kristawalter

[apolsk]

No worries, I love going through this together with you!

Anxiety is natural here. I am challenging your core belief. If I told you that there is no Spider-man, you probably wouldn't get too stressed about that, but "I" is an idea that you relied upon for so many years. However, it only takes a single moment to let it go, and you won't miss it, I promise.

We don't know what you will experience. You can only know what you are experiencing right now, and even then only if you go beyond a generic interpretation, a label called "anxiety", and start looking more precisely:

- What specific sensations in the body arise when you realize that you have no proof of existence of "I", other than imagined picture of it?
- What specific thought(s), what message does this feeling of anxiety carry? Is it a doubt in your finding? Is it confusion about how to operate without the idea of "I"? Is it a fear that something horrible is about to happen without an "I"?

Please try again finding any "I" that is not made up with thought and then stay with your anxiety. Don't run from it. Give it a hug - it is trying to protect you from an imaginary threat. Find out what kind of threat it is protecting your from, if anything.

[kristawalter]

About 8 years ago I woke up in the middle of the night and I wasn't there--there was no "I". It is just a memory now, so I can't say I understand much. I remember experiencing absolute nonattachment and nonidentification. I walked around the house I was living in and I felt for the first time that nothing belonged to a "me." I was like water. It was simple and I don't recall feeling anything but a factual simplicity. This might have happened many times, I don't know. I was not on a spiritual path then, however, and I did not know what to make of this. Afterward it seemed like an "existential crisis" and when I talked about it with others I got worried looks. Since that time my life situation has been unraveling and identity seems to be shedding layer after layer. Everything seems to be falling away, gently and not so gently. But "I" have reacted to this experience unconsciously (I guess) and all of the change brought tremendous anxiety. I am still reacting, maybe, to the perception of loss. Grace brought me to various teachings. I became a seeker. I fixated on the memory. I suppose on some level I could believe that the loss of the self is traumatic. I feel stuck in that, even though I am sure there is no self. I seem unable to realize what I know.

[apolsk]

Krista,

What happened is water under the bridge. It is not true anymore. Let's focus on the current experience. When you read that there is no "you" and never was, what comes up? Don't interpret or analyze, just write literally what you are experiencing right now. When you say that you feel stuck, what sensations, feelings and thoughts arise?

Remember, the content of thoughts and memories is not a part of reality. It is a dream. We are not here to fix your dreams.

[kristawalter]

I'm really upset. I'm angry. I feel like its all been a terrible joke. Life has been fake. People are faking it. I can't stop being a part of this absurd drama.

[apolsk]

OK, I see that there is a feeling of anger and upset about the life being fake. We can get back to this a bit later, but for now let's stay focused on the topic of "I". Please take a look at your own words and tell what any of that has to do with the absence or existence of "I". Can you see that these thoughts are a distraction to drive our attention away from the main question?

I'm really upset. I'm angry.

These are, again, interpretations that you attach to your actual experiences. Can you please report on what sensations and feelings arise when you say "there is no me" and before you label them as "anger" or "being upset"? Direct experiences of sensations in the body, please.

I can't stop being a part of this absurd drama.

You tried to find that "I" and you couldn't. As you admitted, it could only be found as imaginary entity, a thought. So what exactly cannot stop being a part of it? Can you see a possibility that there is just "this absurd drama" itself without you as a part of it? Or, rather, "you", being only a thought, is just another actor in the drama?

[kristawalter]

I see that these thoughts are a distraction or even rebellion against the question, yes. When I say there is no me, there is a slight sensation in the back of my head. My head feels airy. A slight dizziness.

There is an absurd drama all around. Can I step out of it? Or am I projecting it? Or, who is projecting it? If there is no me then there are no others acting out these roles, so what is happening?

[apolsk]

That dizziness by itself is not a problem, right? We all feel dizzy sometimes. It's the thought attached to this particular dizziness that makes it look like an issue. Dizziness lends a thought an illusion of reality; thought lends the feeling of dizziness a particular meaning.

Can you stay dizzy like this for a little longer and try noticing what is the thought attached to it? It won't be verbal, but its content will essentially be something of this sort: "If there is really no me, then... <put something horrible here>". Can you try staying with the feeling and identifying its message, lingering somewhere in the back of your head?

