i must see clearly

[samlynne]

ok I just sent you a really long reply and had got logged out so it went no where so here goes again

the closing the eyes and looking - when I opened them immediately there was no observer just seeing

when I looked out the window and then back at the observer they were the same seen and see-er

when I looked at the body felt sense this was not so clear but it still seemed that everything became the same - bodysensations and observer- I'm not so clear about this one

now I looked at frustration - firstly it was being judged not ok - and yes it is perfectly ok to be there - when looked at frustration is bodily sensations with labelling including stories and the "I" label when it is directly felt it the labelling disappears and it is just sensation rawly felt - no observer no labels

oh I enjoyed exploring that one

I am looking now at emotions - if expressed they have a sound component that is heard and they have a bodily sensation

well lets hope this is posted this time - but it made me look again which is helpful

sam

[blackh]

Hi Sam,

Yes, unfortunately the site has this nasty habit of logging you out and losing your post for you.

You're doing really great work there. Frustration is a body sensation + thought story.

Thoughts are clearly important in this whole picture. So, it would be good to take a look and really find out what they are. Take a look in your direct experience and see if you can find answers to these questions:

1. Look really closely in direct experience and see if you can find a "place" in your experience where thoughts come from. I'm not really asking about how they're connected to previous thoughts, rather, where do they arise from?
2. Can you see a thinker of thoughts? That is, is there a "you" that observes them, and is there a "you" that can control them?
3. Can you choose to think only pleasant thoughts?
4. Please do not think about a pink rabbit. Were you able to do it?
5. Can a thought be stopped in the middle?
6. Do you know what your next thought is going to be? Try it.

At LU we like Philip K. Dick's definition of what's real: "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."

With that in mind, see if you can answer these two questions:

1. Are thoughts real? That is, do they exist?
2. Is what thoughts SAY real? To put this another way: There's a cup on the table. It's 100% real. It won't go away if you stop believing in it. There is also a thought in your mind about the cup. The thought is real (assuming you answered yes to Q1). But, the question is, is what the thought says about the cup the actual reality of the cup?

Steve

[samlynne]

Hi steve

this is inquiry felt simple but I did notice a little anxiety around it
Thoughts simply arise out of nothing and and go back to nothing
there is absolutely no thinker of thoughts - and no one controls them - therefore no one chooses any thought / what to think
thoughts cannot be stopped in the middle and of course no one knows what the next thought will be


thoughts are always going to come and go - therefore they do exist
what thoughts say about things are NOT real

sam

[blackh]

Sam,

Blimey! You're good at this. The anxiety is almost certainly a good sign because it means you are being affected deeply. It's not just a "harmless" thought experiment.

What thoughts say can only ever be a story about things that are real (things that can be directly experienced) and never the thing itself. Which means...

If you can only find thoughts ABOUT a self, then - pending evidence of an actual self - it doesn't make much sense to believe in one. If you can remember what it was like to find out Santa doesn't exist, then it's a bit like that. Except, some of the gifts that self brings you are not so nice. It doesn't need to change the way you live - at least not straight away. Not believing in Santa doesn't stop my teenage daughters putting their Christmas stockings out.

So we need to keep looking for this self.

Have a look at your thoughts and notice the different kinds of thoughts. Some are verbal, some are images or even "video", some are conceptual - like a collection of information and "facts" about some thing. Notice that these can be quite subtle. Thoughts of all shapes and sizes can "stick" to everything. The human mind contains a powerful experience simulator that allows us to visualise part and future scenarios, which animals can't really do. And most of us are not that clear on what's real and what's a simulation.

Take a look at these questions:

1. What can a thought do?
2. Can a thought think?

So if self is only a thought and thoughts can't think, why do we think that "I" am thinking? (Is the answer to this contained in the question?)

Another thing that's worth doing is just to sit quietly with your eyes closed and look at the totality of your experience (other than sight). What's there? Can you make a list? Is there a self there somewhere?

Is there somewhere in particular you want to look, or shall we look at whether there's a doer of actions that makes decisions and controls the body?


