The Gate

:-) You're so welcome, Aylaji. It's a privilege.

So first here are some preliminary questions. As you consider each one, answer only in firsthand now experience, no need to come up with any clever, philosophical 'correct answers or sayings', yes groping words are just fine, and don't forget to record any sensations which come up as you read any of the questions, not just the verbal answers which feel right, ok?

1. Have you been able to find, a ‘self’ that is the ‘experiencer’?

2. Or a self that is 'the doer', or can control what happens?

3. Or a self that ‘makes’ decisions?

4. Or a self who ‘does the thinking’?

5. Can "the body" be found to be any more than label for sensations (namely tactile & kinesthetic)?

6. Can the five body senses be found to be experienced or caused by this ‘self’, rather than simply being unexplainable happenings?

7. Can a self be found ‘in here’ which is separate from the world and others ‘out there’?

8. Is there doubt or unclarity that in all these cases the ‘self’ is nothing other than a mental fabrication?

And finally:

9. Are there any doubts about seeing through the illusion of separate self?

Cheers

Mark

oops, meant to call you Ayla there!

M

1.

Have you been able to find, a ‘self’ that is the ‘experiencer’?

No, no self. Experiencer and experience are the same breath, same fabric, same wind and same perfume.

2.

Or a self that is 'the doer', or can control what happens?

All is being a sort of a doing. Can't express in human language somehow.. The doing, doer and result of them is still "part" of the doing/doer.. :D

3.

Or a self that ‘makes’ decisions?

No. There's just a focus that seems to be happening from the ... "insert term" - nothingness has been so used and abused... doesn't feel right to use it any longer

4.

Or a self who ‘does the thinking’?

No thinking or wanting but there is a sense of a harmony unfolding continuously somehow

5.

Can "the body" be found to be any more than label for sensations (namely tactile & kinesthetic)?

Body seems a kind of a membrane filtering and expressing. Or a sort of lens, or a device that is capable of experiencing certain sensations yes..

6.

Can the five body senses be found to be experienced or caused by this ‘self’, rather than simply being unexplainable happenings?

They are just happenings somehow also within the "greater harmony" of happenings that the self also IS (wow lol...sorry if this makes no sense)

7.

Can a self be found ‘in here’ which is separate from the world and others ‘out there’?

No. No such thing.

8.

Is there doubt or unclarity that in all these cases the ‘self’ is nothing other than a mental fabrication?

No. No doubt whatsoever. I kinda don't even remember what doubt is really lol.

9.

Are there any doubts about seeing through the illusion of separate self?

None. Nothing to look from and into.. Everything is it, in, part and whole... (language again eludes...)

This feels expanding and graceful. Thank you for this :)

Hi Ayla,

Great. Something to explore further there, before we pass to the summary questions. Again concerning 'the body':-

Mark: 5. Can "the body" be found to be any more than label for sensations (namely tactile & kinesthetic)?
Ayla: Body seems a kind of a membrane filtering and expressing. Or a sort of lens, or a device that is capable of experiencing certain sensations yes..

Ok, a nice description. Two questions spring up. a) Can any actual body be found there in the direct experience? Please close your eyes and lay one finger on the opposite arm. Take time with this, paying attention to the actual sensed experience. Labelling (ie thinking) says "this is a finger and that is an arm. the one is touching the other", right? But behind those labels, rationalised descriptions and suggested coordinates, suggesting material body parts in apparent physical locations, behind all that, what is the actual experience?

Once this has carefully been looked into, move on to: b) does this apparent 'membrane' or 'lens' belong to any 'me'? So is it part of any supposed individual, or is it just an experience that is kinda 'here'?

Just have an honest look and let me know what comes up. Again (not had much back from you yet on this element), report also on any sensations which come up when you read the questions: that's all part of it.

Cheers

Mark

a)Something moves something else from nowhere...into nowhere. Felt coldness of finger. Again, some kind of a focus, best I could describe it - still just a description - it's like a sort of a focus of a camera that is trying to zoom in... Also, seems completely empty, like random and airy, spacious.Just stuff moving :D
b)Experience is kinda taking place somehow. Also, this "membrane" for lack of a proper word, is also in itself a "part" of the experience itself, but it belongs to not anyone or anything at all. It is somehow there not even that distinct from being anywhere else. Feels that body is also a part of ocean or a rock or a bird...

This is the problem right here. Cannot really express how it feels. Hopefully you can understand energetically what I'm trying to say cause... all above are words just bumping into each other and they are much more "solid" than the experience here. Reading questions feels like recognition somehow. Like an opening and a deepening.

Felt coldness of finger.

Ok, so when the labelling of 'coldness' and 'finger' are looked behind, there is some aliveness of experience, right?
Can any real, material finger be found? Or just the (kind of) alive experience?

