Introduction

[Canfora]

There are expectations going on and there is a longing for something different going on also?
Can you see this while is happening?
Can you see the weight that thinking has in this?

From what you're saying it seems you feel you're trapped in this thought loop?
Are you? Can you find the entity that is stuck in these thoughts?

Sit still in a quiet place and gently breathe deeply a few times.
Notice what is happening here/now.
What would you say is missing?
What should and could be different?

If you can't experience a you, then what is experiencing all this?

[WesleySPK]

Oh I am so sorry for this late reply! I didn't see there was a page 2 and so I figured you stopped responding or were busy, but I just saw this response. Please give me a moment to read this and respond, I hope you're still able to continue.

[WesleySPK]

Can you see this while is happening?
Can you see the weight that thinking has in this?

I can see it while it's happening, however it seems like theres this sense of self or attachment in it. And yes I do, similarly, I sometimes feel it's too much to ignore the thoughts, like they just have so much pull. I am not experiencing this very strongly now though, I feel a relaxation in the expectations.

From what you're saying it seems you feel you're trapped in this thought loop?
Are you? Can you find the entity that is stuck in these thoughts?

Yes. I think that I have been better lately at identifying the thought pattern and not taking it to be real. I cannot find the entity that is stuck in the thoughts...It's only when there are thoughts that the entity is stuck in them.

Sit still in a quiet place and gently breathe deeply a few times.
Notice what is happening here/now.
What would you say is missing?
What should and could be different?

Nothing is missing. There's just what's happening in the moment and I feel content and peaceful in response to it. And nothing should or could be different in this moment.

If you can't experience a you, then what is experiencing all this?

Yes that's a good question...I don't know what is experiencing all of this, I just now that the experience is happening all the same.

[Canfora]

Hi Wesley!

Sometimes the second page is missed, it happens. I'm glad you have noticed that I had posted a reply.

It's only when there are thoughts that the entity is stuck in them.

Can you explain how this ^ happens?

I don't know what is experiencing all of this, I just now that the experience is happening all the same.

Just to make sure you can't find a you that is experiencing... If you sit quietly somewhere, listening to sounds, is it possible to find a entity that listens?

You can try the same with the other senses too.

What listens? What sees? What tastes? What feels? What smells?
Are any of these experiences being experienced by a you separated from the experience?
Can a experiencer be experienced?

Looking forward to know what you will find.

[WesleySPK]

Thanks for continuing to reply!

Can you explain how this ^ happens?

I don't think I can at this moment. I will just say that with the particular kind of self-referential thinking, that I experience the thoughts along with a sense of self stuck in the thoughts.

Just to make sure you can't find a you that is experiencing... If you sit quietly somewhere, listening to sounds, is it possible to find a entity that listens?

You can try the same with the other senses too.

What listens? What sees? What tastes? What feels? What smells?
Are any of these experiences being experienced by a you separated from the experience?
Can a experiencer be experienced?

No, if I'm really listening, there's just listening; really looking, there is just looking.

No, none of these experiences are being experienced by a me separate from the experience...Actually as I was sitting quietly, a bunch of text messages came up on my phone and I became annoyed. The thought, "Oh god, stop" came up, and as I tried this again, there was this sense of self where before there wasn't really.

[Canfora]

I will just say that with the particular kind of self-referential thinking, that I experience the thoughts along with a sense of self stuck in the thoughts.

Are you saying that sensations and thoughts are being experienced?
Or is the sense of self more than a sensation - a sense + a thought "this is me, I feel my self"?
How can a sensation get stuck to a thought? By stuck do you mean that you think one is causing the other, or something like that?
Anyway, is a sense of self a self?

[WesleySPK]

Are you saying that sensations and thoughts are being experienced?
Or is the sense of self more than a sensation - a sense + a thought "this is me, I feel my self"?
How can a sensation get stuck to a thought? By stuck do you mean that you think one is causing the other, or something like that?
Anyway, is a sense of self a self?

I'm a little lost in all of the wording, I apologize I can't focus very well at this moment. My thoughts have been non-stop almost all day and increasingly depressing and fearful.

[Canfora]

I'm a little lost in all of the wording, I apologize I can't focus very well at this moment.

That's okay. No need to apologize.

