Requesting a guide

[Nina45]

Hi Nina,

Is there a "feeling" of an "I" or a separate self?
Does the sense of a separate self have a sensation?
If so, does the sensation have a location?

There is an impersonal felt presence that seems to be centered in this "body".

Is it possible to point to the impersonal felt presence?
In actual experience what is impersonal felt presence exactly: Is it sensation, thought, smell, sound, colour/ image or taste?

(please could you answer both questions separately? It may seem tedious but it really helps with clarity.)

Is there an "I" that exists beyond language? Or is it just a part of language?

"I" is just a thought that is a part of language.

Great - it is no more than a sign.

Try dropping the "I" from activities.
"I am walking" to just "walking"
"eating", "driving", "smiling", "Lying on the bed", "talking"
Is the experience any different?

The experience feels more "immediate" and "lighter".

Yes :)
There is no one walking. There is no separate individual doing anything. There is just experience unfolding.

This is an exercise to help with really focusing on Actual Experience (AE):

Label each experience simply image/colour, sound, smell, taste, sensation or thought.

So as you become aware of:
Seeing a tree, simply = image/colour
Smelling the coffee = smell,
Feel the wind on your face = sensation.
Tasting the toothpaste on your toothbrush = taste
Hearing a car drive by = sound
Thought about work = thought. (Thoughts can be words and mental images)

Just break down all experiences into these categories (which are all actual experience) and report back how it goes.

What is controlling all these "I"s?

Nothing that can be observed directly.

No. Nothing can be found. :)

What is doing the observing?

Nothing is doing the observing but there is a felt presence that accompanies it.

What is the felt presence in actual experience?
Is it possible to exactly locate the felt presence?
Does it have a sound, colour, smell, taste or sensation? Or is it a thought?
Where does observing finish and felt presence begin exactly?

(Please answer all questions individually again!)

So it is clear that there is no navigator?

There is no navigator...this is just a belief.

Fabulous!

So it is clear there is no predictor or controller?

There is no predictor or controller...these are just beliefs.

Indeed - they are beliefs (or thought stories)

No filing system then?

It's as if there were a self-organizing system with no one in charge. (But "self-organizing system" is just an idea.)

It is just a story!

Is it possible to find a director?
Or is there a thought about being able to direct the thinking process?

There is no director. It does seem possible to direct thought to a particular subject, and think logically about things. For example, in responding to these questions there's a process that seems to formulate relevant thoughts. But actually the thoughts arise by themselves and "languaging" constructs sentences from them. The "languaging" process is sort of like labelling thoughts, similar to the way thoughts label things. It does not direct the thoughts but sort of wraps around them.

Great idea! - "languaging". How we lay concepts on what is actually there.
Here is another exercise that may help to clarify this:

What is a rose?
Perhaps a nice red and green flower with a pleasant smell and some sharp thorns?
But look again - all that is ‘actually’ present are red and green, a nice smell and maybe an 'ouch' sensation.
The ‘rose itself’ is only a story.
Notice that all things that seem to exist are just like the rose, just fictional stories about experience.
Beyond the story, can any of them be found to exist at all?

Is it possible to find a builder?
Or are there thoughts connecting one thought to another?
Are there connecting thoughts which link thoughts in a story?

There is no builder. Thoughts arise and "languaging" articulates them into logical structures and stories.

Are logical structures just more stories?

Is it possible to find a processor?
Or is that just another thought?
"Even before thought arises" ..... is that a thought about thought arising?

There is no processor. It's just a thought. "Even before thought arises" is just a thought. "Arising" is a thought, too. It's just a label to describe the momentary appearance of a thought.

Fabulous looking!

Is the label "attached" to the sensation? Or does it just seem to be attached?
Are the sensation and label linked by the storytelling process?

The label is not really attached to the sensation. It's just a response from the labeling mind that happens so quickly that it seems to be connected to the sensation. The storytelling process uses labels to describe and communicate sensations, but there isn't a direct connection.

This seems really clear John. Great looking.
Actual experience of sensation + actual experience of thought label "feeling"

Let me know how the exercises go!

