The Gate

Ghata

I can see where you are coming from, Dhammapala. :-) (Long email ahead)

My expectations are based on endless books and teachings that make it the supreme good of the spiritual life - relief, joy, peace, ease, safety (ie no more lower rebirths), no more doubt (one of the fetters), it becomes impossible to break the precepts, etc etc etc - in other words something obviously happens. But none of this was the case for me. When difficulty arose, I collapsed totally. So if I really did it, what was the use of it?? Can you see my confusion and doubt?

Yes, I can see that. I am not familiar with all these things that are supposed to happen at streamentry. My only source is the Pali Kanon, the original teachings of the Buddha. The Abidhamma has already many interpretations that cannot be found in the original teachings.

The Buddha never said that these things are going to happen, so personally I never expected anything else to happen but seeing through the self-illusion.

Certainly he never talked about any peaceful states that would be achieved by entering the stream 24/7. Quite on the opposite, he said "The lazy streamenterer will remain in suffering". I think that says it all.

Streamentry...Personally I think ALL concepts are loaded in a terrible way with what people wish to happen without having actually experienced it. Seeing through the illusion of self is one step. It means simply giving up a habitual thinking pattern. It is nothing glorious. At the times of the Buddha, people saw through the self-illusion by simply listening to one lecture. And still today for some people it happens very easily. IT IS NOT A BIG THING. It is only seeing reality as it is.

Since you have this very strong pattern of self doubt it will take a while until it sinks in that seeing through the illusion of self can happen to you. You are not doubting the teachings (2nd fetter). You are doubting yourself.

Impossibility of breaking the precepts: That is something the Buddha NEVER talked about in this context. The streamenterer is "Erwachsen zu den Tugenden". That means he fully accepts the silas as a measure of what he does. Accordingly he will feel bad when breaking them. This feeling bad about it is the very proof that he is "Erwachsen zu den Tugenden". There is a sutta where somebody asks this very question. "What does it mean, "Erwachsen zu den Tugenden", and the Buddha explains it this way. Unfortunately I am in the caravan and can't refer to the source right now.


AND...most importantly,

You are now entering a new chapter of your spiritual journey or in near future, if you believe, you haven't seen through the illusion. I am happy to keep looking into the illusion of self with you until you are totally clear.

When there is no ME doing things but it arises because of a vast net of conditions coming together - how could you change it? And who would change it?

Do you know these lines from MN 117?

There is Right View with effluents (āsavas), siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions [of becoming].

And there is Right View that is noble, without effluents (āsavas), transcendent, a factor of the path.[1]

[1] MN 117

You will have to put everything you know aside and see everything for yourself, relying only on the direct experience. "In the seen only the seen". The Right View that is noble cannot be known by the mind.

It needs a lot of courage to leave what is known.

Yes, that's right. It seemed so useless when I was really under strain - when I really needed it, it was useless.

Yes. Old habits are very strong. They will show up until they evaporated through looking into them over and over again. That is a painful process. I had to go through it, all people I see in the groups go through it. And come out of it.

And I've seen no obvious reduction in defilements - another source of doubts about its validity.

The root defilement is not wanting to see that there is nothing satisfactory, permanent or substantial. This will only be gone after the 10th fetter disappeared.
Defilement will be there until the end.

Only when Nibbana is reached there is an end to it. It is certainly not a precondition to streamentry.

If there is anything left unclear, please address it. I am happy to answer and, as I said above, if you are not sure that saw through the illusion of ME, we are going to look into it further.

Sending love

Dhammapala
Dear Ghata,


Thank you so much, that helps a lot.


[Deep breath...] OK, let's go on...!


Thank you *always*

Ghata

Thank you so much, that helps a lot.


[Deep breath...] OK, let's go on...!

Good. By the way, there will never be anything glorious on this path. It is simply about seeing reality as it is. Sometimes there is joy in experiencing it, sometimes it is utter disorientation because the mind can't understand it. Bliss isn't part of the parcel. I waited for it at every corner, it never showed up. Even the most outstanding realizations simply become the new normal and are not even noticed as anything special any longer after a short time.

Is it clear that seeing through the illusion of self means just that? Nothing else is implied.

Now we need your dedication to see through all illusions. That means looking at things differently than you are used to.

