Direct recognition of thoughts and self

[Nina45]

That seems very clear James.
Thought does appear and disappear without a reason that can be found!

Have another look at thought:

1. Thought seems to appear in a logical sequence of related thoughts. Is this actually the case?
Or is it another thought that says there is a logical sequence?

2. Thought seems to appear in chains that apparently makes a "story" or a linear sequence. Is this actually the case?
Or are there other thoughts that link thoughts into stories?

[duckHouse]

Hi Nina,

This was interested as there were some unexpected observations.

1. Thought seems to appear in a logical sequence of related thoughts. Is this actually the case?
Or is it another thought that says there is a logical sequence?

I saw thought switch topics very very fast, e.g. in response to sounds. Turns out it was just another thought that suggested there was a logical 'stream' of thoughts.

2. Thought seems to appear in chains that apparently makes a "story" or a linear sequence. Is this actually the case?
Or are there other thoughts that link thoughts into stories?

Similar to the above, it definitely looks like it's another thought that gives this impression of linear continuity, which isn't really there. The reality seems more like a constant switching between things which is faster than I can properly perceive.

Thanks

J

[Nina45]

Really great looking James!

Now have another look. Sit and look at thoughts for a few minutes.

I saw thought switch topics very very fast

What is this "I" that saw? What is it looking at thought?

Take it slowly. Look at thought and then look back at what is looking.

What is looking?

Very best wishes

Nina

[duckHouse]

What is this "I" that saw? What is it looking at thought?

I've been struggling with this one. Although it seems relatively simple to be aware of thoughts themselves, I can't figure out where to look to see what is looking.

It's like thoughts, colours, sounds etc. are just there to be seen in awareness, so long as attention isn't focused elsewhere, but I've no idea how to look at the awareness itself. Are there any pointers to help tackle it in stages?

Best

J

[Nina45]

Hi James,

Looking is going extremely well!

It's like thoughts, colours, sounds etc. are just there to be seen in awareness, so long as attention isn't focused elsewhere, but I've no idea how to look at the awareness itself.

Here are some pointers:

Pay attention to sound. Where does the listener end and sound begin?

Pay attention to colour. Where does colour end and the observer begin?

Pay attention to smell. Where does smell end and the smeller begin?

Pay attention to sensation. Where does sensation end and awareness begin?

Pay attention to taste. Where does taste end and taster begin?

Pay attention to thought. Where does thought end and the thinker begin?

Good luck!

Nina

Xxx

[duckHouse]

Where does sensation end and awareness begin?

Unfortunately I'm still really struggling with this for some reason. I can't seem to find where the 'observed' ends and the 'observer' begins - or find any trace of the observer really! It's still looking like all I have is the appearance itself.

On some level this seems expected since, logically, I accept there is no self. But on the other hand appearances seem dependent on where attention is placed, so I'd expect to be able to observe attention, ...perhaps. But I realise this is all just thought.

I'm continuing to try though, so will report back if I get anywhere.

Thanks

James

[Nina45]

Hahaha!

Keep looking James. Start with sound. Is it possible to find where exactly the sound ends and the listener begins? Taste and taster? Smell and Smeller.

Now. Where exactly does awareness begin and sensation end?

THEN:
What about the thinker? Is it possible to see a mental image of the thinker? Can a mental image of "James Thinking" be seen? Is it possible to see mental images of "James laughing"? Is it possible to see a whole range of Jameses doing different things in mental pictures? Dancing, changing nappies, eating breakfast, drinking water, swimming, driving, playing?

Keep going. Everything is great!

Nina

[duckHouse]

Hi,

I've been round the houses with this one several times now, and wound myself up somewhat!

Is it possible to find where exactly the sound ends and the listener begins? Taste and taster? Smell and Smeller.

I'm going to go with a simple 'no'! I thought I might be getting somewhere yesterday, then realised I was making things up in thought. So, at least for now, I'll conclude that all I can observe is the sound itself.

Where exactly does awareness begin and sensation end?

From what I've seen so far, I'd say they are inseparable.

Is it possible to see a mental image of the thinker? [...] Is it possible to see a whole range of Jameses doing different things in mental pictures?

Easy! Here I am flying over the house eating cake and thinking about finally seeing the illusion the self!

Best

J

[Nina45]

Hi John,

Great! There is no dividing line. This confirms that there is only sound, colour, smell, taste, sensation overlayed with thought. But keep looking!

Easy! Here I am flying over the house eating cake and thinking about finally seeing the illusion the self!

HaHa! GREAT!

Is it possible to look at all those selves? The sleeping "you", the flying "you", the eating "you", the washing "you"? Is it possible to see all those "selves" like a pack of cards or a hall of mirrors?

Have a good look at all these mental pictures of "you".

Is it possible to find an "I" or "self" anywhere other than in thought?

