Please nudge me through the gate

[Joyce]

Hi Linda,

This heaviness is verifiably happening, in that it is a felt sensation, correct?

Yes and thanks for verifying that feeling is in the touch category – really helpful.

does this heaviness/sadness require an entity ‘I’ or ‘Joyce to be felt, or registered in the body?

No it doesn’t need one but the gap between the sadness showing up and Joyce owning it is very narrow and seems to happen almost automatically. I am not sure whether the sadness shows up because I have owned a thought about the text – which comes first and does it matter? I am not currently able to separate the text and the feeling that comes up as separate from the person who sent it. Although I know he doesn’t create the feeling – Joyce does – I guess there must be a thought in there somewhere but not clear about that. All I know is the thought – when believed in – perpetuates the feeling so this is what I am doing I am sure – it’s all so tedious!

The exercise is perfect for my current location as I am staying in a hut down by a river – very peaceful. The river is right in front of me – it is more like a small brook and makes a beautiful babbling sound. The sun comes through the trees as dappled light although it is coming and going today as there are rainclouds and some thunder about. There are many birds about singing away. I can feel the occasional drop of rain on my skin and the cool air touching me – it is very still here. There is grass and foxgloves and ferns on the banks of the river. I can smell smoke distantly – I guess someone must be having a bonfire? I can sort of smell the trees and the brook too if that makes sense. The odd insect also whizzes past me. Not able to taste anything but that maybe because I am recovering from a vomiting virus and my taste buds are not in great fettle!

So many thanks to you Linda

Joyce

[Joyce]

Hi Linda,

I have tried to post 3 times but doesnt seem to be appearing. Are you receiving me!

Love

Joyce

[LindaR]

Hi Joyce,
I hope you received the PM I sent. It is hard to tell when the thread goes to a new page :-)

No it doesn’t need one but the gap between the sadness showing up and Joyce owning it is very narrow and seems to happen almost automatically. I am not sure whether the sadness shows up because I have owned a thought about the text – which comes first and does it matter?

It certainly does seem so, but can it hold up to investigation? Let’s do a little more work on the exercise and come back to this soon, does that sound okay?

The exercise is perfect for my current location as I am staying in a hut down by a river – very peaceful. The river is right in front of me – it is more like a small brook and makes a beautiful babbling sound. The sun comes through the trees as dappled light although it is coming and going today as there are rainclouds and some thunder about. There are many birds about singing away. I can feel the occasional drop of rain on my skin and the cool air touching me – it is very still here. There is grass and foxgloves and ferns on the banks of the river. I can smell smoke distantly – I guess someone must be having a bonfire? I can sort of smell the trees and the brook too if that makes sense. The odd insect also whizzes past me. Not able to taste anything but that maybe because I am recovering from a vomiting virus and my taste buds are not in great fettle!

Wonderful!

Okay, so let’s get the microscope out and take an even closer look. Again, having a clear view between what is directly experienced through the senses, and what are thoughts, is critically important for what we are doing here, so we want to take whatever time is necessary to be crystal clear on this point.

So I invite you to:

1. Read through your paragraph again, but this time remove all the ‘I’’Joyce’’my’‘me’ words as you read. Report back if it feels any different with these words removed.

2. Please make two lists. Name one list ‘Thoughts’ and the other list ‘Direct Experience. Then, please go back through your list above and separate the thoughts from what was directly experienced into the appropriate list.

3. When you have done that, go through your ‘Direct Experience’ list one more time and see if you can spot anything that might still be thought content, to include labels, assumptions, concepts, beliefs and/or memory. Of course we have to use memory, and some labels, to communicate in this case, but let’s really hone in on what is actually experienced and use minimal labels to try and describe what is being experienced, okay?

HINT: If it is directly experience you should be able to list the specific sensation (seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching/feeling) being experienced next to each word/sentence.

So for example:

When you say:” I can smell smoke distantly”. Is that what is REALLY being experienced? Take a look.
Or would it be more true to say that what is REALLY being experienced is ‘smelling’? Aren’t the words “I can smell smoke distantly” actually labels, assumptions, beliefs and memory?

So, ‘I can smell smoke distantly” would be more accurately described on the list as:

‘smelling’ – smell (sensation verification)

Okay, your turn. Have fun with it, and let me have your revised lists when you are done.

It is an honor to explore with you, Joyce.

With Love,
Linda

[Joyce]

Hi Linda,

Not sure what a PM is but seems we are on a new page and that threw me. Yes of course OK to come back to the sadness piece – very happy being guided.