Best wishes

Nina

[Nina45]

Oh dear. I'm calling you Nina now. Sorry!

[Brookside]

Hi Nina,

Is there a "feeling" of an "I" or a separate self?
Does the sense of a separate self have a sensation?
If so, does the sensation have a location?

There is an impersonal felt presence that seems to be centered in this "body".

Is it possible to point to the impersonal felt presence?

Not really. It's just a general sensation of "whole body" which includes the pointing finger.

In actual experience what is impersonal felt presence exactly: Is it sensation, thought, smell, sound, colour/ image or taste?

It is a sensation.

This is an exercise to help with really focusing on Actual Experience (AE):

Label each experience simply image/colour, sound, smell, taste, sensation or thought.

So as you become aware of:
Seeing a tree, simply = image/colour
Smelling the coffee = smell,
Feel the wind on your face = sensation.
Tasting the toothpaste on your toothbrush = taste
Hearing a car drive by = sound
Thought about work = thought. (Thoughts can be words and mental images)

Just break down all experiences into these categories (which are all actual experience) and report back how it goes.

It's a little tedious at first and there's a lot of drifting around. But when the labeling is fairly continuous, there are fewer thoughts and sense perceptions seem brighter. The experiences shift a lot between categories and only last a moment.

What is doing the observing?

Nothing is doing the observing but there is a felt presence that accompanies it.

What is the felt presence in actual experience?

The felt presence is a sensation of the "whole body".

Is it possible to exactly locate the felt presence?

It is "contained" by the body.

Does it have a sound, colour, smell, taste or sensation?

It is a sensation.

Or is it a thought?

Ah...there is also a thought about "felt presence" that labels the sensation.

Where does observing finish and felt presence begin exactly?

Hmm...now it seems that felt presence is just an idea, and there really is just observing/looking.

Great idea! - "languaging". How we lay concepts on what is actually there.

Here is another exercise that may help to clarify this:

What is a rose?
Perhaps a nice red and green flower with a pleasant smell and some sharp thorns?
But look again - all that is ‘actually’ present are red and green, a nice smell and maybe an 'ouch' sensation.
The ‘rose itself’ is only a story.
Notice that all things that seem to exist are just like the rose, just fictional stories about experience.
Beyond the story, can any of them be found to exist at all?

So on the previous question, all that is present is observing, and the "felt presence" is just a story about some mysterious being that accompanies it:-)

Is it possible to find a builder?
Or are there thoughts connecting one thought to another?
Are there connecting thoughts which link thoughts in a story?

There is no builder. Thoughts arise and "languaging" articulates them into logical structures and stories.

Are logical structures just more stories?

Yes, they are from the same process.

Best regards,
John/Nina

[Nina45]

Hi John,

Just break down all experiences into these categories (which are all actual experience) and report back how it goes.

It's a little tedious at first and there's a lot of drifting around. But when the labeling is fairly continuous, there are fewer thoughts and sense perceptions seem brighter. The experiences shift a lot between categories and only last a moment.

Great! Yes, with a little practice it makes a real difference. It is possible to find things that defy labels and this can really help with the letting go of "languaging". For example, an old fallen tree in a forest. It is not a tree, it is not a log, it may even defy the label "wood". It is not bark, branches or just moss. It does seem to be a whole ecosystem for small animals and bugs ..... but more than that? Is it an old Zen trick to try to find the dogness in the dog? The treeness in the tree? The carness in the car?

What is the felt presence in actual experience?

The felt presence is a sensation of the "whole body".

Is it possible to exactly locate the felt presence?

It is "contained" by the body.

Does it have a sound, colour, smell, taste or sensation?

It is a sensation.

Or is it a thought?

Ah...there is also a thought about "felt presence" that labels the sensation.

Where does observing finish and felt presence begin exactly?

Hmm...now it seems that felt presence is just an idea, and there really is just observing/looking.

This is wonderful!! Seeing the "penny drop" or the "water become clearer".