The drama might be happening, and it might be absurd. The question is where it is happening, in the direct actual experience or in a stream of thoughts. Can you, using only direct experience (no imagination) locate things like "drama" and "absurd" anywhere? For example, I can now see a table, a computer, hear noises and so on. To see it as "drama" I need to shift attention to that hidden space where thoughts manifest. How about you?

[kristawalter]

The dizziness is not a problem. It is a description of a physical sensation. I don't find a message attached to the feeling, except maybe there is a subtle expectation of feeling something real in response to the statement there is no me. Maybe the dizziness is a projection? The content is something like, if there is no me, then what is noticing these thoughts and sensations. I don't find anything, just awareness.

I see the table, the cat, the curtains are just what they are, and also as products of the mind. I see that I am a human being, a creature. I see that there is a mind that projects ideas onto reality, that generates drama and feelings and never stops thinking.

Again, thank you for your patience.

[apolsk]

The content is something like, if there is no me, then what is noticing these thoughts and sensations. I don't find anything, just awareness.

Indeed, what is noticing these thoughts and sensations? Does there have to be anything separate from the thoughts and sensations themselves? For example, a cloud in the sky just happens, without a "clouder" who is "clouding it up". How thoughts are different? Why can't they just happen, without a "thinker" who "thinks them up"?

I see that I am a human being, a creature.

Is that what you really see, or is it that you see something, and then a thought arises that labels that something as "I", "a human being", "a creature"? Can you notice how these labels arise after the experiences that they label?

I see that there is a mind that projects ideas onto reality, that generates drama and feelings and never stops thinking.

Where is that "mind", can you show it to yourself the way how you can show the hand? Or is it just a thought after thought that you keep labeling as "mind"? Is it the same thought?

[kristawalter]

I don't know how thoughts happen. But I seem to be able to notice them. If "I" is just a thought noticing thoughts, what else is happening? I can't show myself the mind. It is just...what is happening, operating, responding, labeling. There is a body here. It does what it does. I don't actually know what is going on.

[apolsk]

I don't know how thoughts happen. But I seem to be able to notice them.

Which "I"? Can you find an "I" that is noticing the thoughts? There is an assumption that it must exist, so that the sentence "I am able to notice them" makes sense, but is it actually true? If it exists, you should be able to find it in direct experience without thinking. Try it.

If "I" is just a thought noticing thoughts, what else is happening?

Can a thought notice anything? Think a thought "The weather is good today" and check if it is capable of noticing the weather, or is it just a statement appearing in mind. Does a statement have capacity to notice anything?

[kristawalter]

I'm sorry, Andrei, but I don't know what to say. The words are not meaningful. We talked about the "I" as imaginary. In the imagination, anything can seem to happen. What notices?

[apolsk]

Just describe your actual findings, Krista. There is no need to make anything up with thoughts. Speak from the immediate experience. This is what waking up from the dream is all about.

Can you find an "I" that is noticing the thoughts? If "I" is just a thought, can a thought notice anything? If the answer to both questions is "no", then can there be any "you" noticing anything? Do you see a "you" anywhere?

I wish I could make it more pleasant, but this is what this gate is like. Only what exists can pass through it.

[kristawalter]

I can't find an I or a me, but there is something here and now responding to your questions with typing and words. Is there responding? Is looking happening? I look for myself but since I don't exist I can't notice that I am not there. What is looking and noticing? I don't know. Maybe there is no looking or responding. This is the dream right here.

[apolsk]

there is something here and now responding to your questions with typing and words

True, the typing happens and the words are being written, but is there "you" typing them? Please watch closely how it happens and see if you can notice how words are being typed, and then immediately a thought "my" arises and claims the ownership of what just happened. Did that thought really do the typing? Or was it simply an attempt to rationalize what just happened?

Let's do a small exercise to see if there is "you" doing anything. Do whatever you normally do for an hour, but start watching thoughts visiting you.
- Can you know for sure what thought will arise in the next minute? Can you even keep the decision to watch the thoughts?
- If not, are you truly in charge of which thoughts to produce next?

I have no idea what the truth is, but we can look together and debunk what is not true. Here is a couple more questions for you:

- What does it mean to "know" something? In direct experience (without imagination), does having a thought or label for "it" (whatever it is) qualify as "knowing" it?
- When the attention is focused on a thought, how is such moment different from having a dream?