Thought narratives and their attached emotions ARE actual experience... They are no less real than the 5 senses. I feel you *might* be creating a *hint* of a false division between the two by saying physical experience is "actual experience in this moment" or "actually taking place" and thought narratives - as if thoughts and emotions weren't "actually" effective now.

Let's look at the difference between thought content and the content of direct experience. This is a VERY important point and the key to get out of suffering.
Close your eyes and imagine a glass of cool fresh water in you hands. Feel the weight of the glass, it's texture, the temperature. Does the water sparkle? Have a sip. Feel the coolness in the mouth running down to the stomach, the refreshing feeling.

NOW OPEN YOUR EYES

Drink the water you just imagined.

What is the difference between thought content and the content of direct experience in the world of the 5 senses and what do they have in common?

Much love,

Ghata

Thank you so much, that helps a lot.


[Deep breath...] OK, let's go on...!

Good. By the way, there will never be anything glorious on this path. It is simply about seeing reality as it is. Sometimes there is joy in experiencing it, sometimes it is utter disorientation because the mind can't understand it. Bliss isn't part of the parcel. I waited for it at every corner, it never showed up. Even the most outstanding realizations simply become the new normal and are not even noticed as anything special any longer after a short time.

Is it clear that seeing through the illusion of self means just that? Nothing else is implied.

Now we need your dedication to see through all illusions. That means looking at things differently than you are used to.

Thought narratives and their attached emotions ARE actual experience... They are no less real than the 5 senses. I feel you *might* be creating a *hint* of a false division between the two by saying physical experience is "actual experience in this moment" or "actually taking place" and thought narratives - as if thoughts and emotions weren't "actually" effective now.

Let's look at the difference between thought content and the content of direct experience. This is a VERY important point and the key to get out of suffering.
Close your eyes and imagine a glass of cool fresh water in you hands. Feel the weight of the glass, it's texture, the temperature. Does the water sparkle? Have a sip. Feel the coolness in the mouth running down to the stomach, the refreshing feeling.

NOW OPEN YOUR EYES

Drink the water you just imagined.

What is the difference between thought content and the content of direct experience in the world of the 5 senses and what do they have in common?

Much love,

____________________

Dhammapala

Good. By the way, there will never be anything glorious on this path. It is simply about seeing reality as it is. Sometimes there is joy in experiencing it, sometimes it is utter disorientation because the mind can't understand it. Bliss isn't part of the parcel. I waited for it at every corner, it never showed up. Even the most outstanding realizations simply become the new normal and are not even noticed as anything special any longer after a short time.

Is it clear that seeing through the illusion of self means just that? Nothing else is implied.

Yes, sure. I guess that's why they do jhana - to get some joy in the tank to deal with all the pain, fear and disappointment...

Now we need your dedication to see through all illusions. That means looking at things differently than you are used to.

Thought narratives and their attached emotions ARE actual experience... They are no less real than the 5 senses. I feel you *might* be creating a *hint* of a false division between the two by saying physical experience is "actual experience in this moment" or "actually taking place" and thought narratives - as if thoughts and emotions weren't "actually" effective now.
Let's look at the difference between thought content and the content of direct experience. This is a VERY important point and the key to get out of suffering.
Close your eyes and imagine a glass of cool fresh water in you hands. Feel the weight of the glass, it's texture, the temperature. Does the water sparkle? Have a sip. Feel the coolness in the mouth running down to the stomach, the refreshing feeling.

NOW OPEN YOUR EYES

Drink the water you just imagined.

What is the difference between thought content and the content of direct experience in the world of the 5 senses and what do they have in common?

Total difference - one is real and one is fantasy. I see your point.

Also, a sense of not self has returned today. I now realise that seeing not self is just the first step. Everything remains to be done - or to unfold - in terms of defilements dissolving, fetters going, etc.

Brexit has also dissolved as a problem. So what if britain is in or out? I doubt it will affect my own life much (assuming there are no more european wars) in terms of my *direct experience* :-)

Ghata

Hey Dhammapala, lovely to see you back on the path <3.

Yes, sure. I guess that's why they do jhana - to get some joy in the tank to deal with all the pain, fear and disappointment...

Hahaha. Did you ever practice jhanas? In the course of dissolving the fetters, they will become available spontaneously, just by sitting down and focusing. So you can have your share :-). They also help integrating the insights as all meditation does.

