Denis, please post here

[Denis]

Hi Moonlight,

I can't see that mind and body belong to anybody, just exist. I am not sure what you mean: "try to keep expectations out of it..." I'll try to keep it fresh tho.

What I see now is friends watching tv, a cat watching me, and my fingers typing. At this moment, self is only this body with a full stomach and mind looking for something and wanting to focus.

I had a very busy day getting into a new winter residence in Arizona, not much focus on looking. I did do it some when it occurred to me and more during meditation. Knowing it's cliche, it is liberating, a sense of "aah relief." I'll be thinking about it and your tips more tomorrow.

thanks for keeping up with this,
denis

[Moonlight]

Oh I was referring to this line which you wrote.

Concept of trying to see is so abstract I when I don't expect to find anything but mind and body.

You might not think you're expecting something, but that self is presumed, isn't it? that's why asking to keep expectations (or not) to the side. To look with fresh eyes, now. For example, like if you're reading something, the reader is presumed. But look inside to see if there really is one, or is reading just happening.

Thanks for writing even though you were busy. When you have time to look at thoughts and where they're coming from, and if they are controlled by you, please write about that.

If the body and mind just exist, then what makes them into a 'self'? Yours or mine or anyones? Fingers exist, but what makes them into 'your' fingers? How does ownership come into it if there is no owner?

[Denis]

Hi moonlight. I moved into wintr residence today. Only havecell phone for now. New one so just getting familiar. Have thought about keeping expectations out. Am trying. Body and mind belong to universe. I kno its past knowledg but kno they r composed of supernova residue. Thats what they mean to me. Not sure how self id fits in tho. Thanx for keeping with me. Denis

[Moonlight]

You'll be able to read and reply from the cell phone?

So, body and mind exist and belong to life? What they are composed of is a little irrelevant for this inquiry. They are there. What's relevant is how DOES the self fit in? that's what we have to find out. My question was, how does the body/mind become YOUR body/mind?

Along with watching thoughts, watch how your body works. As you go about daily activities, how much is happening automatically, and what are YOU (if there is one) controlling? Breathing? Digesting? Cell renewal? Healing? Ageing? Walking? Eating? Reading? Look at each activity, and see where the self is. Please write in detail your observations about both the body and the thoughts.

Thanks.

[Denis]

Yes. I can type slowly. I may need to find a public wifi until i get cable. For now ill use the phone.
Good quetion. How r mind and body mine? My answwr: because they r clearly no one elses.
Wow most body processes go unnoticed. U just made me realize that. Body and mind typing but that is my def of self. Body is comfortable but mind is jumping to thoughts of anxiety, guilt and lack of purpose. I am thinking i sound like a psychologists patient. Wondering about your role. It is admirably unselfish. Thats not a pun. Cheerful coicidence tho.. i could say my mind did not choose that. No self involved. Ill watch for such incedents tomorrow. Thx. Denis

[Moonlight]

How r mind and body mine? My answwr: because they r clearly no one elses.

And why do they need to belong to anyone or anything? Does life need an owner? Look at an animal, does it have a 'self'? Watch a cat or any other animal, see how they just 'are'.

I haven't heard much from you about where the thoughts are coming from and whether they are controlled.

Body is comfortable but mind is jumping to thoughts of anxiety, guilt and lack of purpose.

Is the mind jumping to the thoughts as if they're solid things sitting there, and the mind is a separate object jumping to them? Or are thoughts just passing through like clouds in a sky. Some staying longer, some being more 'charged, and some just fluffy ones passing quickly by. But no matter how they are, nothing affects the background sky.
Thoughts are real, sure, but their content isn't. Only what is happening right now is real, experiencing is real. Not the experiencer. There is NO experiencer.

[Moonlight]

Oh and thank you for your appreciation of our work. But really, it is a pleasure and an honor!

Thanks!

[Denis]

Hi Moonlight,

Am back on my computer. What a relief. Can't imagine life without it.

Am not sure cats "just are." Sure like them tho. They seem to have more control of thoughts than humans. No, nobody has to own thoughts but mine are mine, not someone else's. Those specific thoughts could not exist without some entity (me). Feel free to reject that view.

Your tips are appreciated. thanks,
Denis


I like the "no experiencer" attitude but I am not convinced. What is happening right now is the only reality, I agree. A sense of responsibility keeps me planning and looking at the past to make the plan.

