difference since what will be, will be. I guess too I'm afraid to having to (feeling pressured by others to) defend my choice, my vantage point. I think "consensus reality" is somewhat offended by the idea of no free will (which is where no self leads me). It's seen as passive or feeble or shirking of responsibility. People want explanations. "It feels indicated," doesn't satisfy those who question WHY I do something . I don't articulate goals and ambitions and my plans on the steps to take to reach them. I just don't. If tomorrow morning I awake with absolute incontrovertible conviction of no self, I think my day would go pretty much like today did. I'd get up to go to work, because I do. But I would do it thinking that it didn't matter much, so I could worry less. I worry less when I think there is no separate self. I like worrying less.

This could go further off into my ideas or theories, but that leads me away from direct experience. Direct experience is so plain and neutral! Not a complaint, thought is required for that.

Signing off with curiosity, fondly, Megs Sconset

Yeah--I must be afraid. Afraid of being wrong. Much of my self story is built on my making poor choices. Choices that make me foolish and embarrassed.

Your mind keeps telling you a story about all the poor choices you made in your life. (Funnily enough all our minds tell us the exact type of story to each and every one of us. At least mine does too.) But you know it`s nothing but a bedtime story now because you have the tool - direct experience - to see that there is no "I" making choices. They simply happen.

But to go further, for until now we talked about mundane things like picking coffee over tea, I want you to think of the most important things that "you" thought you had to choose in your life, like, i don`t know, picking your college, or job, or spouse, or apartment, or having children, etc. and then tell me, have you ever chosen anything or did choices simply happened? Are you the result of "your" choices or are you the result of life unfolding?

Also, let`s talk a bit about the body. Does the body experience sensations and thought or is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinaesthetic)?

People want explanations. "It feels indicated," doesn't satisfy those who question WHY I do something . I don't articulate goals and ambitions and my plans on the steps to take to reach them. I just don't.

And that is not going to change. The others have minds of their own to answer to. The outer conditions won`t change. You will change (which you can see already). You will worry less. You will be more relaxed. You will just let things go knowing that you have no control over them anyway. Shit happens :)

Yes, shit does happen.

and then tell me, have you ever chosen anything or did choices simply happened?

In retrospect it seems like things just turned out the way that they did. That what happened, happened. Big choices like colleges, marriages, divorces, jobs, etc came and went. Sometimes "decisions" feel very difficult, I feel at war. Other times they seem easy and obvious, or painful but still obvious. And fear of "mistake" makes me feel unable or unwilling to decide. But in the moment, there is not a self that choses to feel fear. Fear arises. Reactions to fear occur or don't occur. Pausing, postponing or refusing to decide occurs. "Pulling the trigger" occurs. Sometimes repeating unwanted behavior, in spite of dire consequences and no apparent motive occur. Yes, shit happens.

Does the body experience sensations and thought or is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinaesthetic)?

Right now I have a mild headache. Pressure is. My nose is cold. The warmth of my hand against the cold of my nose feels pleasing and the desire for more warmth appears very subtly. While my big toe does not hurt, and my knees aren't cold, I still can't conclude that the body, my body, is experiencing or not experiencing those sensations. Maybe consciousness is experiencing them? Maybe they just are? But they do feel like they have a location in space.

With thoughts, more vaguely, there is still a sense of where. Not that my body makes thoughts or that I chose them, but that they occur in the upper portion of my head. Not in my tongue, nor my fingers but somewhere, not defined, between and around the eyes. Do they occur there or just seem like they are located there, I don't know. Other times thoughts or emotions travel to other body parts. Or maybe not travel but just arise in other areas. Or other body areas register thoughts/emotions/sensations. Thoughts and sensations don't occur apart from the body, or they don't feel like they do.

And fear of "mistake" makes me feel unable or unwilling to decide. But in the moment, there is not a self that choses to feel fear. Fear arises.

Indeed, fear arises. Just like any other feeling/emotion, good or bad. They happen. Some seem to have more of the "negative" emotions, others more of the "positive", but they just happen.

Maybe consciousness is experiencing them? Maybe they just are? But they do feel like they have a location in space.