Also, a sense of not self has returned today. I now realise that seeing not self is just the first step. Everything remains to be done - or to unfold - in terms of defilements dissolving, fetters going, etc

Good! This clarity will come and go for a while. When the ME is felt, look into it again. Can a me be found?

Brexit has also dissolved as a problem. So what if britain is in or out? I doubt it will affect my own life much (assuming there are no more european wars) in terms of my *direct experience* :-)

I love it. You are quickly getting the knack of how to get out of suffering :-). The whole Brexit problem is happening in thoughts right now. Nothing, NOTHING in the EU has changed as far as perceivable facts are concerned, when looking into direct experience.

Total difference - one is real and one is fantasy. I see your point.

Right. No thought content whatsoever will ever be real. You will never able to make love to your wife while only thinking of her. You will never be able to eat the lovely meal you remember.

And now look into what you wrote the other day once more. This exercise will be more difficult. Your dedication to see through all illusions will help you again. Look into it with the experience you gained from drinking imagined water and real water.

Gossip: people I have known for years and who I have a distant relationship with are gossiping and mocking me behind my back, making it clear how despised I am. I cannot know exactly what was said, precisely because it was behind my back, but this only increases my insecurity. Someone who i thought was a friend came to visit hong kong this week, staying with one of those friends. Before he came he told me he was coming and wanted to meet me. After a few days with them, silence, no word, and I never saw him. I sent a message asking what happened and got a pathetic lie in reply. I further challenged him that he had been listening to gossip about me, and that he was being unkind where he had no reason to be, and I got no further reply. This leaves me feeling vulnerable, hurt, attacked and hated.

I am looking forward to you findings :-)

Sending love

Dhammapala

Have I ever practiced the jhanas? No, never got very close...they seem very elusive. The mind needs to be so quiet and ungrasping - so I can see how working to "deepen" (metaphor) not self would make accessing them easier.

Ghata

Actually there is a certain "trick" to it, when practicing it before seeing through the first 5 fetters, after which they will be accessible rather easily. They are spaces of no self. As long as "you " try to quieten the mind, it won't work. At a certain point it needs a letting go of all efforts, a kind of "melting" into the experience.

Dhammapala

Gossip: people I have known for years and who I have a distant relationship with are gossiping and mocking me behind my back......

Again, this is easy now - it was and is all just thoughts, and the pain has subsided. But what will I be like when it happens again, which it will? I know that is just another thought and right now I'm ok - but I'm terribly susceptible to this kind of thing - being rejected, excluded and judged badly...

Ghata

Again, this is easy now - it was and is all just thoughts, and the pain has subsided. But what will I be like when it happens again, which it will? I know that is just another thought and right now I'm ok - but I'm terribly susceptible to this kind of thing - being rejected, excluded and judged badly...

Great, Dhammapala. Yes, the situation will happen again.

But each time it will become easier to get out of it because the seeing will be clearer, if only a tiny bit.


Dhammapala
A thought occurred to me that maybe my week of intense pain was karma being catalysed and coming to the surface following the insight on june 21st, to be dissolved. I know this isn't necessarily the language you use, but is it possible? Are the two linked in some way?

Much love to you


Ghata
If it had to do with karma, it were the fruits of karma, you could say, according to the Buddhist teachings and others, the fruits of karma show up in our lives, so you could say, yes, maybe something like that happened.

Is it true? Can you tell from your own experience?

On this path, only knowing from your own experience counts. Don't believe in anything, no scriptures, to teachers, certainly not me, not even in a teacher like the Buddha. That is what he himself taught.

The invitation is: "Come and see for yourself."

The mind tries to grasp experiences and explain them, categorize them. That is its function and it is good at it. The mind tries to protect the heart from being wounded.

Your heart-woman is strong, beautiful and wise. It doesn't need protection.

If you take away everything that was thought from what happened, what could be directly experienced? That is what remains. We try to get away from thought concepts and stay with experience only.

It doesn't make sense. If it had the meaning of burning up karma, it would give such a lovely feeling to what happened.

I have to break the news to you: I am here to take all illusions away, the nice ones as well :-). Sorry for disappointing you

Sending love



Dhammapala
Hahahahaha! I love your last sentence! :-)

Yes, it's so true - I don't know! It's just speculation....and what would I do with the information anyway? More thoughts and self view!

"Yes, Dhammapala, you burned up 3 eons of negative karma!"
"Ooooh, thanks! That feels good!"

Hahaha!

Hi, welcome back in the forum :-).