So if I remove all the Is etc from the piece it reads:

The exercise is perfect in the current location as am staying in a hut down by a river – very peaceful. The river is right in front – it is more like a small brook and makes a beautiful babbling sound. The sun comes through the trees as dappled light although it is coming and going today as there are rainclouds and some thunder about. There are many birds about singing away. The occasional drop of rain is felt on the skin and the cool air touching skin – it is very still here. There is grass and foxgloves and ferns on the banks of the river. The smell of smoke distantly – someone must be having a bonfire? There is a sort of smell from the trees and the brook too if that makes sense. The odd insect also whizzes past. Not able to taste anything but that maybe because of recovering from a vomiting virus and taste buds are not in great fettle!

Yes it feels completely different – the word closer comes up – so although there is no mention of I, me etc it feels closer, more intimate, more beautiful as I read it – wonderful.

Not sure I have done the exercise quite correctly but hopefully it will do the job needed. I took the original sentence by sentence and put it under the heading thought or direct experience below.

Thoughts
The exercise is perfect for my current location as I am staying in a hut down by a river
it is more like a small brook
it is coming and going today as there are rainclouds and some thunder about.
There is grass and foxgloves and ferns on the banks of the river.
distantly – I guess someone must be having a bonfire?
if that makes sense
Not able to taste anything but that maybe because I am recovering from a vomiting virus and my taste buds are not in great fettle!

Direct experience
very peaceful - feeling
The river is right in front of me – seeing (feel there is a label here still about the river in relation to me but am trying to convey here that I see it directly – me can go)
makes a beautiful babbling sound – hearing
The sun comes through the trees as dappled light – seeing (again feel there is a label around the trees and dappled light but need to use that term to communicate?)
There are many birds about singing away – seeing and hearing (word birds used for communication)
I can feel the occasional drop of rain on my skin and the cool air touching me – it is very still here – all feelings (concept of me very strong here but can be taken out as in the second iteration of the paragraph)
I can smell smoke – smelling (I label here)
I can sort of smell the trees and the brook too – smelling (I label again and trees and brook – only smelling is the direct experience – I see that – the rest of the words are used to communicate and certainly the I is not necessary)
The odd insect also whizzes past me – feeling, seeing and hearing (me label could be removed – insect used for communication)

This exercise was really telling and helpful! I think I am beginning to understand the concept of using minimum labels and certainly I, me, Joyce is not necessary. What comes up very strongly after doing this is that when I am with a man I have thoughts around him often rather than just experiencing him directly. It is these thoughts that cause suffering as they linger when he doesn’t!

Thanks again Linda

Much gratitude

Joyce

[LindaR]

Hi Joyce,

Yes it feels completely different – the word closer comes up – so although there is no mention of I, me etc it feels closer, more intimate, more beautiful as I read it – wonderful.

Nice.

I think I am beginning to understand the concept of using minimum labels and certainly I, me, Joyce is not necessary.

It appears so :-). You are doing great!
So let’s look at this in a slightly different manner now.

you said:

The river is right in front of me
makes a beautiful babbling sound
The sun comes through the trees as dappled light
There are many birds about singing away
I can feel the occasional drop of rain on my skin and the cool air touching me – it is very still here.

Can you go through the sentences above and mark beside each word either an (E) if it was actually experienced (seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling), or a (T) if it is a thought (beliefs, assumptions, memory, concepts, labels,).

For example:

Makes (T) a (T) Beautiful (T) babbling (T) sound (E).

Okay, how about giving it a try? Send me what you come up with and share discoveries, if any.

With Love,
Linda

[Joyce]

Hi Linda,

I have to share that I feel quite overwhelmed by the care taken and time you spend with me. I know that’s Joyce in there but it’s my experience – not sure what it is – feels like more than gratitude – makes me tearful.

So to the job in hand:
The (T) river (T) is (T) right (T) in (T) front (T) of (T) me (T)
Makes (T) a (T) beautiful (T) babbling (T) sound (E)
The (T) sun (T) comes (T) through (T) the (T) trees (T) as (T) dappled (T) light (E)
There (T) are (T) many (T) birds (T) about (T) singing (E) away (T)
I (T) can (T) feel (E) the (T) occasional (T) drop (T) of (T) rain (T) on (T) my (T) skin (T) and (T) the (T) cool (T) air (T) touching (E) me (T) – it (T) is (T) very (T) still (E) here (T).

Realise not grasping this as well as I thought! Don’t feel absolutely confident in some ‘answers’ still i.e. light and still – both are experiential surely? Not at all sure about this. This is a new experience as mostly grasp things quickly – not bothered about being slow as long as progress is felt which it is. Tried not to use so many Is!
Thanks and love

Joyce

[LindaR]

Hi Joyce,

This is a new experience as mostly grasp things quickly – not bothered about being slow as long as progress is felt which it is. Tried not to use so many Is!