Depends on the point of view. From a macro perspective yes there is a body just like there are other bodies and other objects. From a micro perspective, you are not aware of any body. Your brain receives information through the nervous system from your senses regarding the keyboard you touch, the chair you sit on, your feet on the floor, etc. Cut the senses and the brain is muted. Where is the body then?
But anyway, this is sort of extra work. What is important is whether there is an "I" identifying with the body. If there is none we can move on.

Okey dokey. We left the subject of "others" and separation for later and I think now it`s a good time to poke it with a stick.

In DE, leave aside conceptualization and what I said above about senses and all that and tell me: Is there an inside and an outside of the body?

Also what about the other objects (nature, animals, people)? Is there a "you" that feels separated from them or is that just another thought/concept?

Hi Andrei,

This is so befuddling!

Is there an inside and an outside of the body?

In order to get into DE, I close my eyes and try to feel an inside and outside of the body. Thoughts/concepts bombard the blankness. Heartbeating is sensed. Inside. I open my eyes to see the difference between inside and outside. I stare at skin. Skin is. Space around skin and against skin is. I notice hair, part in skin, part out in space. My ideas about inside and outside of body seem to block my ability to experience directly. Sounds "outside" need contact with inside (or border of ?) to be heard. The sound that thoughts say come from the truck outside are heard HERE. Where does here start and end?

Also what about the other objects (nature, animals, people)? Is there a "you" that feels separated from them or is that just another thought/concept?

I seem separate from the chair across the room from objects outside the body. Less separate from the chair on which I sit (that I impact and that impacts this body/ me), but still separate. In direct experience, I think I feel separate. Feeling separate, distinct, other than may be just a thought but if it is it is a deeply ingrained thought. A thought that's hard to sense/experience beyond.

I wish I could just say in DE there is no difference between me and all else, but I think if I did I wouldn't need your assistance.

Thanks again.

This is so befuddling!

It is quite a bit :D

My ideas about inside and outside of body seem to block my ability to experience directly.

Precisely! In DE you look and what do you see? Shapes and colours. Then your mind says the colour is pink (or whatever) and the shape is that of a hand.
But no worries, this is just extra work if you want to play with it. It does make your mind go bonkers a bit :D

Where does here start and end?

Down the rabbit hole :D

In direct experience, I think I feel separate. Feeling separate, distinct, other than may be just a thought but if it is it is a deeply ingrained thought. A thought that's hard to sense/experience beyond.

Ok let`s play with it. Imagine you`re in a completely dark place somewhere. For 10-15 seconds you`re just lost in this darkness. Your mind is blank too. Then your skin start sending to the brain the information of something warm and nice to the touch. You start to hear some birds twittering and the noise made by waves. You open your eyes and see the blue sky and smell the salt in the air. Without even seeing the water your mind creates the idea that you`re by the sea.
See, in DE you notice shapes and colours, you smell scents and hear noises and then your mind start giving them names.
Same with the other objects and people. You see shapes and colours and then your mind start explaining them to you: "that`s a cat", "that short bald guy with an inferiority complex looks like Vladimir Putin", and so on.
Let me know if it`s not clear. Maybe I can explain it better.

Anyway, I`m going to turn the question around a bit. Let`s agree that there are other objects and people. Do you think other peoples have "selves" for real and just you don`t?

Do you think other peoples have "selves" for real and just you don`t?

If I don't have a self than it makes sense that no one does. If I was the only one without a self, that would be a sort a self, a defining difference. Most people seem to think they have selves, but I often think I have one too. That doesn't mean there is one.

That one felt easy!

What about the platform on which things happen, call it mind-screen, call it awareness, consciousness etc. Is that a deeper level of the "self" or is it just another bodily function?

Greetings Andrei,

What about the platform on which things happen, call it mind-screen, call it awareness, consciousness etc. Is that a deeper level of the "self" or is it just another bodily function?

I think "awareness" is a deeper level of life more than self. A self is what one thinks one is as opposed to all other(s). A separateness or delineation. Awareness we all have, it may be what we think of as self, but then self is singular, common to all. It could be a bodily function, but it could outlive the body. Does this "mind-screen" end when the body ends? Maybe it ends identifying with that body, maybe it just remembers it was always everpresent. Could this be something knowable by direct experience? I can imagine "experiencing" the One Self, but would that render it knowable?

Fondly, Megs Sconset