Steve

[samlynne]

Hi steve

sitting quietly there is just experience - sensations in the body always changing - sounds arising and going - thoughts seeming to be giving a commentary or just arising - nothing original - lots of tension as thoughts try to find a self - no one found - there is still a sense of self but it is obvious there cant be one

looking at the doer would be useful - o

I have noticed too that sometimes as things are looked at anc get glimpsed the body almost falls backwards - feels like it is finding its original place - then it winds back up again

interesting

sam

[blackh]

Sam,

yes, this can be disorienting. It doesn't make sense to the mind (thoughts) that there can be an apparent body with decisions, thoughts and sensations, but no central controlling, self-conscious entity that's "you" while the rest of the world is "not you". But are there any signs of this entity apart from thoughts about it? There must be something.

And how can it (whatever it is) "own" the body and thoughts anyway? You own your hairbrush, and this is a perfectly useful concept because it means no-one else will use it. But it's just a concept that everyone agrees on. You can't own a hairbrush in any real sense. Is ownership of the body different in some way?

There are lots of things you can look at for decision and control. This is a really good and simple one:

Hold your hand out in front of you, palm down. At some point, it will turn over to reveal the palm. Did you know when it was going to happen? Did "you" make it happen? Was there a feeling of "I'm doing this?" When did that occur? You might need to repeat this a lot of times and watch really carefully.

Here's another one that I found valuable:

Take two similar objects such as a salt and pepper shaker on a table in front of you. Reach for one. Look really closely for the decision point: The exact point in time when the decision was made.

Do the same thing throughout the day whenever you have to choose between several similar things. Always look for the exact decision point, because we need to find out what your involvement was in that decision.


Steve

[samlynne]

steve Hi

well I have done some observing today it seems that there is no decision maker - with the hand ex the hand turned and then the thought came after that I turned it - when I was looking at choice between things - the choice seemed just an automatic impulse that happened whether there were thoughts about it there or not
my actions in the day seemed to just run on automatic - say walking talking etc

so it is pretty obvious that no one can be there but I still don't feel I have totally got it

[blackh]

Sam,

Great work! These control/decision question can take a bit of repetition, and this is worth doing as long as there is any doubt. The question of whether we have free will can be approached from two angles:

First angle - find how the decision is made. Look at decisions and try to trace the source of them. Remember to look for the decision point. Driving is an activity people often talk about if you want an example of complex action without thought, but my favourite one is eating. Eating can be done with no thought at all, where there is usually some thought in driving, and in some ways the movements and decisions are more complex than driving.

Then there are the thoughts that are involved in decisions. The naive view is that a decision starts with thoughts, and then actions follow. But it's obvious that most decisions are made without any thoughts at all, and some of those are followed by thoughts claiming that "I decided". Thoughts about a decision can occur before or after a decision. If there is any doubt about how all this works, then keep looking at decisions in daily life.

Second angle - there has to be a self. The body makes most of its decisions completely by itself - by which I mean that there is no visible cause. I don't want to lead you, but I think you've got this one pretty solidly. But if thoughts can influence these decisions, then there has to be a self that controls thoughts. So what is it and where is it?

If there a self, then let's find it. If there are only thoughts about a self, then

1. What can thoughts do?
2. Can a thought think?

so it is pretty obvious that no one can be there but I still don't feel I have totally got it

It takes a little while. Tell me more about where you're at with this. Do you have any specific doubts?

Here's an exercise that might help:

Go somewhere where there's a lot of movement. Either outside in nature, or somewhere where there are a lot of people. Look at the totality of the experience. See how everything moves, wiggles, trees, grass, animals, birds, humans, thoughts, feelings, the body that is here now. Notice that thoughts are arising dependent of what is being noticed, what is being experienced.

Notice life, aliveness and how everything is happening effortlessly. Turn the focus outside. Notice how everything simply is. Perceiving is happening. It's here, now, alive.