Sure, it can take some time to get used to focusing on what is actually being experienced as opposed to what is BELIEVE to be experienced (thoughts). You have been taught for xx years that thoughts, logic, intelligence, beliefs are what is to be valued and seen as reality.

But when we look to see what is actually happening we discover that thoughts are not capable of describing THIS, HERE, NOW. We discover that believing the content of thoughts is the very thing that cause so much unnecessary human suffering.

So, here we look to see what is actually happening. We switch the focus from believing the content of thoughts to LOOKING at what is actually occurring, and what has always been occurring.

In essence, we have two ways of experiencing. One is experiencing through thoughts, by believing the content to be true. The other way of experiencing is by looking at what is actually happening right NOW, HERE, which is simply sensing (seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling).

What is actually happening is always verifiable through the senses. It is the ONLY thing happening. The rest is a simply thought stories, that are believed and assumed to be true. We will continue to explore this until it is undeniably seen that 'I''Joyce' cannot be found, except as the content of thought.

Okay, let’s take a look at thoughts now. What I would like you to do is go sit out in nature somewhere for at least 30 minutes. While there, step out of the content of thoughts and just observe them. Be very curious about them, watching them, instead of participating with the content. While spending time observing thoughts, please consider the following question and send me your responses:

Where do thoughts come from?
Where are they going?
Can ‘you’ stop a thought from finishing?
Can ‘you’ predict what will be the next thought?
Can 'you' choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?
Do ‘you’ think thoughts? Or is ‘you’ ‘I’ ‘Joyce’ a thought?

And now please consider:
Can you find anything happening apart from experiencing with the senses (seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling)? Sure, thoughts arising are experienced too, but can the content of thought ever be accurate? What do you see?

I have to share that I feel quite overwhelmed by the care taken and time you spend with me. I know that’s Joyce in there but it’s my experience – not sure what it is – feels like more than gratitude – makes me tearful.

Sweetheart, it is a complete honor and joy to spend this time with you exploring.

Much Love,
Linda

[Joyce]

Hi Linda,

Am struggling with this - have notes. Will aim to reply in the morning.

Thanks for your patience.


Joyce

[LindaR]

Thanks for letting me know, Joyce. Take whatever time you need.
Remember to look at what is actually being experienced, not at the content of thoughts ;-). xx

[Joyce]

Thanks Linda,

Going to do it later today when there is free time so that I can go through it one more time with time.

Much gratitude

Joyce xx

[Joyce]

Hi Linda,

We will continue to explore this until it is undeniably seen that 'I''Joyce' cannot be found, except as the content of thought.

Thanks so much – there is a real sense of something wonderful happening and at the same time something in the way of seeing through Joyce.

Where do thoughts come from?

Some just appear as if from nowhere but there are others which feel like they are consciously generated such as thinking about what I am going to buy for supper. The latter aren’t the problem as they are not negative generally but would like to know how you contextualise them.

Where are they going?

I don’t know is what comes up but I do know that they stick around when I give them attention and only when I give them attention – when Joyce gives them attention! So when they are just noticed and left alone they dissipate quickly.

Can ‘you’ stop a thought from finishing?

No is the short answer. What ‘I’ can do is perpetuate it as described above.

Can ‘you’ predict what will be the next thought?

No although many thoughts are repetitive, particularly at times of stress so could have a good guess!

Can 'you' choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?

No

Do ‘you’ think thoughts? Or is ‘you’ ‘I’ ‘Joyce’ a thought?

I seem to think some thoughts as described above but these are not the troublesome ones. The question arises is something about if Joyce is a thought – how can she generate thoughts at all? Yet they are required for practical purposes
? I think the blocker is somewhere around here – too much mind I sense that but currently don’t know where else to go.

Can you find anything happening apart from experiencing with the senses (seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling)? Sure, thoughts arising are experienced too, but can the content of thought ever be accurate? What do you see?

Yes the senses and thoughts are experienced and that is all that is experienced. I can’t get past the consciously generated thoughts and the link or not to Joyce. I get at one level that Joyce is a thought – so can a thought generate a thought? Have that going round in circles feeling again.

Much love and thanks Linda

Joyce

[LindaR]

Hi Joyce,
Lots of good work here!

…but there are others which feel like they are consciously generated such as thinking about what I am going to buy for supper.

Okay, great. Let’s take a look and see if that is true. Remember, we are looking into what is actually experienced NOT what is thought to be experienced.

For the next few hours, maybe you would like to look into any event we would call decision/choice, and let me know what you see, from actual experience, as in real time. Describe two of these decisions/choices as simply and as plainly as you observe them.
This could be over what you mentioned: buying something for supper, or what drink to prepare for yourself, what to have for lunch, or what shirt to wear. Anything.