My thoughts have been non-stop almost all day and increasingly depressing and fearful.

Why? Is something going on that is causing the over thinking and these reactions?
Or is this inquiry that is making you feel like this?

Having these kind of reactions happens sometimes, intensity, depressive thinking, unpleasant sensations, fear can be felt. And that's okay, it's a sign that you're looking at the right place. Would you say that there is a usual tendency to feel like this, that maybe when confronted with the unknown, with the uncomfortable, thinking takes first stage, like if it wants to protect you?

If that's the case, thinking is working as a protection mechanism, trying to keep what is perceived as a danger far from you. It's trying to keep you safe, like a friend or a loved one would do. If you can, take a few deep breaths and say thank you to thinking for being there for you. Welcome the fear, the sensations, while they're happening (why not? they're happening anyway....) and have a look at what is being protected. What are the thinking and the fear trying to defend? What can you see that is in danger?

Let me know what you find.

[WesleySPK]

Why? Is something going on that is causing the over thinking and these reactions?
Or is this inquiry that is making you feel like this?

I believe it has something to do with a fear of not being enlightened, a fear of staying in a dream/delusion. I see/read/watch something which seems to confirm this, or confirm my depression/fear, and from there my thoughts begin fantasizing about a day when I will wake up from this, when I will be enlightened and feel peaceful and at home and when I will no longer be in such a terrible place. It always seems impossible to stop and it greatly inhibits my ability to do everyday tasks, in fact it seems to make just about everything difficult.

This particular inquiry didn't cause this as it's been going on for over a year now, but I have a hunch that it is related to spiritual inquiry in general, considering I always end up fantasizing of some spiritual awakening. I recall after the strongest spiritual experience I had, blissful as it was, a couple days afterwards I felt desperate to get back to that place and I remember thinking that it was as if I was split in two. Even though the peace remained and nearly all fear subsided for months, I believe I am still doing the same thing I was then - trying to get back "there".

Would you say that there is a usual tendency to feel like this, that maybe when confronted with the unknown, with the uncomfortable, thinking takes first stage, like if it wants to protect you?

Yes...Sometimes I feel as if I charge head-on into the unknown, and then other times (like now) I feel like I am avoiding the unknown because I feel like it only creates more fear and failure.

If that's the case, thinking is working as a protection mechanism, trying to keep what is perceived as a danger far from you. It's trying to keep you safe, like a friend or a loved one would do. If you can, take a few deep breaths and say thank you to thinking for being there for you. Welcome the fear, the sensations, while they're happening (why not? they're happening anyway....) and have a look at what is being protected. What are the thinking and the fear trying to defend? What can you see that is in danger?

I don't know...I do have a tendency to feel like this and have thinking take first stage, but it is usually in pursuit of awakening. Though recently I feel like my thinking has tried to protect me from the unknown and I have had a decreased interest in the spiritual seeking - which can also make me scared.

[Canfora]

Hi. Busy day, I'll reply tomorrow.

[WesleySPK]

I understand and thank you again for this

[Canfora]

Hi Wesley, thank you for your patience.

I believe it has something to do with a fear of not being enlightened, a fear of staying in a dream/delusion.

Ah! I think I understand what you're saying. But I am not sure if I do.
Are you saying that this experience that is happening right now is a dream/delusion?
If that's what you're saying, how do you know that is true?
Do you think there must be, somewhere other than here, a reality that is more real than this now experience? And that this now experience is unreal?
And do you think that in that other reality - that it's not a dream - all umpleasantness will cease to exist?
Do you think it is possible to escape what is going on now?

Hug!

[WesleySPK]

Not a problem, thanks for your patience with my response delays.

Are you saying that this experience that is happening right now is a dream/delusion?

Well, only when I go through these unpleasant episodes do I start thinking that. But more specifically, it's not that what's happening around me is a dream/delusion, it's that "I" am caught in some dream/delusion.

f that's what you're saying, how do you know that is true?

I don't really know. But I think on some level I carry a belief that if I weren't in a dream/delusion I wouldn't feel so unpleasant, depressed, anxious, etc. And vice versa, when I feel crappy, I take it as a sign that I am doing something wrong, or that I must be lost in my thoughts of worry because often times I check in with myself and I am thinking many worrisome thoughts.