Cheers

Mark

The kind of a "surreal" feel of it. There's a feel + a non finger? :D something like that.. again just to try to convey here. I'd say that the "most real" is the coldness
:)

Thank you Mark :)

OK that's great, Ayla.

Now I am going to give you the summing-up questions.This is going to test out the whole 'groping with words' process! Please take your time with them and just answer them honestly, simply and as fully as you can, from your present experience (i.e. practice rather than theory). It's not a case of 'correct answers' but of authentic honest ones:-

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
 
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. I know it might be tempting to hypothesise about this, but I am asking just for a spontaneous report of what feels real about it. Describe it fully as you see it now. 
 
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
 
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? 
 
5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Please try to describe the process as best you can, even if gropingly. Here I would like you to take at least one or two practical examples from your own everyday life (even if there is no real 'you'!), describing the event as fully as possible, as though to a child.
How does it work? What are you responsible for? Don't forget to answer that last part of the question.

6) Anything you would like to add?

I look forward to hearing from you when you are ready.

Cheers

Mark.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

1. 99% of the time, answer is NO. There is still 1% where mind tries to associate it with a "me" sometimes (ei if physical pain or certain triggers are there), but that too is seen.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. I know it might be tempting to hypothesis about this, but I am asking just for a spontaneous report of what feels real about it. Describe it fully as you see it now.

I'm not sure I understand what it is that you are asking, would you please rephrase this?
There's no more illusion here..There's no "me" "me", still there is all me one me... :D There is allness encompassing.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

Again, I'm not sure if I understand your question, But the difference from a few days ago is that the need to express exactly is less "frustrating" and there's a sort of a surrender to give way to the flow of what and how it comes. That was already there but I was kinda sorta playing with the thought of mind intertwining with Grace. That has been mostly dropped now. It was a constriction.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

All previous drama was coming up and out to get "me". Mind had become a monster.. Trying, striving, wanting, probing, poking, beating.... And then something gave up. Something just fell "back". Something just dropped. Relaxed into itself. Evaporating. Exploding. Expanding. Understanding. Seeing. Being. Peace. Silence. Present. TRUTH. Always been there. Always happening as it should. (this happened about 3 weeks ago when watching a Mooji video)

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Please try to describe the process as best you can, even if gropingly. Here I would like you to take at least one or two practical examples from your own everyday life (even if there is no real 'you'!), describing the event as fully as possible, as though to a child.
How does it work? What are you responsible for? Don't forget to answer that last part of the question.

I'll start by answering the last part of the question: There's seems to be a switch of a focus that happened, a deepening of the understanding. Real understanding, without someone (ie me) doing that. It just arised through me. It feels more like something makes "me" happen, along with "other" happenings.

There's two examples:

(how does it work?) I was recently in a plane and while descending, a very black curtain of thick clouds was approaching. It seemed so frightening and so "solid", like a black wall. Plane passed through it. Nothing was real. This is the best I can describe how things are. Solidness around has the look and the "mind knowing" that there's something there, but that is false. Those are just concepts and/or programming/illusions. Still, part of the play..
(What are you responsible for?) I was travelling a few days ago, waiting between flights in a fairly busy airport.
There was quite a bruhaha of "artificial noise" - heavy machinery from a building site, cars, planes, people talking... so something became conscious of everything taking place and soon discovered that there was a little group of birds singing "in the background". With a little bit of shift of attention and focus (coming through "me" but not done "by me"), "I" was able to "dismiss" the loudness of the artificial noise and only hear the little birds singing. There was so much acceptance there, such a perfect adaptation to the circumstances...life just taking place.

6) Anything you would like to add?

Hopefully I understood your questions correctly. Mind has had such a blow here, it is almost gone LOL :D

Ayla

Hi Ayla,

Thanks for those responses. Some stuff to look at in several of those answers. We'll start with the first.

Mark: 1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
Ayla: 1. 99% of the time, answer is NO. There is still 1% where mind tries to associate it with a "me" sometimes (ei if physical pain or certain triggers are there), but that too is seen.

So, in the 1% where 'mind tries to associate it with a "me" sometimes', does the mind commentary/belief about a separate self mean that there is a separate self in those moments? Is there EVER a separate self? Are there ANY separate selves ever? Can there be?

Cheers

Mark

So, in the 1% where 'mind tries to associate it with a "me" sometimes', does the mind commentary/belief about a separate self mean that there is a separate self in those moments? Is there EVER a separate self? Are there ANY separate selves ever? Can there be?

No, it is still seen. No separate self, just mind tries to associate it, but it is seen as mind play. "Separate self" is pure illusion.

Thanks, Ayla

No, it is still seen. No separate self, just mind tries to associate it, but it is seen as mind play. "Separate self" is pure illusion.

And, say 'you're' having a really bad day, lots of contraction etc etc, the worst imaginable scenario: is that then a real separate self? Is it even POSSIBLE EVER for there to be separate selves in reality?

We are not talking here about the ever-changing states, we are talking about WHAT IS, yeah?