1. Do thoughts decide or choose? If so, at what specific point was the decision/choice made?
2. Do thoughts affect what happen or do they comment?
3. Please explain from actual experience how ‘consciously generated’ happens. Do you press a button to consciously generate a thought? How does this work?
4. What does ‘consciously generated’ feel like? Or is this a thought when looked into?
5. See if there is a chooser in the middle of it, if you see one, describe it.
6. See what factors come into play when decisions happen.

The question arises is something about if Joyce is a thought – how can she generate thoughts at all? Yet they are required for practical purposes

Is an entity required for thoughts to function? Is 'Joyce' needed for thoughts to arise? Is 'Joyce' needed for the heart to beat, the blood to pump? food to digest? Or do they all happen on their own?

Lots to look at here. Take whatever time you need on these exercises.

With Love,
Linda

[Joyce]

Thanks Linda. Much here. Will need time although something is feeling right.

Much love to you

Ruth

[Joyce]

Hi Linda,

Thanks for giving me the space to do this. It is a wonderful process as although I recognise all the questions (eventually) that you ask as places I have touched on before – I have never before slowed down enough to really experience and you are helping me do that. Such a gift. I already feel the relaxation of being able to step back and notice what have seemed as stuck situations.

So again to the job in hand:

Firstly to consider the apparent decision I made to attend a meeting at 2pm yesterday.

Do thoughts decide or choose? If so, at what specific point was the decision/choice made?

The thought came that I would go to the meeting. On close examination the thought was apparently stimulated by a phone call but came from nowhere as I realise do other thoughts that at first seem to be more proactively produced.

Do thoughts affect what happen or do they comment?

What actually happened was that the body got into the car and drove to the meeting. There were a few thoughts about what was going to happen at the meeting but they didn’t actually make the body move to the meeting – that just happened.

Please explain from actual experience how ‘consciously generated’ happens. Do you press a button to consciously generate a thought? How does this work?

No of course not – seems rather silly now.

What does ‘consciously generated’ feel like? Or is this a thought when looked into?

Yes this is a thought.

See if there is a chooser in the middle of it, if you see one, describe it.

No chooser found.

See what factors come into play when decisions happen. Is an entity required for thoughts to function? Is 'Joyce' needed for thoughts to arise?

No

Is 'Joyce' needed for the heart to beat, the blood to pump? food to digest? Or do they all happen on their own?

Yes they do happen on their own.

So if I consider the second situation which was about giving my dog Lizzie her supper. This is what happened as I experienced it. I saw Lizzie looking at me and it was the time of day when she usually has her supper. A thought came into my head that she would be hungry. I would say there might be some connection between external triggers and the thought but the thought definitely just arose – no Joyce produced it, pressed a button etc. This is strong now as I know that if I was distracted I could have all those triggers and the thought may not arise and the body may or may not move to feed Lizzie. In this case the body moved and did what was required to feed Lizzie. There was a lot of comment about how she was so beautiful and appreciative and what a joy she is in life but very clearly this was nothing to do with making the action happen. The body just moved. Feels good to say that and just notice the experience.

So now it feels like all thoughts arise spontaneously even though at a more superficial level it at first appears some are generated.

Much love and thanks to you Linda

Joyce

[LindaR]

Super looking, Joyce! Really good stuff in here.

So now it feels like all thoughts arise spontaneously even though at a more superficial level it at first appears some are generated.

Okay, great. So, it is seen that thoughts arise spontaneously. Could it be that they arise commenting on what is directly experienced? Sort of like a big labeling machine?

You noticed it with the meeting and with Lizzie. Concerning Lizzie you said:

I saw Lizzie looking at me and it was the time of day when she usually has her supper. A thought came into my head that she would be hungry. I would say there might be some connection between external triggers and the thought but the thought definitely just arose – no Joyce produced it

The actual experience was that you saw Lizzie looking at you.
THEN thoughts came up labeling that experience as “she is hungry” and ‘It is the time of day to feed her”. Correct?

Let’s stay with this a bit, okay? It is worth our time.

Maybe spend some time noticing what is directly experienced and how thoughts jump in on the act, labeling what is experienced. Watch this throughout the day. Take a notepad with you and write down a few of these experiences as you notice them. Write what the actual experience was, to include body sensations that are felt, and then write down a few of the thoughts that arose labeling the experience. Send me what you write down.

And as you do this, I would also like to invite you to watch closely with eagle eyes, and see if the body already started moving before the thought came up. We have been taught that thoughts create reality, but is this true? Does actual experience prove this out? Can a thought create anything? Or do they simply label? Let’s look and see.

Looking forward to reading what you come up with.

Sending Love,
Linda