Clarity

[Ghata]

Dear Dale,

it is a pleasure to read your reply :-)

Wow there is just feeling - There is no I feeling them...
There is no I creating the thought - They come out of no where - And I am not controlling them...!

Lovely, well seen :-)

But for example when the thought arose that produced panic- I could feel it physically as the body constricting. Short of breath.

Yes, the body reacts to thoughts in the way it reacts to perceptions that are received through the 5 senses.

What is true? Thought or experience?

I dont know if either of them are true now...

It looks like we need to define what is meant by "true". True or you could also say real is everything that doesn't disappear when you stop thinking of it or believing in it.

Whas is true or real, the content of thoughts or what is perceived through the 5 senses? Remember the experiment with imagining the spoon.

I am looking forward to hearing about your Experiment from my last post

Much love,
Ghata

[Dale Marie]

It looks like we need to define what is meant by "true". True or you could also say real is everything that doesn't disappear when you stop thinking of it or believing in it.

What is true or real, the content of thoughts or what is perceived through the 5 senses? Remember the experiment with imagining the spoon.

Here I would say - real is what is perceived through the senses since they don't disappear when you stop thinking about them.

Okay this conversation was about

What is true? Thought or experience?

Hm - I am sorry, I still do not get this - Thoughts are not real - and experience is not there after you experience, it is a memory/thought, so I would say not real. Right?
But for example: I cut my hand a long time ago - the scare is still there, so that is real. Are you saying then, that experience is real?
But the memory is not real because it would be like the spoon, there are no 5 sense in involved with memory.

Or say you "experience" seeing (on of the 5 senses) a building burning. That is real - the burn building would still be there even if I stopped thinking about it. So I experienced seeing a burning building, so that is real?

Okay onto the experiment :-)
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Today become aware of the thought stories that are running and of the reality that is experienced through the 5 senses.
Change Focus deliberately. For example when you got caught up in thoughts including emotions, step out of it for a moment and take in what is actually Happening. What are you seeing, hearing, touching, smelling, tasting?
And do it the other way round. Watching the sun set pay attention what is going on in thoughts? What main topic is present in thoughts at the same moment?

Share one or two occasions when you did this experiment.

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Today become aware of the thought stories that are running

Thoughts arised about the person I am care-giving for. There was conversations in my head about what to say to her. There were judgment thoughts towards her, then thinking about ways to leave the situation, and thought of quilt , feeling responsible for her and angry about that - And what is the lesson I am suppose to learn - why do I keep taking on other peoples problems and think I have to say them, on and on. The change reaction!

So the main persistent thought that comes up is - "I" have to do something about this. And then I am going over and over scenarios in my thoughts about how to fix this.

Then I step out of it - and it is gone. The worry thoughts stop for a bit - I am onto other things.

But it is always in the back of my mind of that this is something I need to take care of, so I better think about it so I can figure out what to do.

But to answer the question

"What are you seeing, hearing, touching, smelling, tasting?"

None of those thought are happening with the 5 senses.

I am realizing the only real solution is to find her another care giver - and that is what we are doing! - So all this other stuff/thoughts are Useless!

And do it the other way round. Watching the sun set pay attention what is going on in thoughts? What main topic is present in thoughts at the same moment?

The sun is setting, the leaves are moving on the trees from the wind. The chickens are pecking for worms.
Not sure what you mean by "the main topic" in the question?
Hm, I could say the main topic is "doing and being" are just happening.

[Dale Marie]

Hi, I wanted to say thank you for copying and posting our FB chat! I noticed you changed the names even!
It is late (night time) for me now - But I wanted to check in. :-) I think I may have got it! I was reading Ilonia book, and
something went "click!" I will write about it soon, after some sleep.

[Ghata]

Dear Dale,

You are welcome. Yes, I copied the fb-chat into word and changed all names for privacy.

I am so much looking forward to reading about the "click". No need to answer my last questions :-)

Much love,
Ghata

[Dale Marie]

I can stop laughing!!!! haha lol - okay I will get back to you soon!
I am glad you are up early!

[Ghata]

Dear Dale,

picture me sitting up in bed with a tiny netbook on my knees, reading your note with a big smile on my face.

Much love,
Ghata

[Dale Marie]

Dear Ghata,

LOL! Great - I am now in the process of writing it, will post in a few.

[Dale Marie]

Ready for it? LOL Okay :-)

As I was reading Charles from the "Gateless GateCrashers PDF Book -This is what click or clinched it for me, I underlined it:

Now compare the following:
Take Spiderman. If you think about him, you have thoughts, feelings. They’re real, right? Real thoughts, feeling, real image of a red and blue lycra suit. But Spiderman is not real. Spiderman does not exist. He is not part of reality. The thoughts and images are—but he isn’t.
Self is exactly the same as this. Exactly the same. What arise are thoughts, feelings and sensations in the body. They are real thoughts and feelings. But an actual self? That’s not real. Self does not exist. You are not part of reality. The thoughts and images about you are—but a being that is living life? Thinking thoughts? No. There’s nothing there.
Do not believe this. Look."

So I was like WTF - I am not part of reality??? Huh? Is this true?? Then I saw - I looked and I am not! LOL

This is a copy of what I wrote as I was seeing this at that time:

omg, omg, omg!!! There is No Me HERE! lololol If I look around I can not find a me anywhere in this reality!! Or existence! I am not here! Thoughts are here - looking and seeing things are here, feeling is here - everything is here except a me??!!! Oh my!!!
I use to believe that thoughts are not real - so many have said thoughts are illusions - But NOW I see as you said they are real - but the content is not! Got it!! Thoughts are always there, so they are real. But I is a thought - the thought is real - but the content is not.!! So there is the thought of I - But there is no Me.