Not sure what to do next but will watch for the "experiencer" more tonight and tomorrow. Of course I don't expect to find one so that makes it seem futile to my ultra-pragmatic mind.

Where do thoughts come from?" seems like a philosophical question, especially for thoughts generated by other species. Back to my own personal experience: they just arise, not much control. Only the meditation kind of control such as going back to an object or mantra. Thoughts definitely come from the preceding thought or action and a result of karma. So, in that sense, we do have some control. This is coming from experience and thoughts, not just books, etc. Good point you make about them passing like clouds.

I have noticed that "just happening" today more than ever. Not that I gave it much thought before but the underlying assumption was that I had control and could make things happen with planning, effort, and choices. Noticed more connection today with others and surroundings, "no man is an island" thoughts.

[Moonlight]

Dennis, I'll write tomorrow, okay? In the meantime, observe nature, and see how it does without an owner or controller.

[Denis]

Hi Moonlight,

Definitely OK to write tomorrow. I appreciate your asking.

We are on the same frequency; I took a hike in the Catalina Mountains today and focused on observing nature and its lack of controller just as you mentioned above.

It was a pleasant open feeling to know a sahuaro has no self but is going through the processes needed to survive, grow and age. I searched for the "me" in my body. Felt sensations wherever I looked: in the chest, behind the eyes, between the ears, and even in the groin. It seemed to move with my attention. When I looked outward, it seemed everywhere; a sense of no separate self but encompassing the sky and desert. But my attention returned to an inner me as I was looking for my boot print on the return trip. Felt selfish for being so self centered that my attention returned to watching the trail for "my" print. I am not sure that has any relevance to this searching but it was a contrast to the earlier more selfless thoughts. I'll take another trek tomorrow and observe more.

Oh, last night I awoke, opened my eyes briefly, then re-closed them. To my surprise, I had a very powerful image of me looking back at myself. The other me had a very blank look on the face and the eyes were open and motionless. I was startled, opened my eyes and thought about it in these terms. Remained awake for a few minutes, then closed the eyes and returned to sleep. Ordinarily I would not even remembered it, much less mention it, but this was so very vivid that I can still see that stoic expression.

I am looking forward to hearing from you tomorrow. I'll follow your suggestion and gladly take another hike in nature.

thanks, denis

[Moonlight]

Hi Mike, sorry couldn't write much yesterday.

No, nobody has to own thoughts but mine are mine, not someone else's. Those specific thoughts could not exist without some entity (me). Feel free to reject that view.

So, what makes the thoughts 'yours'? We're not trying to believe or reject any view, but trying to get to the truth through looking at direct experience. Accepting or rejecting views is irrelevant, right?

Look at thoughts, as they arise. What causes them to? Try to find anything other than:
1. Outside stimuli
2. A 'train' of thoughts, ie thoughts leading to other thoughts.
3. Past conditioning

What else? Can you find a 'you' in that to have the thought or to control it or to originate it?

When I looked outward, it seemed everywhere; a sense of no separate self but encompassing the sky and desert. But my attention returned to an inner me as I was looking for my boot print on the return trip. Felt selfish for being so self centered that my attention returned to watching the trail for "my" print. I am not sure that has any relevance to this searching but it was a contrast to the earlier more selfless thoughts. I'll take another trek tomorrow and observe more.

No sense of a separate self. And thoughts arise, thoughts of watching the trail for 'your' print, thoughts of being selfish, thoughts of being self centered. Is that identification anything other than thoughts? Read what again, and see what's real and what's the head doing its usual stuff.

To my surprise, I had a very powerful image of me looking back at myself. The other me had a very blank look on the face and the eyes were open and motionless. I was startled, opened my eyes and thought about it in these terms. Remained awake for a few minutes, then closed the eyes and returned to sleep. Ordinarily I would not even remembered it, much less mention it, but this was so very vivid that I can still see that stoic expression.

Maybe was the illusion of you saying bye :)

Please explain a sense of responsibility, what does it mean?

[Denis]

Hi Moonlight,

I'm Denis (label). No worry though; am definitely not offended. That may be because I remember a similar exchange between Elena and Shane ( a good friend of mine in Phoenix). She called him Shawn; surprisingly, he responded frankly that his ego popped up.