[

quote]What is a rose?
Perhaps a nice red and green flower with a pleasant smell and some sharp thorns?
But look again - all that is ‘actually’ present are red and green, a nice smell and maybe an 'ouch' sensation.
The ‘rose itself’ is only a story.
Notice that all things that seem to exist are just like the rose, just fictional stories about experience.
Beyond the story, can any of them be found to exist at all?

So on the previous question, all that is present is observing, and the "felt presence" is just a story about some mysterious being that accompanies it:-)
[/quote]

Really wonderful John! Lovely, lovely, lovely.

Are logical structures just more stories?

Yes, they are from the same process.

Yes. ;)

Let's go back to this for a minute:

Is it possible to point to the impersonal felt presence?

Not really. It's just a general sensation of "whole body" which includes the pointing finger.

What is the "whole body" in actual experience?

Here is an exercise to help with this question:

Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes.
Pay attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?

In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside, the outside of what exactly?

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

Look very carefully, especially with the last question. Take your time, don’t rush. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc.) before replying.

Have some fun with it!

Very best wishes

Nina
xx

[Brookside]

Hi Nina,

What is the "whole body" in actual experience?

The experience is a variety of things: pressure, release, movement, pulsing, warmth, twinging, aching, heaviness, etc.

Here is an exercise to help with this question:

Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes.
Pay attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is?

No this is just a thought. The actual experience of the body seems more compact than the concept about how it looks.

Does the body have a weight or volume?

There seems to be a feeling of "heaviness" and "substance" but in reality there's just pressure or the absence of pressure. "Heaviness" and "substance" are concepts.

In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Nope.

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?

No, there are just "soft" or "scratchy" sensations.

Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

No there's just the sensation of pressure.

Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - inside of what exactly?

There is no inside or outside, just the various sensations. They seem to occur at different points in space, but the sense of location is really just a thought.

If there is an outside, the outside of what exactly?

"Outside" is just a concept.

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?

With eyes closed, "body" is sensation. With eyes open, "body" may also include image and color in addition to sensation.

What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

Sensation!

With gratitude,
John

[Nina45]

Hi John,

The looking is going really, really well.
A little more looking is needed to see through the thoughts ......

[

quote]Does the body have a weight or volume?

There seems to be a feeling of "heaviness" and "substance" but in reality there's just pressure or the absence of pressure. "Heaviness" and "substance" are concepts.
[/quote]

Yes. Sensation is the actual experience of sensation.
Thought is the actual experience of thought - in this case the thought labels "Heaviness" and "substance".

In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Nope.

Great. No shape and form.
In actual experience there is sensation, colour, smell, taste, sound and thought.

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?

No, there are just "soft" or "scratchy" sensations.

Yes - just the actual experience of sensation
......and thought labels "soft" and "scratchy".

Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

No there's just the sensation of pressure.

Yes - just the actual experience of sensation
... and the thought label "pressure".

Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - inside of what exactly?

There is no inside or outside, just the various sensations. They seem to occur at different points in space, but the sense of location is really just a thought.

Wonderful looking. Sensation + thought labels "inside", "outside" or "location" or "space".

If there is an outside, the outside of what exactly?

"Outside" is just a concept.

:o)

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?

With eyes closed, "body" is sensation. With eyes open, "body" may also include image and color in addition to sensation.

sensation is the actual experience of sensation
taste is the actual experience of taste
sound is the actual experience of sound
taste is the actual experience of taste
colour is the actual experience of colour.
Thought is the actual experience of thought.

Looking again, What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?

What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

Sensation!

Sensation is the actual experience of sensation
So what is body in actual experience?

To clarify ... try this:

"Imagine" this: ‘You’ are sitting in a chair, eating popcorn watching TV (Story). What are the smells, sounds, colours, tastes and sensations that arise?

The thought/sentence 'you are sitting in a chair, eating popcorn watching TV’ is the actual experience (AE) of 'thought' and NOT the AE of 'you sitting in a chair, eating popcorn watching TV'.

The sensation that is associated with the chair that SEEMS to be ‘pressure of the chair against the body’ is the actual experience (AE) of ‘sensation’ and NOT the AE of ‘chair’ or ‘body’.

