The Gate

Hi Oliver! :)

The problem is that I logically believe there is no self, no free will, only the ‘now’ etc, but it’s difficult to directly see it on demand.

Putting aside the fact that memory is just another thought, I’ve experienced the lack of self before, but it takes a lot of time and focussed attention. 'Real life’ then gets distracting and returning to insight seems exceptionally difficult. Thought’s and beliefs take hold so quickly.

Belief in no-self don't make you see reality.

First of all, you have to sincerely LOOK and really see, and understand it; viscerally understand it.
That is the point about this conversation.

When it is really seen, there's no need for belief, because it IS reality - it doesn't matter
if it is believed or not.



When thoughts and beliefs take hold, to whom is that a problem?
What is it that's making it a problem?


Regards,

Bananafish

Hello Bananafish,

Something changed a little. There was a realisation that instead of looking, there was merely thinking about looking! With more effort to actually look there is a significantly different feeling.

When thoughts and beliefs take hold, to whom is that a problem?

It’s difficult to answer without going into thought, since the question feels about a situation rather than right now. But perhaps the question equivalent to ‘who could have a problem with now?’.

If I put my attention to direct experience then I see absolutely no trace of anyone who could have a problem. There are just objects, colours, textures etc. No trace of a me, just the world.

What is it that's making it a problem?

This feels close to theorising, but probably thought which seems to vanish during looking.

Thanks

Oliver

Hi Oliver. :)

If I put my attention to direct experience then I see absolutely no trace of anyone who could have a problem. There are just objects, colours, textures etc. No trace of a me, just the world.

Nice. :)

This feels close to theorising, but probably thought which seems to vanish during looking.

Please inquire till you're 100% sure about it. Not "probably."


LOOK if thoughts have the ability to create problems.

Actually LOOK at thoughts that appear and disappear. Can they function in any way other than labels or narration?


Can you control them?


Warm regards,


Bananafish

Hi Bananafish,

I've not yet had time to satisfactorily look into the questions, so will try for a while longer then get back.

Thanks

Oliver

Hi Oliver! Yes, take your time; I'll be waiting for you.

Hi,

Actually LOOK at thoughts that appear and disappear. Can they function in any way other than labels or narration?

Thoughts appear to function only as labels and narration. At first it seemed that thoughts were necessary to inform subsequent actions, e.g. when solving a challenging problem that "needs careful thought". It later became clear that thinking took place, and then action may or may not happen, but it's not possible to directly attribute the actions to the thoughts.

Surprising. ... who is surprised? Oh, er, ...

Can you control them?

[/quote]

No. Initially it looked like thoughts could be controlled, then it became clear that that was just a story!

Thanks

Hi there! :)

Thoughts appear to function only as labels and narration. At first it seemed that thoughts were necessary to inform subsequent actions, e.g. when solving a challenging problem that "needs careful thought". It later became clear that thinking took place, and then action may or may not happen, but it's not possible to directly attribute the actions to the thoughts.

Nice ...

Can you control them?

[/quote]

No. Initially it looked like thoughts could be controlled, then it became clear that that was just a story![/quote]

Great observation, Oliver!


Now, is the thought 'I' different from other thoughts?

Please actually LOOK at the thought 'I' and report.


Peace,

Bananafish

Hi Bananafish,

Now, is the thought 'I' different from other thoughts?

After much looking, no, it's just another thought, only frequently recurring. It mostly seems to be narration, but there's also labelling.

Oliver

Hi Oliver!

Sorry for the late reply ... been sick recently.

After much looking, no, it's just another thought, only frequently recurring. It mostly seems to be narration, but there's also labelling.

Nice LOOKing!

OK, now, tell me; Is there an 'I,' 'me,' 'self' in any form other than a mere thought?


Peace,

Bananafish

Hi Bananafish,

Just wanted to let you know that I'm still looking for clear answers. It sounds strange, but I'm not sure what to look for. I know it's meant to be a 'me', 'self', or 'I', but I'm what does that actually look like. I'll take it slow and see what is seen. For now it's mostly been observations of thoughts and sensations.

Thanks

Oliver

Is there an 'I,' 'me,' 'self' in any form other than a mere thought?

No. Just thought, labels, concepts, building one on top of another. So familiar and absorbing that they almost appear concrete. A 'self' belief accompanied by beliefs about 'other', which can slip through the net unless looking carefully. But at the end of the day, just thoughts.

Oliver

Greetings, Oliver. :)

No. Just thought, labels, concepts, building one on top of another. So familiar and absorbing that they almost appear concrete. A 'self' belief accompanied by beliefs about 'other', which can slip through the net unless looking carefully. But at the end of the day, just thoughts.

Is that understanding an experiential one, or rather an intellectual one?

Is that understanding an experiential one, or rather an intellectual one?

I looked again to check. Same result, just thought, loads of them. Nothing actually concrete.

Oliver

Hi Oliver! :)

I looked again to check. Same result, just thought, loads of them. Nothing actually concrete.

Great!
Do you have anything you want to further explore? Any remaining doubts?

If not, do you want to proceed to the final questions?


Kind regards,

Bananafish

Hi Bananafish,

The illusion has been seen. It's clear that it will take a good deal more practice to keep returning to the insight though. I'd be happy to answer any final questions now and move on.

Many thanks for your guidance.

Oliver