Nope, I cannot ID anything outside of the three ID's you stated (outside stimuli, train of thoughts, and past conditioning) about why the thoughts are mine. I totally agree they flow. Also agree that accepting or rejecting views is irrelevant. Whoops, I just accepted :-)

No, I cannot find a tangible me that originates the thoughts. I only find a body and mind that are required to have them.

Yes, the thoughts judging myself were just thoughts and my identifying with those thoughts. Nothing was real but the boot prints which I never found.

Geez, I'd like to think your suggestion I saw my self saying goodbye is accurate! Albeit a bit scary. Whatever, it was just a thought that stayed around awhile.

My "sense of responsibility" was a thought about the motivations for my choices and activities. How I look at the past to avoid mistakes, not always successfully, and to use my time and resources to help others, not always successfully, as opposed to recreation and decoration. I brought it up to explain my "experiencer" attachment to the past.

Now I am having trouble separating the memories and learning from the "experiencer." I know the thoughts just passed through but they left an imprint somewhere. If not on the experiencer then where?

Geez! I am going for a hike.

thanks for all the insightful tips,
Dennis

[Denis]

Have returned from a desert mountain trek. Spent time observing nature and noticing there is no self ID in any plants even though they are growing and moving with the wind. Looked for the "me" in my body and the desert. No identity called denis there.

However, I know you advised that the mind and body don't have to belong to me or anyone else but I am still unclear why it cannot be defined as self. Can you help me out with that? It seems I am getting closer to dropping the baby but this "body/mind" thing is holding me back.

thanks, denis

[Moonlight]

hmm. First of all, my apologies. I was writing to you, Dennis, but got the labels mixed up. Sorry.

You're very close, Dennis. Few things to note here.

There are those labels that are pointing to something real. Like a table, like a body. Then there are labels that point to something which is imaginary, which doesn't exist. Like Santa or the tooth fairy. Once you see through the belief, that's it! YOu can't start believing it again.

The self is a label pointing to nothing real, like Santa. Just a character in a story, but no 'I' inside. So we use the label Dennis for the body/mind/character, but we know that there is no 'little Dennis in the head' controlling that character. There is no ownership of the character, hence no 'self'. No advice from me, Dennis, except to pointing where to look for yourself :)

The past is the story of the character, but does it actually exist, except as a thought in the head, happening right now? The memories arise as thoughts in the present. Is there anything ever happening except life happening now?

What feelings come up now?

[Denis]

Hi Moonlight,

This is hard to believe but I have failed two times to reply. Both were lengthy replies that never got past my computer screen b/c it lost the internet connection. This time I'll save it intermittently.

So, it has been a wonderful day. This morning started with the usual meditation. But the meditation was unusually blissful. Ordinarily, I would not mention it but this seems relevant. I decided to intersperse "looking for my ID" with the mantra (TM), which makes it not TM but that's another label. Anyway, it was blissful. No ID to be found. Nothing, nada, just bliss, open awareness. I can give you more details, if you are interested . The point is that the weight of recent stresses and depression was lifted. I felt freed. Still do, 4-hours later.

I wrote you about it immediately after breakfast, hit the "submit" icon and presto. No connection!

So, I went for a desert mountain hike. Another free, open, blissful experience. The desert never looked and felt better. My only fear, concern is a better word, was my mental construct of denis would reappear. Afterwards, I (my body and mind) went to a restaurant where I got an internet connection and wrote you a second time. Hit submit and presto! No internet connection. This is the third time I've tried to send this. Funny, it doesn't bother me that much. Hope that is not just mood-making. Concerned that ego will re-emerge when things go bad. So far I've only been exposed to nature at its finest and a restaurant in an affluent community. I'll test it later in traffic and a ghetto where the suffering is obvious.

The feelings arising now:

Liberated. Happy. Ready to live. Just experience and hopefully I will help other beings. The latter has been my goal for decades and the former was prevalent when I was young. Funny, now they both seem relevant. I want to experience the universe, much like a child wants but know the most joy comes from helping.

Back to grown-up talk. I am grateful. So very grateful for the way you and LU are helping others. This is an amazing awaking for us seekers and a most admirable effort from you. I am composed now but earlier, the thoughts and gratitude brought me to tears. You don't have to do this. Amazing that it works so well. Without your effort I'd be looking for escapes. Maybe on the road, driving away from wherever I am. Now, I feel content. Ready to watch the show and help where I can.

Thank you so very much (hugs),
denis