Is thought the only place "I" exists?

Good luck looking!

Nina

Xxx

[Nina45]

Sorry!! JAMES.

[duckHouse]

This confirms that there is only sound, colour, smell, taste, sensation overlayed with thought.

I like that description, that thought is overlayed on top. It feels like this is starting to sink in just a little.

Is it possible to see all those "selves" like a pack of cards or a hall of mirrors?

Yes, that makes a lot of sense to me, and seems particularly interesting with regard to self referencing thoughts/ego. As though a deck of 'self' cards is called upon at various times.

Is it possible to find an "I" or "self" anywhere other than in thought? Is thought the only place "I" exists?

I can't see any place for self other then thought, though perhaps there are other exercises I should consider to look more deeply and be more confident.

Many thanks

James

[Nina45]

Hi James,

It seems that things are becoming clearer ..... but please, please LOOK and don't let thought take over! Everything is about looking .... not about thought.

I like that description, that thought is overlayed on top.

What is this "I" that likes this?
Where is the location of the "I" exactly?

Is "like" a thought or a sensation?

I can't see any place for self other then thought,

Where is this "I" that can't see?
Where is the location of the "I" exactly?

What is it that is looking at thought?

Ok! Exercises ... let's go.

What is a rose?
Perhaps a nice red and green flower with a pleasant smell and some sharp thorns?
But look again - all that is ‘actually’ present are red and green, a nice smell and maybe an 'ouch' sensation. The ‘rose itself’ is only a story.
Notice that all things that seem to exist are just like the rose, just fictional stories about experience. Beyond the story, can any of them be found to exist at all?

LOOK at any object. What is it that labels the object? What Is it that creates a story about the object?
What is the actual experience of the object?
Does the object know anything about the label or the story?

Please answer all the questions using the quote function!

Thanks.

Best wishes

Nina
Xxx

[duckHouse]

Hi Nina,

Thanks for this. I’ll get on with the exercises, but could we have a momentary digression for a question on a thought of concern?

It appears that self referencing language (“I” this, “I” that...) is becoming a sticking point and a thought has arisen: “if I don’t use ‘I’ when I write/talk then I’m going to sound like a robot”. E.g. “I can’t see it” becomes “it is not seen”!

Presumably you’re not suggesting that language should be manipulated, but highlighting places where you think I’m "automatically" thinking without fully realising it? Ultimately, does it become OK again to use “I” in language?

Right, on with the exercises, with renewed and epic effort to focus on looking!

Best

James

[Nina45]

Hi James!

"I" is a part of language and we have to use it. The point here is to look at the part language plays in the illusion. Think about gender - how much does language insist that we split people into either male or female? Animals into species. Plants into categories. Flowers into roses and buttercups. Roses into petals and stalks.How does this create an illusion?

So what does it mean when "I" is used? Question it every time. It is the point of this inquiry!
Is it just a sign or is it an identification with a constructed seperate self?

Thanks for the excellent question .... now look for the answer in actual experience.

Very best from "me"

Nina
Xxx

[duckHouse]

Here comes some serious quoting…

What is this "I" that likes this?
Where is the location of the "I" exactly?

I can’t find any “I” other than in thought. The thought's claim a location of ‘here’.

Is "like" a thought or a sensation?

From memory, a thought. Also from memory, in some cases there is a sensation like a tingling on the skin.

Where is this "I" that can't see?
Where is the location of the "I" exactly?

As above, on closer inspection it’s illusory.

What is a rose?

A flower with nasty sharp bits! (sounds like a joke, but it seems hard to get past the ‘interpretation’)

Perhaps a nice red and green flower with a pleasant smell and some sharp thorns?

Exactly!

Notice that all things that seem to exist are just like the rose, just fictional stories about experience. Beyond the story, can any of them be found to exist at all?

… hmmmm. This ‘table’... I have a sensation of a hard surface. That appears to exist.

LOOK at any object. What is it that labels the object?

A thought taking the form of words or reference to some ‘concept’ (another thought).

What Is it that creates a story about the object?

Thought again, e.g. ownership, familiarity, feelings. Taking this further and asking what creates the thoughts… unknown. They just seem to arise on their own.

What is the actual experience of the object?

It’s difficult to say. Thought seems to arise whether attended to or not, so the underlying ‘raw’ experience appears somewhat masked. But it seems possible to specifically bring attention to certain aspects of experience, such as edges, colours, textures etc.

Does the object know anything about the label or the story?

[long pause] Nothing in direct experience seems to answer that question… wouldn't any answer be just be another story?

So what does it mean when "I" is used? […] Is it just a sign or is it an identification with a constructed seperate self?

Most of the time “I" appears to be an identification with a separate self… though often very subtle. Claims about direct experience of the form “I see…” appear to be amongst the few cases where it’s not self referencing.

Best

James