The sound the TV seems to make is the AE of ‘sound’ and is not the AE of ‘TV’ or ‘hearing’

The body that is seemingly ‘seen’ sitting in a chair is the AE of ‘colour/images’ and not the AE of ‘body’ or ‘seeing/sight’.

The seeming smell of 'popcorn' is the AE of ‘smell’ and not the AE of ‘popcorn’

The seeming taste of ‘popcorn’ is the AE of ‘taste’ and not the AE of ‘popcorn’.

Mental images may not always be seen, however there is an idea of what is being referred to and where on the ‘body’ it is pointing to.

So when you see 'yourself' sitting in a chair and you see ‘legs’, ‘arms’, and ‘stomach’, is that not recognisable as actual experience of colour/image of 'parts of the body'?

Really look. Say "shoulder", "leg", "arms", "elbow", "nose" ..... what is the actual experience?

Good luck with the looking!

Best wishes

Nina

[Brookside]

Hi Nina,

sensation is the actual experience of sensation
taste is the actual experience of taste
sound is the actual experience of sound
taste is the actual experience of taste
colour is the actual experience of colour.
Thought is the actual experience of thought.

Looking again, What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?

The word/label "body" actually refers to a thought, a mental picture of a body that I assume is "here".

Sensation is the actual experience of sensation
So what is body in actual experience?

In actual experience, body is a thought, a mental image of something that is composed of various parts, can perform various activities, has a certain shape, etc.

To clarify ... try this:

"Imagine" this: ‘You’ are sitting in a chair, eating popcorn watching TV (Story). What are the smells, sounds, colours, tastes and sensations that arise?

The thought/sentence 'you are sitting in a chair, eating popcorn watching TV’ is the actual experience (AE) of 'thought' and NOT the AE of 'you sitting in a chair, eating popcorn watching TV'.

The sensation that is associated with the chair that SEEMS to be ‘pressure of the chair against the body’ is the actual experience (AE) of ‘sensation’ and NOT the AE of ‘chair’ or ‘body’.

The sound the TV seems to make is the AE of ‘sound’ and is not the AE of ‘TV’ or ‘hearing’

The body that is seemingly ‘seen’ sitting in a chair is the AE of ‘colour/images’ and not the AE of ‘body’ or ‘seeing/sight’.

The seeming smell of 'popcorn' is the AE of ‘smell’ and not the AE of ‘popcorn’

The seeming taste of ‘popcorn’ is the AE of ‘taste’ and not the AE of ‘popcorn’.

Mental images may not always be seen, however there is an idea of what is being referred to and where on the ‘body’ it is pointing to.

So when you see 'yourself' sitting in a chair and you see ‘legs’, ‘arms’, and ‘stomach’, is that not recognisable as actual experience of colour/image of 'parts of the body'?

Really look. Say "shoulder", "leg", "arms", "elbow", "nose" ..... what is the actual experience?

When I look at my leg the actual experience is color/image. If I just say "leg" without looking at my leg, the actual experience is thought.

Best regards,
John

[Nina45]

Hi John,

It is a beautiful day here! Clear, blue sky and views of a dark blue sea and green fields. A rare thing on the English coast! (Story)
Is there a mental image/colour that arises in response to this description?

The word/label "body" actually refers to a thought, a mental picture of a body that I assume is "here".

Yes, for a lot of people there is a mental image that accompanies the thought label "body".

Where is the "I" that is assuming the body is here?

Is there a mental image of the "I" that is assuming a body is "here"?

Sensation is the actual experience of sensation
So what is body in actual experience?

In actual experience, body is a thought, a mental image of something that is composed of various parts, can perform various activities, has a certain shape, etc.

There is the thought label "body" and the actual experience of image/colour (in this case a mental image).

"Imagine" a mental image of "you" waking in the morning; "you" getting out of bed; "you" eating; you typing; you reading; you walking; you talking. "You" a moment ago and "you" in the future.

Imagine all the images of "you"s laid out like a pack of cards or like a hall of mirrors.

Is it possible to find an image of "you" other than in a mental image?
Is there an "I" or "self" anywhere outside thought?

When I look at my leg the actual experience is color/image. If I just say "leg" without looking at my leg, the actual experience is thought.