See how seeing just happens. There is no one behind the eyes, no watcher, no observer, only watching, observing happening in the present moment. No agent that switches seeing on and off at will. Mind is doing its usual business of labelling experience and it is also just happening by itself without an effort.

When you look at what is looking, what is there?


Steve

[blackh]

Sam,

I should clarify: "Second angle - there has to be a self." What I mean is... in order for there to be free will, there has to be a self that is doing the willing.


Steve

[samlynne]

ok thanks

I will do some more exploring - I feel pretty sure that everything just arises and dissapears on its own - sounds sensations feelings thoughts including the "I" label thought therefore no one controlling decision making as there is no seperate person

when you said find the actual decision point you cant find it it appears that the thought is making the decision sometimes but thought has no power for anything so the thought must come after the decision is made presumably just a function of the brain

as I am typing this reply I am noticing the hands typing away - broken down it feels an automatic action with random thoughts that I am not really aware of but different things going on - just sensation of keys and fingers which actually is just sensation when the thought label is dropped - sighing and frustration if I use labels as I finish the task but actually just sounding sensation and labelling - a tight feeling in the chest which in actual experience is just sensation with labelling of chest and body

I will explore more tomorrow outside - thank you

as for doubts specifically - so far this has seemed too easy and there must be something else to get - is it a case of having to constantly keep noticing which can feel very effortful?

if I sit quietly and really notice there seems to be a knowing of all experience that includes the sense of me -but this knowing cant be known - is that right>

thanks for you hel steve and I will look some more tomorrow

sam



sam

[samlynne]

steve

thanks for the clarification about free will - something knows here that this doesn't actually exist even if it feels like it
willfulness is then a programmed response that is claimed by just a thought "I"

[samlynne]

I have just done another experiment with a pen and paper on the floor 0 I realised I didn't know which one I was going top ick up - I couldn't control the choice and the decision so definitely no free will at all

also just sitting in the room at home and really sensed how everything is just happening now experiencing now - in no time - that that is all there is just this now

[blackh]

Hi Sam,

I will do some more exploring - I feel pretty sure that everything just arises and dissapears on its own - sounds sensations feelings thoughts including the "I" label thought therefore no one controlling decision making as there is no seperate person

Yes, keep looking. It's the looking that does it. Thinking will not get you there, because what thoughts say is not real. Most people have to keep looking for a self for quite a while even after initially seeing that there isn't one. There's a lifetime of conditioning telling you otherwise.

when you said find the actual decision point you cant find it it appears that the thought is making the decision sometimes but thought has no power for anything so the thought must come after the decision is made presumably just a function of the brain

You look for the decision point and... Looks like you've found what's there, but keep checking as long as there's any doubt.

as I am typing this reply I am noticing the hands typing away - broken down it feels an automatic action with random thoughts that I am not really aware of but different things going on - just sensation of keys and fingers which actually is just sensation when the thought label is dropped - sighing and frustration if I use labels as I finish the task but actually just sounding sensation and labelling - a tight feeling in the chest which in actual experience is just sensation with labelling of chest and body

There are senses/sensations and there are thoughts and...................... that's it. Who knew? :)

as for doubts specifically - so far this has seemed too easy and there must be something else to get - is it a case of having to constantly keep noticing which can feel very effortful?

"There must be more to this!" is a common reaction. Nope. This is so simple, but the mind loves complexity and so somehow misses it.

But yes, there is a reasonable amount of work needed in looking/noticing to "break through" as you are finding.

But... here's something to consider: Look into your direct experience... What is effort?

also just sitting in the room at home and really sensed how everything is just happening now experiencing now - in no time - that that is all there is just this now

Quite so. How are the past and future experienced?

if I sit quietly and really notice there seems to be a knowing of all experience that includes the sense of me -but this knowing cant be known - is that right>

Dead on. (Or, in American English: you nailed it.)


Steve

[blackh]

Sam,

I should clarify: When I said "keep looking" I didn't mean to imply that there was something you haven't got yet. I am just saying, keep reinforcing it.


Steve

[samlynne]

thanks so much steve

so that's it for now - just to keep on noticing ? ok

sam