What is

[Andrei]

Actually not personal initially till a thought comes for eg. what did i do, when did this start, will i need a surgerey, let me get a pain killer or change my position etc. The sensation itself doesnt have a me-ness but typically it very quickly gives rise to the I thought.

All right.

I cant say that for sure. Body is the vocab i use for the physical manifestation of the being, the one that senses. The senses are real, they stay. The thoughts are temporarily created , i wonder where they are occuring, they go away as soon as i am in the present/now. they may just be some energy?

Well, everything is energy. If you put your hand under a microscope you will see a whole bunch of particles dancing around.
What I do though, in order to stop putting so much importance on thoughts, is to simply envision them as just another bodily function, a brain function to be more exact. A healthy brain creates (or receives) thoughts, an ill brain does not. So nothing magical or mystical about thoughts, they just do their bit.
What`s amazing is how we fall into the trap of thinking that the thoughts are anything more than the blabbering of the brain.

What about the other objects (nature, animals, people)? Is there a "you" that feels separated from them or is that just another thought/concept?

And what about the platform on which things happen, call it mind-screen, call it awareness, consciousness, etc. Is that a deeper level of the "self" or is it just another bodily function?

[Anigma]

True, actually everything is transient but sensory inputs stay longer than thoughts so give an illusion of real.

Hmm, any other object i see, while i see with no thoughts arising, i dont feel the seperateness. As soon as it triggers a thought, I am seperate from what i am seeing.
Awareness seems to be deeper, what happens on it is and my experiences keep changing, but the ease i am in when i am experincing everything while being present (withought the I thought) tends to make me believe that this is deeper.

[Andrei]

everything is transient but sensory inputs stay longer than thoughts so give an illusion of real.

Indeed, and like I told you before, this is what kept me trapped.

Awareness seems to be deeper, what happens on it is and my experiences keep changing, but the ease i am in when i am experincing everything while being present (withought the I thought) tends to make me believe that this is deeper.

That because this awareness thingie seems to be present all or most of the time.
I just imagine it like a continuous flux of information sent from the senses through the nervous system to the brain. The senses do transmit information continuous don`t they? If you start to turn them off, one after another, then no more information, no more consciousness, no more anything.
But again, that is just bonus work. The idea is to not identify with it, just like with everything else.

Well, our journey here is almost at the end. From your answers, at least, I gather you`re already past the gate. Woohoo :)

I will ask you a few more questions, just for clarifying where you`re at.
Also you need to tell me if there`s anything unclear, anything you feel we didn`t cover, if there`s anything that`s still bugging you.

Are there any doubts at all about seeing through the illusion of the separate self? When the “I” has been seen through, fully and completely, what's left?

[Anigma]

Wow, that seems really simple!

So let me ask you some doubts that i have..
1. How do you differentiate between consciousness and awareness?
2. I understand that the I thought is what makes me identify with the body, senses, emaotions etc. i do get glimpses and am completely in present a lot of time. How do i increase that? Even after knowing, how do i still identify and get sucked in the stories sometimes?
3. Continuing with the meditation practices will make the experience longer lasting? deeper?
4. can we go deeper into when we make choices before action and when it is random- you said you may go into it later


Grateful for the jouney so far! thanks!

[Andrei]

Wow, that seems really simple!

What did you expect? Angels playing trumpets opening the gates of heaven for you? :D Seeing the truth of no-self is just that, a simple realization, a change of perception. It`s also different for people according to their level of openness and self-inquiry. For some it`s a ground-breaking discovery, they feel all sorts of mushy things. For others, like it was in my case, it`s actually rather boring and somewhat disappointing :))

How do you differentiate between consciousness and awareness?

I dont know. They are just words, concepts. I think they mean pretty much the same thing? Don`t hang on my words please. I used them just to make sure there are no concepts that may hide something you identify with.
If you think there are differences or if you want to talk about them let me know.

I understand that the I thought is what makes me identify with the body, senses, emaotions etc. i do get glimpses and am completely in present a lot of time. How do i increase that? Even after knowing, how do i still identify and get sucked in the stories sometimes?