Yes; there is the thought label "leg", maybe accompanied by a mental image/colour.

What are "I" and "self" and "body" in actual experience?

Does an "I", "self" or "body" exist anywhere in any form?

Did "I", "self" or "body" ever exist?

Very best wishes

Nina

[Brookside]

Hi Nina,

It is a beautiful day here! Clear, blue sky and views of a dark blue sea and green fields. A rare thing on the English coast! (Story)
Is there a mental image/colour that arises in response to this description?

Yes, the description evokes several colorful images and also pleasant feelings.

Yes, for a lot of people there is a mental image that accompanies the thought label "body".

Where is the "I" that is assuming the body is here?

In this case, "I" is a thought of "an invisible someone who inhabits the body".

Is there a mental image of the "I" that is assuming a body is "here"?

Yes, there is a mental image of an invisible person or spirit.

"Imagine" a mental image of "you" waking in the morning; "you" getting out of bed; "you" eating; you typing; you reading; you walking; you talking. "You" a moment ago and "you" in the future.

Imagine all the images of "you"s laid out like a pack of cards or like a hall of mirrors.

Is it possible to find an image of "you" other than in a mental image?

No, all of these "you"s are imaginary.

Is there an "I" or "self" anywhere outside thought?

No, they are imaginary.

What are "I" and "self" and "body" in actual experience?

"I" and "self" are mental images that refer to nothing in the physical world. "Body" is a mental image that does refer to something in the physical world.

Does an "I", "self" or "body" exist anywhere in any form?

"I" and "self" are formless, but "body" refers to something that has a form.

Did "I", "self" or "body" ever exist?

"I" and "self" don't refer to anything that ever really existed in form. But "body" does seem to refer to something real, similar to the way that the label "cat" refers to something real. "Cat" is a label, and the actual experience of a cat is one of color (black), sensation (soft), sound (meow), etc. "Body" is a label, and the actual experience of a body is color (pink), sensation (warm), sound (breathing), etc. "I" and "self" are labels, and their actual experience is only thought.

Need to continue looking at this as it still feels a bit conceptual!

Best regards,
John

[Nina45]

Hello John!

Need to continue looking at this as it still feels a bit conceptual!

Yes, for the first time in this conversation it is as if thought is getting in the way of looking!
Sometimes thought can seem like a "barrier".
There could be "fear" or "resistance" - (sensation + the thought labels "fear" and "resistance") which can seem of "confuse" looking (confusion is just another thought).
Look at the thoughts and sensations that arise in response to the following questions. Is there "fear" or "resistance" or indeed "confusion"?

Where is the "I" that is assuming the body is here?

In this case, "I" is a thought of "an invisible someone who inhabits the body".

There is a thought story about "an invisible someone who inhabits the body".
Is there also a sensation that seems to indicate the presence of an "invisible someone"?
What is the exact location of the "invisible someone".
Is there a taste, sound or smell of the "invisible someone"?
(Please answer all questions separately)

Is there a mental image of the "I" that is assuming a body is "here"?

Yes, there is a mental image of an invisible person or spirit.

There is a mental image/colour of an "invisible person or spirit".
As image/colour is the actual experience of image/colour, is it possible that the actual experience of image/colour is of something invisible? The absence of colour?
In actual experience, what is "invisible person" or "spirit"?
Does this have a location?
A smell?
A taste?
A sound?
A sensation?

Have a look and answer all the questions separately.

What are "I" and "self" and "body" in actual experience?

"I" and "self" are mental images that refer to nothing in the physical world. "Body" is a mental image that does refer to something in the physical world.

Yes, there is a distinction.
"I" and "self" are thoughts. They are imaginary, like Santa or a Unicorn.
"Body" (like "table") seems to refer to something in the "real world".
However, the actual experience of the label "body" is THOUGHT
In actual experience there is only sound, colour, smell, taste, sensation overlayed with thought.