Now onto the second question:-

Mark: 2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. I know it might be tempting to hypothesis about this, but I am asking just for a spontaneous report of what feels real about it. Describe it fully as you see it now.
Ayla: I'm not sure I understand what it is that you are asking, would you please rephrase this?

Here we are looking for you to have an attempt at describing the general human condition, how apparent separation seems to emerge, especially in your own background. A bit tricky to answer, especially as we are looking in firsthand actual experience, but just have a go, ok?

Cheers

Mark

And, say 'you're' having a really bad day, lots of contraction etc etc, the worst imaginable scenario: is that then a real separate self? Is it even POSSIBLE EVER for there to be separate selves in reality?

No, impossible. Where "I am now".... that is TRUTH: no separate self whatsoever.

Here we are looking for you to have an attempt at describing the general human condition, how apparent separation seems to emerge, especially in your own background.

There seems to be a concoction somehow of cells and mind constructs that appear as a sort of an experience. Through learning and repetition and education and society (please put the " all over those terms), this "soup" lol is made to believe it is separate and real and is "dreaming" that it is attempting all sorts of stuff... This here for example has dreamed that it has become a psychologist and that "she" had a "son" and a job... all of that - "hers". It has a bit of a feeling that this is a type of a "comedy" that "we" made into drama. It also seems to be a sort of a continuum to what is apparent to us as here/now.

:D ?

That's great, Ayla

Now let's have another look at the 5th Question:-

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Please try to describe the process as best you can, even if gropingly. Here I would like you to take at least one or two practical examples from your own everyday life (even if there is no real 'you'!), describing the event as fully as possible, as though to a child.
How does it work? What are you responsible for? Don't forget to answer that last part of the question.

Imagine for a moment a scene: one of a little mountain stream which is tumbling down a hillside gully, not far from its source. It has been raining and so the level is quite high. Consider in your mind's eye, if you can, how it flows to the right over a little rock (where, had the level been lower, it would probably have gone around the rock), then the flow goes to the left over a tree bow, and then slows a little in a broader place, before splashing over a small cascade into a pool, and so on down the mountain side. Does it choose any of its directions? Is it even really a separate entity different from the water deposited in it, the rocks, the depressions in the ground etc? Is it even the same entity moment by moment, or more the product of weather conditions and water, like an an ever-changing pattern?

A. Now, consider: can you find anywhere where 'Ayla' autonomously intervenes into life, choosing something that is not the product of all the elements, that is not a part of the overall flow?

B. Now please consider a regular decision made, eg what to wear in the morning, or what to eat for lunch, and describe to me what happens. There are environmental factors, there are colour preferences (but where did those come from: any autonomous intervention there perhaps?), practical issues (such as what is available), available time for preparation, purpose (eg need to fill up for the day, or to look hip and cool for that person!). etc etc. Where in there is an autonomous entity intervening in the flow of life? Can you find somewhere?

C. Can anything be found for which 'Ayla' is responsible? If so, responsible to what?

Have fun with that, and again don't worry about the words: just grope around - you're doing fine!

Cheers

Mark

like an an ever-changing pattern?

THIS :)

A. Now, consider: can you find anywhere where 'Ayla' autonomously intervenes into life, choosing something that is not the product of all the elements, that is not a part of the overall flow?

There is no Ayla. Never was. At this, mind was a bit scared in the beginning. "Scaredness" is also "seen" as stuff flowing lol

B. Now please consider a regular decision made, eg what to wear in the morning, or what to eat for lunch, and describe to me what happens. There are environmental factors, there are color preferences (but where did those come from: any autonomous intervention there perhaps?), practical issues (such as what is available), available time for preparation, purpose (eg need to fill up for the day, or to look hip and cool for that person!). etc etc. Where in there is an autonomous entity intervening in the flow of life? Can you find somewhere?

This too was a bit of a process to go through, when "I finally understood" that basically, there is no decision to be made by anyone at all. The "issue" is that in practical terms, it is translating into an almost "impossibility" to bring "myself" to project what I would like to eat in 2 hours lol. Something chooses. The issue I suppose in the beginning was to let go of mind telling me there is a choice to be made by me LOL. So now, I go to the store, I look at what is there, I pick something that kinda calls out... ( all these "I"s walking loose here are killing me lol :P ). It feels like what we associate usually with the term "freedom" - but that also has to be of/from something/one... LOL Am I making any sense? :D

C. Can anything be found for which 'Ayla' is responsible? If so, responsible to what?

When I see my name, it feels like something is trying to somehow focus into it so that it might become real and talkable about somehow... Do you understand what I mean?
So no Ayla > no responsibility.

I'm having fun with this. Really. It feels like an eye looking at itself from within/out whatever, nevermind my blabling :D

Hopefully you are getting a few laughs too haha

Thank you Mark (also saying YOUR name seems hilarious :D)