Do you think there must be, somewhere other than here, a reality that is more real than this now experience? And that this now experience is unreal?

Yes. Until I snap out of it, or until the storm passes on it's own and I am often left with a recognition that my present experience couldn't be any different. Just today, I watched a video which led me to confirm my suspicion that I am out of touch with my heart. I thought of how in the past, I had experiences of profound love for strangers, for everyone and anyone, and how good that felt, so I began questioning why I am not experiencing that now. I was content and happy, then all of the sudden that seemingly stable happiness was replaced by this anxiety, doubt, and I began coming up with all these questions as to whether I was doing something wrong or not, whether I should take up a different practice, abandon my schooling and go try and get back in touch with that "love" experience of the past. It can escalate very quickly. However, I was able to come back to my present experience and trust (not so much see, but trust) that my present experience was as it should be. But this notion that I have to do something, try harder, to basically improve myself spiritually in one fashion or the other, be it opening my heart or meditating vigorously, seems to immediately cause me to doubt my experience and begin a chain of worrisome thoughts that can grow heavier and heavier.

And do you think that in that other reality - that it's not a dream - all umpleasantness will cease to exist?

Well, yes. Or I tell myself something like, "well even if unpleasantness exists, I will be in such deep acceptance that it won't disturb me as it does now." I'll accept everything, like I did that one time...

Do you think it is possible to escape what is going on now?

No. Wow, I began laughing at pondering this question. Then the thought came, "well if I don't try to escape what is going on now, I will just be stuck as I am now. And as I am now needs improvement; I'm so imperfect. I avoid eye contact sometimes, I act/behave in ways I judge as inconsiderate, I don't patiently wait for the other person at the stop sign to go ahead - like I used to. I don't look at others and see myself. And so on. Yet I am also able to laugh at considering whether I can escape what is going on now, these happened seemingly simultaneously.

Hug!

hug! Again, thank you for giving your time. I am really valuing this a lot.

[Canfora]

Well, only when I go through these unpleasant episodes do I start thinking that. But more specifically, it's not that what's happening around me is a dream/delusion, it's that "I" am caught in some dream/delusion.

Are you aware that thinking this way may be your way of coping with what's going on? An ingrained habit probably? Is this belief that you are caught in some dream/delusion helpful?

I think on some level I carry a belief that if I weren't in a dream/delusion I wouldn't feel so unpleasant, depressed, anxious, etc. And vice versa, when I feel crappy, I take it as a sign that I am doing something wrong, or that I must be lost in my thoughts of worry because often times I check in with myself and I am thinking many worrisome thoughts.

Yes. You're giving meaning to your experience. Connecting what is felt with what is thought and with your story about you. Painful stuff.

Just today, I watched a video which led me to confirm my suspicion that I am out of touch with my heart. I thought of how in the past, I had experiences of profound love for strangers, for everyone and anyone, and how good that felt, so I began questioning why I am not experiencing that now. I was content and happy, then all of the sudden that seemingly stable happiness was replaced by this anxiety, doubt, and I began coming up with all these questions as to whether I was doing something wrong or not, whether I should take up a different practice, abandon my schooling and go try and get back in touch with that "love" experience of the past. It can escalate very quickly.

I've been thinking a lot about what you're saying about being in or out of touch with the heart and the assumption that there must be something wrong with who isn't.

I've looked at my experience and tried to find:
- a heart that can be open or closed
- any evidence that it is better to have a open hearth than a closed one (assuming there is one heart to be found in experience...)
- a reason for loving other people that is not just something that I've learned as a member of society, ie, a bunch of ideas, assumptions about behavior.

I know this is not in the scope of the inquiry we are doing but it may be helpful to you, so I am sharing. Your thoughts on what I'm saying would be appreciated.

Anyway, I suggest you stop seeing this kind of videos for the time being. They are making you feel bad about yourself which should be enough motivation to stop (I hope) - unless you have masochist tendencies :)

However, I was able to come back to my present experience

What did you do to go away from and come back to your present experience?

this notion that I have to do something, try harder, to basically improve myself spiritually in one fashion or the other, be it opening my heart or meditating vigorously, seems to immediately cause me to doubt my experience and begin a chain of worrisome thoughts that can grow heavier and heavier.