Really study the "face" in a mirror, are there parts of the face that do not have a label?
Are there parts of the actual experience that can not be described in language?
The spaces between the "cheek" and "nose" and chin"? Between the "eye brow" and the "eye lid"?
Are there words for the enormous variety of "textures" and colours? Is there really a word for the facial expression? Is there a word of the shape of the eyes?
Is "face" just a thought story?
Touch the face - is there any relationship between the sensation and the reflection in the mirror?
Is there any indication in this actual experience of colour that there is a "body" anywhere?
Is "body" just a thought story?

Here is an exercise to help with this:

In a desert, dying of thirst, could you quench your thirst just by thinking about water (thoughts) or would you need to drink ‘real’ liquid?

Let’s say in the desert someone offers two options:

(1) There is a piece of paper with the word ‘water’ written on it, and
(2) There is a bottle of "water liquid".

Which one would you choose to quench your thirst, the label or the real liquid?

So, can the label ‘water’, which is actual experience (AE) of thought, quench your thirst?

The actual experience of thought in real, but the content of thought is not real.

The thing that we call "water" would quench the thirst whatever the thought label attached to it.

Is this clear?

Does an "I", "self" or "body" exist anywhere in any form?

"I" and "self" are formless, but "body" refers to something that has a form.

What is "form" in actual experience?
What is "formless" in actual experience?

Is it thought, sensation, colour, smell, taste or sound?

Did "I", "self" or "body" ever exist?

"I" and "self" don't refer to anything that ever really existed in form. But "body" does seem to refer to something real, similar to the way that the label "cat" refers to something real. "Cat" is a label, and the actual experience of a cat is one of color (black), sensation (soft), sound (meow), etc. "Body" is a label, and the actual experience of a body is color (pink), sensation (warm), sound (breathing), etc. "I" and "self" are labels, and their actual experience is only thought.

Where do "I" and "self" exist in actual experience?
What is "body" in actual experience?
What is "cat" in actual experience?

Does the thought label "cat" say anything about the associated actual experience of colour, sensation, sound and smell?
Does the thought label "body" say anything about the associated actual experience of colour, sensation, sound, smell and taste?

Very best wishes

Nina
xxx

[Brookside]

Hi Nina!

Sometimes thought can seem like a "barrier".
There could be "fear" or "resistance" - (sensation + the thought labels "fear" and "resistance") which can seem of "confuse" looking (confusion is just another thought).
Look at the thoughts and sensations that arise in response to the following questions. Is there "fear" or "resistance" or indeed "confusion"?

Where is the "I" that is assuming the body is here?

There is some resistance to looking for this "I", but mainly some confusion about how to do it. The looking feels more like thinking, like trying to figure something out, which just spirals into more confusion. Sitting quietly and looking at thoughts that arise is challenging, but feels more natural than trying to look at a specific assumption or thought. The act of trying to look at something specific (like "the 'I' that is assuming the body is here") seems to alter the process and turns it into more of a thinking exercise.

In this case, "I" is a thought of "an invisible someone who inhabits the body".

There is a thought story about "an invisible someone who inhabits the body".
Is there also a sensation that seems to indicate the presence of an "invisible someone"?

There is a sensation of basic "aliveness" for lack of a better word.

What is the exact location of the "invisible someone".

It exists throughout the body.

Is there a taste, sound or smell of the "invisible someone"?

It has sound (a voice) and sensation (aliveness) but no taste or smell. This is clearly a thought story because nothing is really there. But the experience is as described, i.e., the thought story seems real even if nothing real underlies it.
(Please answer all questions separately)

Is there a mental image of the "I" that is assuming a body is "here"?

Yes, there is a mental image of an invisible person or spirit.

There is a mental image/colour of an "invisible person or spirit".
As image/colour is the actual experience of image/colour, is it possible that the actual experience of image/colour is of something invisible? The absence of colour?

Not really. But can't thoughts also be concepts and memories of sounds and sensations, in addition to visual images? In this case, there's a concept of an invisible person.

In actual experience, what is "invisible person" or "spirit"?

Sensation (aliveness), sound (voice), and thought (concept)

Does this have a location?

The body

A smell?

No

A taste?

No

A sound?

Yes it has a voice, the "voice in the head".

A sensation?