Very good question. The I-thought doesn`t go away just because you stop believing in it. The thoughts are just a continuous stream of words appearing on your mind screen. They just do what they were designed for.
However, now that you can see there is no self, the I-thought cannot make you identify with it. Or it might, for a short while, until you remember that there is no you.
Gating might be a one time process but it takes time to get used to it. Identification will still happen, stories will still appear, but now you know how to deal with it. And in time it will get easier. You will wear the garments of the self a lot looser. But they will not go completely away, at least from my experience.
One way you can help is simply pay attention to them and see them for what they really are - stories.

Also, after we`re done here, we have some facebook groups for people who gated and there you can continue the inquiry, ask questions if there are any unclarities, see what others experienced etc. Your journey with LU doesn`t have to end here :)

3. Continuing with the meditation practices will make the experience longer lasting? deeper?

Meditation is good in general. In this particular case what you need is to simply pay attention and use direct experience whenever you discover something that seems "personal". This "liberation" is not an actual experience, is a lack of experience.

4. can we go deeper into when we make choices before action and when it is random- you said you may go into it later[...]
Well it seems like some actions need a choice to be made and some actions go on without thinking.

All right.
So by choice you mean a thought appears and says today I`ll have a cup of tea instead of coffee and the body does that.
But even if let`s say the body and the thoughts are in alignment, how do you know the body did that "something" because of the thought?
I mean you already have plenty of example when the body does what it please, even cells taken individually have an intelligence of their own.
I`m not saying that thoughts have nothing to do with the choice. Maybe it does. I could not find it and I can only speak from my experience and to sum up my experience in this field - the thinking process looks like a narrator who comes and describes what the body is already doing.

And to check if there are any doubts left, here are the 6 final questions. They encompass pretty much everything we talked about so if anything it`s unclear it`s bound to appear now.
Take as much time as you need. Afterwards I will also ask the other guides to have a look and see if they see something that I might have missed.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you seeit now.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
6) Anything to add?

[Anigma]

Thank you.
Yes, it did seem like just a change in perception of what I called I :-) and rightly said, now that i am aware i will wear the garments a bit more loose.

I guess awareness is what is and consciousness is what we are conscious of so far..words, no need to beat around them.

Agreed, the thought may just make a story to justify an action. The impulse for the action might have come from deep within few nano secs before, definitely a possibility.

1. No, the I was always created in thought. doesnt have an existence without a thought.
2. Separate self starts when we are very young. When thoughts get created based on our conditioning, environment, subconsicious and we start to identify with the thoughts as we are never taught anything different. Now, as i watch closely, i am, and as soon as a thought comes up that i engage with, my self/ego takes over.
3. It seems simple, in fact quite straightforward, just a change in perception. I feel i am wearing clothes loser, feel more at ease.
4. The perception that sensations are also not "personal". they get personal when i identify with them was the last bit
5. I am still exprimenting more with this. It appears that there may not be free will. The action that the body performs may have arose from either subconscious/silence and later i put in a story to say why i am doing this. I am responsible to bring in more silence as i go along that increases my awareness so the action triggers are positive.
for eg. when my daughter is annoying me when i am completely engrossed in my work, if i felt more compassionate, i may distract her after spending a few minutes with her as opposed to sometime ago, when i would completely lose it and get angry and took a lot longer to settle down to focus on my work. The silence, un-identification tends to make the action/reactions more aligned to the way.

Thats all i have. Grateful!

[Andrei]

Agreed, the thought may just make a story to justify an action. The impulse for the action might have come from deep within few nano secs before, definitely a possibility.

I just remembered something I read back in the days about this experiment which took place in Denmark I think. I don`t remember all the details so in case it doesn`t make much sense you can blame it on my memory. So they connected this guy`s brain to some computer and showed him a sequence of yes or no questions. The scientists knew what the answer will be according to what regions of the brain would start to light up on the encephalogram.
What they found was that by looking on the brain activity they can see what the subject would answer 6 seconds PRIOR to him even seeing the question...
When I read that I was like wow, 6 seconds prior not just to thinking the answer but even seeing the question. The implications go a long way...

It seems simple, in fact quite straightforward, just a change in perception.

That`s damn right. That`s precisely what I felt too.
Well I also felt slightly disappointed, especially at all the bullshit spirituality I spent my time with, and all the gururs and so-called enlightened masters talking about bliss and never-ending happiness and reaching Shambhala :)))

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for?
I am still exprimenting more with this. It appears that there may not be free will. The action that the body performs may have arose from either subconscious/silence and later i put in a story to say why i am doing this. I am responsible to bring in more silence as i go along that increases my awareness so the action triggers are positive.