Does all this stuff strengthen the belief that an I must exist?

Or I tell myself something like, "well even if unpleasantness exists, I will be in such deep acceptance that it won't disturb me as it does now." I'll accept everything, like I did that one time...

Experiences and states come and go. Do you see how wanting to relive this experience makes you think your actual experience is not good enough? Is this expectation of reliving the past useful?

Then the thought came, "well if I don't try to escape what is going on now, I will just be stuck as I am now. And as I am now needs improvement; I'm so imperfect. I avoid eye contact sometimes, I act/behave in ways I judge as inconsiderate, I don't patiently wait for the other person at the stop sign to go ahead - like I used to. I don't look at others and see myself. And so on. Yet I am also able to laugh at considering whether I can escape what is going on now, these happened seemingly simultaneously.

Ahah. Yes. I could tell you you are good enough as you are and there is no need to be better than you are but my words wouldn't be helpful unless you realize this for yourself. So let's keep going, shall we?

All these believes about you have a core, a transverse belief that keeps them in place and seems to give them coherence: the belief that you are separate from life and can control what's happening, the belief that a subject exists, experiencing these experiences.

They only make sense and are true if this you is real, yes? So, what can you find in your experience that is this you you're talking about? Where is this I and how do you know it is there?

Looking forward to your reply!

[WesleySPK]

Are you aware that thinking this way may be your way of coping with what's going on? An ingrained habit probably? Is this belief that you are caught in some dream/delusion helpful?

I'm not sure whether I have ever thought of it as my way of coping with what's going on...I have recognized it as probably an ingrained habit. I don't know if it's helpful to me. I think perhaps it was helpful or relevant at one point in the past, but I definitely see it as habitual.

I've been thinking a lot about what you're saying about being in or out of touch with the heart and the assumption that there must be something wrong with who isn't.

I've looked at my experience and tried to find:
- a heart that can be open or closed
- any evidence that it is better to have a open hearth than a closed one (assuming there is one heart to be found in experience...)
- a reason for loving other people that is not just something that I've learned as a member of society, ie, a bunch of ideas, assumptions about behavior.

I know this is not in the scope of the inquiry we are doing but it may be helpful to you, so I am sharing. Your thoughts on what I'm saying would be appreciated.

Well, I would have to say I really don't know. I noticed that part of me got defensive/judgmental, perhaps even fearful, about it. And because there are so many teachings on "the heart" it confuses me and aggravates me because of not knowing who/what to believe in. But while sitting this evening I thought about this, and I felt peaceful about not knowing.

Anyway, I suggest you stop seeing this kind of videos for the time being. They are making you feel bad about yourself which should be enough motivation to stop (I hope) - unless you have masochist tendencies :)

Yes, I agree. It's rare that I do now a days, and I remembered why.

What did you do to go away from and come back to your present experience?

Well...Nothing. I suppose I didn't go anywhere. I just was worried and preoccupied with thoughts that didn't make me feel good, then my thoughts changed and I felt better about my present experience.

Does all this stuff strengthen the belief that an I must exist?

Yes, I would say a great deal of it does.

Experiences and states come and go. Do you see how wanting to relive this experience makes you think your actual experience is not good enough? Is this expectation of reliving the past useful?

Yes, I think I do. I think I have felt increasingly dissatisfied with that tendency...Tired of thinking my present experience is not good enough, or that I am not good enough/not complete. Well i think it was useful as a way to cope with difficult times - taking the past experience and hoping that it will happen in the future. But when I don't try and relive the past, I feel incredibly lighter and in that sense I would say it isn't useful.

Ahah. Yes. I could tell you you are good enough as you are and there is no need to be better than you are but my words wouldn't be helpful unless you realize this for yourself. So let's keep going, shall we?

All these believes about you have a core, a transverse belief that keeps them in place and seems to give them coherence: the belief that you are separate from life and can control what's happening, the belief that a subject exists, experiencing these experiences.

They only make sense and are true if this you is real, yes? So, what can you find in your experience that is this you you're talking about? Where is this I and how do you know it is there?

I can't find any I. There's my sense perceptions going on - seeing, hearing, etc- some thinking. And I don't know if it's there. This evoked this stubbornness though.