Yes, a basic feeling of "aliveness"

What are "I" and "self" and "body" in actual experience?

"I" and "self" are mental images that refer to nothing in the physical world. "Body" is a mental image that does refer to something in the physical world.

Yes, there is a distinction.
"I" and "self" are thoughts. They are imaginary, like Santa or a Unicorn.
"Body" (like "table") seems to refer to something in the "real world".
However, the actual experience of the label "body" is THOUGHT
In actual experience there is only sound, colour, smell, taste, sensation overlayed with thought.

It's clear that the actual experience of any label is thought. But the label "body" still seems to refer to something real, i.e., something that has sound, color, smell, taste and sensation.

Really study the "face" in a mirror, are there parts of the face that do not have a label?

Yes but thought tries to label them in reference to other parts, like the "space between the cheek and eye".

Are there parts of the actual experience that can not be described in language?

Yes but thought still tries to describe them anyway.

The spaces between the "cheek" and "nose" and chin"? Between the "eye brow" and the "eye lid"?
Are there words for the enormous variety of "textures" and colours? Is there really a word for the facial expression? Is there a word of the shape of the eyes?

Not specifically, but thought creates descriptions like "almond-like eyes", etc.

Is "face" just a thought story?

So when there isn't a specific label that can immediately pop into the mind, a more elaborate thought story is created to explain it.

Touch the face - is there any relationship between the sensation and the reflection in the mirror?

There's only a relationship through thought, not in actual experience.

Is there any indication in this actual experience of colour that there is a "body" anywhere?

No

Is "body" just a thought story?

It is a thought story that seems to refer to something real, or to a collection of real things that can be individually labelled. If I slap my leg there's a sensation (slap) + a thought story about how my leg is part of my body and I better avoid slapping it too much otherwise it may get injured.

Here is an exercise to help with this:

In a desert, dying of thirst, could you quench your thirst just by thinking about water (thoughts) or would you need to drink ‘real’ liquid?

Let’s say in the desert someone offers two options:

(1) There is a piece of paper with the word ‘water’ written on it, and
(2) There is a bottle of "water liquid".

Which one would you choose to quench your thirst, the label or the real liquid?

Obviously the real liquid

So, can the label ‘water’, which is actual experience (AE) of thought, quench your thirst?

Of course not

The actual experience of thought in real, but the content of thought is not real.

The thing that we call "water" would quench the thirst whatever the thought label attached to it.

Is this clear?

Yes

Does an "I", "self" or "body" exist anywhere in any form?

"I" and "self" are formless, but "body" refers to something that has a form.

What is "form" in actual experience?

Thought

What is "formless" in actual experience?

Thought

Is it thought, sensation, colour, smell, taste or sound?

Thought

Did "I", "self" or "body" ever exist?

"I" and "self" don't refer to anything that ever really existed in form. But "body" does seem to refer to something real, similar to the way that the label "cat" refers to something real. "Cat" is a label, and the actual experience of a cat is one of color (black), sensation (soft), sound (meow), etc. "Body" is a label, and the actual experience of a body is color (pink), sensation (warm), sound (breathing), etc. "I" and "self" are labels, and their actual experience is only thought.

Where do "I" and "self" exist in actual experience?

Thought

What is "body" in actual experience?

Thought

What is "cat" in actual experience?

Thought

Does the thought label "cat" say anything about the associated actual experience of colour, sensation, sound and smell?

No

Does the thought label "body" say anything about the associated actual experience of colour, sensation, sound, smell and taste?

No

Hmm...so in actual experience all of these things are just thoughts or thought stories.

So in actual experience...
"I" is a thought story.
"Self" is a thought story.
"The 'I' that assumes the body is here" is a thought story.
"Body" is a thought story.
An "invisible person who inhabits the body" is a thought story.
"Aliveness" seems like sensation + thought label ("aliveness") but is really just a thought story.
The "voice in the head" is a thought story.
"Face" is a thought story.
"Touching the cheek" is sensation + thought story.
"Cat" is a thought story.

Thought is quite pervasive!
In actual experience, it seems that things don't really exist, at least not in the way thought assumes they do. Thoughts exist, but only as thoughts. The belief that there is something underlying a thought is just another thought.