I will repeat my question from the first page, before I posted the last part of our email exchange

Yes, of course I have doubts: have I really seen the illusion of Me? Is it genuine seeing? Is this really the famous "stream entry" that all those buddhists salivate over attaining? If so, why was it so straightforward? Why can't all those monks and nuns do it with all their years of practice? Does that mean I haven't really done it after all? Because it's said to be so rare....so maybe I'm just kidding myself? It doesn't seem like anything much, and it's still happening to THIS person rather than to anyone else....on and on and on....

So no, I'm not 100 % sure.

And then I am sure.

And then I'm not sure.

Ha! Yes, streamentry has got quite a name amongst Buddhists, making it look at least as difficult as climbing the Mount Everest without oxygen, even impossible. That is the very hindrance and the cause, why this very straightforward fact is not seen.

Are you kidding yourself?

Have another look.
Can a ME be found anywhere?
What is doubting the seeing?

Ghata

Have another look.
Can a ME be found anywhere?
What is doubting the seeing?

Dhammapala

No, only seeing can be seen - everything else is thinking and believing the thinking, getting lost in it. The Me is just a belief. The clarity dims, or moods take over and the seeing dims and gets swept into believing and clinging to the thoughts. But there is no Me in any of it, only a belief in a phantom. What doubts is thinking and then clinging to thinking and then emotions start up with their narrative of 'I can't do this' etc. Coming out of the Me doesn't mean I don't exist - I obviously do! There is seeing and hearing and feeling etc all happening. It's just no longer personal. I can now see that it would be perfectly possible to reach a stage where I give my worst secret to my worst enemy in front of a crowd of 5000 people and not take personally what then happens. I'm not there yet!! But I can now imagine it's possible - because nothing is personal.

Lovely looking :-)

Are you 100% certain that there is no ME? Are there any doubts?

How does it feel to give this answer?

Sending love.

It feels good, and true. Sure, I need to deepen and integrate it and stabilise it, but when I look, I see just thoughts, just ideas, just mental images, all changing. Then I see grasping at some collection of mental images and freeze-framing it into Me. But it's not true... :-)

Beautifully said :-)

Are you ready for what we call the final questions?
As I said earlier in an email, this is not a test, rather a summary of your journey and findings up to this point.

Sending love.

Yes....

Sweet. Here they are.

You don't need to answer them all at once, it is possible to split them up.

As always, be sure to answer from direct experience.



1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'ME,' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Can you talk about decision, intention, free will, choice and control? What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

Sending love.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'ME,' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?


No, there isn't. There are forms, shapes, colours, sounds, tastes etc - but none of them has a self essence. None of them ever did.


2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.


The separate self is a creation of my thought, the little images of "Dhammapala" in my head that have gone unexamined for so long. It's the idea that I am a limited small fragment of being "in here" versus a huge world "out there". In fact the world and I interpenetrate, we're not separate, no inside and outside beyond what I label as "this is here" and "that is there", " this is mine" and "this is not mine". In fact it's all "mine" and none of it is "mine". Living from this vision allows me to become intimate with the world and feel at home there, because it's all participating in me. It's not that the world doesnt exist - it does, just as I do. But the problem arises when I solidify my dance with the living world into Me and It.



3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

Quiet, cool. Nothing special, yet it's a different perspective that enables suffering to be reduced, because suffering arises based on my believing everything so much, being unable to let go. There's a coolness there, relaxed.



4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

You guiding me. When you said I was in a heightened state on June 21st, it was true. It felt like my usual mental activity had been somehow quietened - not deeply, but it felt a bit like something was happening somehow.



5) Can you talk about decision, intention, free will, choice and control? What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

Things just happen based on circumstances. In the natural world processes just follow their imperatives of growth and decay. For me as a human, I am enmeshed in causes and conditions that mean I just do things....having a body means I just piss and shit when the body tells me to, and sleep. Yes, I prefer pizza to hamburgers, but that's just one of those things, based on conditioning from past pleasant experience. As a human with an ability to recall experience I can form preferences for one course of action over another, based on a wish for pleasant over unpleasant experiences. But again this is based on conditions directing my preferences. The only thing that is not enmeshed in conditions is whatever it is that knows conditions. I dont want to solidify that by giving it a name....but it's whatever is left over when all the identifications, ideas and images have been dropped.




6) Anything to add?

No.



Sending love.