Ok let`s talk about this a little bit. You are already there. You can see. So do not hold back from going all the way. Break on through to the other side (credits to the Lizard King here).
I know "free will" and "responsibility" are very deeply ingrained concepts into our psyche, but that doesn`t mean they have to hold any truth. The emperor might not be wearing any clothes after all.

Question is, are you responsible to do some thing or another or does the situation unfolds in whichever way it wants regardless of what the "responsibility-thought" thinks about it?
(Not sure if I worded this question ok. Let me know if I didn`t. Unfortunately "liberation" didn`t make me more eloquent :))

Or could it be that your life experience has simply become more mature and more calm and silent and more understanding with the others, without a "responsibility-thought" whatsoever?
(Yeah I worded it a tad bit better here)

Are you becoming more silent or is there a process of "silencing" happening independent of a self?
(Even better wording. I`m getting good at this eloquence stuff haha)

As to "free will", that experiment I wrote about above should help a bit.

[Anigma]

So if i may ask, you believe this is it? Wouldn't continuing the spiritual practice (meditation, a guru to guide) deepen the silence and may unfold more of the cosmos into our consciousness? eg, bliss , unity experience, more change in perception?

ha ha i the lizard king certainly was a gate crasher..

You are eloquent enough, I get what you say :-)

It is a responsibility thought for sure. In the society growing up, we learn to take responsibility for our actions. Just learning that we dont really have control over thought to act.
However , it appears like if i would like to keep my practice so the silence increases , i am "here" more and the triggers for action dont have a destructive nature. i am creating a story of why i should :-)

Yes I am seeing that true free will doesnt exist , kind of co-relate it will choiceless awareness

[Andrei]

So if i may ask, you believe this is it? Wouldn't continuing the spiritual practice (meditation, a guru to guide) deepen the silence and may unfold more of the cosmos into our consciousness? eg, bliss , unity experience, more change in perception?

My answer to all that is I don`t know. I gated a year and a half ago and nothing else changed but this change in perception. I matured of course, but this would have happened even without going through this "liberation" process. A person who pays attention to his environment, who learns from what life shows him, will become more accustomed with the flow of life, will "grow" as the years pass.
But no "bliss" happened, no "unity", no nothing. However I can`t say it`s going to be the same in your case. Each journey is different. Life has a plan for each one of us.
What i did notice is that the "call" I had for a more spiritual life, for discovering the truth of existence, and all that which brought me to LU, is no more. I`m not looking for anything any more because to me even the sole act of searching for something different is a step away from what is, is a step back. Not sure how to word this properly.
It`s like I reached the end of the journey and now I`m enjoying the time left until something/somebody switches off the light.
Valar Morghulis! Haha

So what you could expect in the near future is to simply get used to this new paradigm of no-self. There is a danger of falling back into the old stories, but now you know how not to, if you so choose.
What you could do is to pick up guiding yourself and this way to be more in the process, because every client is different and they might force you to figure out new exercises and see things differently, and this way to clear things more, even for yourself.

However , it appears like if i would like to keep my practice so the silence increases , i am "here" more and the triggers for action dont have a destructive nature.

You are just "growing" into this silence and it`s a good thing. Who knows where it might take you :)

This is pretty much it. I have no more questions. I will ask the other guides to have a look and maybe they see something I didn`t and I will get back to you as soon as possible.

[Andrei]

I`m afraid you are not off the hook just yet muhahaha. I have a question from a fellow guide:

After seeing there is no self, what do you think you are?

[Anigma]

Ha ha OK. All is good and welcome.

The self seems to exist when a thought arises.
There really is no self.
I do have a body and a mind which is a manifested functional unit so i can operate in this world.
I am just part of this consciousness/awareness. just being here and now and living in the moment till thoughts come and take over can create an illusory self or story. With the change in perception, i am able to see that happen.

[Andrei]

All righty then :)
We have no more questions for you Anigma. Welcome to the dark side!
Soon you will receive a PM from one of our admins who will offer you more info and change your status on this forum, offer you access to more subforums, etc.

I really enjoyed our chat. Good luck and have lots of fun!

Andrei

[Anigma]

thank you Andrei! it was a "liberating" journey :-)
Thank you for guiding me through it, i really did enjoy it as well.

I'm sure you will continue to have the fun being:-)
With gratitude,
Anigma