Best regards,
John

[Nina45]

Hi John - I've just noticed that my post to you today seems to have got lost! I will have to try again later.

[Brookside]

Hi Nina - Thanks for letting me know. I hope you don't have to recreate it! Did you check the "saved" folder?

[Nina45]

Alas! It seems I may have previewed and then forgot to post!

[Nina45]

Hi John,

So in actual experience...
"I" is a thought story.
"Self" is a thought story.
"The 'I' that assumes the body is here" is a thought story.
"Body" is a thought story.
An "invisible person who inhabits the body" is a thought story.
"Aliveness" seems like sensation + thought label ("aliveness") but is really just a thought story.
The "voice in the head" is a thought story.
"Face" is a thought story.
"Touching the cheek" is sensation + thought story.
"Cat" is a thought story.

Yes to all of those.
But there is actual experience of sensation and actual experience of thought (it is definitely happening!).
It is just the content of thought that is not real.

Thought is quite pervasive!
In actual experience, it seems that things don't really exist, at least not in the way thought assumes they do. Thoughts exist, but only as thoughts. The belief that there is something underlying a thought is just another thought.

Thought is both pervasive and persuasive!
Thought can seem so subtle that it does not even seem like thought. Thought is pretty chaotic and other thoughts seem to make sense of them, chaining the thoughts into stories.

Like here:

Where is the "I" that is assuming the body is here?

There is some resistance to looking for this "I", but mainly some confusion about how to do it. The looking feels more like thinking, like trying to figure something out, which just spirals into more confusion. Sitting quietly and looking at thoughts that arise is challenging, but feels more natural than trying to look at a specific assumption or thought. The act of trying to look at something specific (like "the 'I' that is assuming the body is here") seems to alter the process and turns it into more of a thinking exercise.

Thought is a habit and Looking at thought is not a habit. Doing anything new can seem difficult ..... but is this case it is actually trying to do something very very simple. Just Looking. Like looking at a picture in order to find colour.
There is a thought about confusion and there is a thought about thinking. The thinking and confusion seems to spiral into story about spiralling confusion.

Watch thought for a couple of minutes ... like "clouds in the sky" or a "river flowing by"
Then start looking for a thinker.
Does thinking have a sensation?
Where does thinking start and thought end?

Is there a taste, sound or smell of the "invisible someone"?

It has sound (a voice) and sensation (aliveness) but no taste or smell. This is clearly a thought story because nothing is really there. But the experience is as described, i.e., the thought story seems real even if nothing real underlies it.

The description of this invisible person an "aliveness" is interesting.
Actual experience of sensation is actual experience of life happening.
Where does aliveness stop and sensation begin?
Where does the "invisible person" end and sensation begin?

As image/colour is the actual experience of image/colour, is it possible that the actual experience of image/colour is of something invisible? The absence of colour?

Not really. But can't thoughts also be concepts and memories of sounds and sensations, in addition to visual images? In this case, there's a concept of an invisible person.

Mental images, mental sounds, tastes, smells and sensations arise. As do thoughts the are made up of words and sentences.
What is a "concept" in actual experience?
Is it a thought story?
Or what is it?

Where do "I" and "self" exist in actual experience?

Thought

What is "body" in actual experience?

Thought

What is "cat" in actual experience?

Thought[/quote]

Does the thought label "cat" say anything about the associated actual experience of colour, sensation, sound and smell?

No

Does the thought label "body" say anything about the associated actual experience of colour, sensation, sound, smell and taste?

No

Hmm...so in actual experience all of these things are just thoughts or thought stories.

Yes, all that there has ever been is sensation, smell, sound, taste and colour overlaid with thought.
Is this clear?

Where does sensation stop and the "invisible person begin"?
Where does smell stop and the smeller begin?
Where does the sound stop and the listener begin?
Where does the colour stop and the perceiver begin?
Where does the thought stop and the thinker begin?

Sorry for the delay today John!

This post is a lot shorter that the last one, which may be a blessing!!

Very best wishes

Nina