Any how! that is it :-) I dont know how long his laughing and smiling about this will last - but it is sure fun right now! It is the simplicity of it that is soooo funny!!
Much Love!

[Dale Marie]

Quite amazing - how we go around and around with our thoughts, and not wanting to look that there is no Me - There is not a Me that is part of reality. It is all ideas of a me, but no substance. Amazing

[Ghata]

Dear Dale,

YES!!! :-)))

Much love,
Ghata

[Dale Marie]

There is much thanks and gratitude for the help Ghata!
If you are up for it - how was your experience with getting this?
Right now there is the experience of amazement. The I idea is in shock - but this makes me laugh.
Time for sleep,
Good morning
Adele, opps Dale :-)

[Ghata]

Dear Dale,

it is such fun and pleasure being your guide. Your joy is infectious :-).

Let's stay with your experience for now.

Taste life. How does it taste now? What is experienced? How does it feel?
Compared to the beginning of our dialogue in the Gate Group, what has changed?


Much love,
Ghata

[Dale Marie]

Hello Ghate,

What is different from when we first started is

, right now the experience is questions arising are still there, but there no one to answer them! lol If that makes sense. Or better said. I dont care if they get answered. I realize that there is no Me in reality and these questions really have no answers just concepts.

And it is funny because I have always been chasing questions my whole life thinking that an answer would make something clear, - Like I finally made it. And in a way it did! Where is there a Me? What I was doing with that was conceptualizing it, the mind wanted to tell what that means - Not direct seeing.
There is a feeling of peace for lack of a better word. Calmness within thoughts. I am not so attached - Like you said clouds passing by.

I want to say the difference is that the search is over, but I have said that before in my life - and then questions that "I" felt were not satisfied started coming and on the hunt again.

Taste Life - how does it feel

- It feels different - sweeter. I can see things and thoughts as just being, sort of like I am seeing things new, with a new perception. One that is more gentle.

And I am happy we are still talking! A fear came of - I still hope we can talk and I am not left on my own! Gezz lol That is probably because I enjoy experiencing and sharing this with you :-)

[Ghata]

Dear Dale,

what a lovely description of life without YOU. :-) You will not be left to your own, I will stay here as long as you like me to be here. And we have groups for people who have seen through the Illusion of self where you will meet me again and many other inspiring people.

I realize that there is no Me in reality and these questions really have no answers just concepts.

Exactly :-)

There is a feeling of peace for lack of a better word. Calmness within thoughts. I am not so attached - Like you said clouds passing by.

Sweet.

It feels different - sweeter. I can see things and thoughts as just being, sort of like I am seeing things new, with a new perception. One that is more gentle.

Beautiful :-)

Have a closer look at thoughts. You already saw the they come out of nowhere and disappear again.

Can you predict what thought comes up next and if you don't like it stop it from arising?
Can thoughts think or do anything?
Is the I-thought any different to other thoughts?
Can a thinker be found or are thoughts arising by themselves?

Much love,
Ghata

[Dale Marie]

Dear Ghata,
Thought I would update you. After the laughing, I woke up the next day sort of angry. I have been sick and I think it was because of the emotional upset with things not working out how "I"wanted them too. And thus still angry. This was Saturday.
I did some writing trying to understand and conceptualize why there is no Me in reality. lol My conclusion was - there is Something that is aware, and appears to makes choices. And the something -people call it consciousness which can not be seen, felt tasted, smelled. Anyway there is awareness of life. Is there a Me who is aware? I can not find a me -but there is awareness. Are there individual "awareness" Maybe. But I dont think so - Awareness is just that awareness. It is not separate. There seems to be people who conceptualize differently. But I see that does not matter.
Then Sunday I woke up with a sense of peace. Like it does not matter what I think or anyone else thinks. It does not matter what "Dale" does or doesn't do. There use to be constant self judgment. I find that now slipping away. And even the feeling of I like her (Dale) that I have never experienced before. lol - And the judgment of others is easing - almost gone is the experience now. I think consciousness - if that is what one want to call it - is just doing what it does. And there is awareness of it.
The most interesting thing is the appearance of making choices. On a mass scale, for example the "War consciousness" kill to survive. There appears to be a choice or learning that killing is not survival. lol Anyway that is what "Dale" does. Meaning watching mass global events and peoples opinions. For example I still like Bernie Sanders! lol But what is different is the intensity of "He has to win" or the attachment to it has lessened. I know I would be disappoint if he doesn't. But I see that as disappointment appears.
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Oh I just saw you asked some questions! I am sorry I was feeling sick and forgot about them!

Have a closer look at thoughts. You already saw the they come out of nowhere and disappear again.

Can you predict what thought comes up next and if you don't like it stop it from arising?

No - thoughts seems just to come up - I can not predict them. After the fact - a thought can come up that says dont dwell on that thought.

Can thoughts think or do anything?

lol - can thoughts think? Interesting question! Outch - it hurts to look! I dont think they can think - I want to ponder that one for a bit. Hmm - you are asking a question - are thoughts -thinking about what to answer? hmm

Can thoughts do anything? No

Is the I-thought any different to other thoughts?

I will "think/ponder" and get back to you on that

Can a thinker be found or are thoughts arising by themselves?

I can not find a thinker - they arising by themselves