Looking for a guide

[Paulette]

Michael, Just a quick check in, won't be able to post tonight, but I don't want you to think I am not committed to this exploration. Weekdays are jammed for me, i teach middle schoolers and am the primary caretaker for my husband who is quadriplegic following an spinal cord injury a few years ago. I did spend some time with the exercise early in the day but the MIddle School chaos kind of took me over. I would like to spend some more time with it. Thanks for your patience. Paulette

[Sleepwalker]

Paulette,Thanks for checking in. You have a full life. I can tell you are committed so please get back when you can,no need to check in going forward.No patience required, it's my pleasure to be here with you. Michael

[Paulette]

Let's start with the question; is there a YOU( that which you take yourself to be, separate from the rest of experience) doing the thinking and acting? It appears as though you've looked and not found one.So perhaps another question might be, is there any THING that is doing? Some static , self contained , independent of the rest of Life, individual entity.Or is it possible that all this is simply Life as verb not as noun.

I don't think it's a THING, I think I am still be clinging to the idea/fantasy that it is ME that passes through the gateless gate coming out the other side as Paulette 2.0 or something.

...all working in perfect synchronicity interacting with every other thing within the universe we call our bodies,let alone interacting with everything in the bodies immediate and distant environment. We first look into the question of a separate personal I, if none can be found, from there it may be reasonable to assume that there is no I elsewhere. When the water bill is paid or not paid is that not the same as "feet wiggling",is not water being shut off the same as "sunlight filtering through curtains"," all just a part of the field of experience" as you beautifully expressed?

I felt something reading this, a questioning of my belief that somehow I must be the agent of the water bill getting paid, when far more complex interactions get along perfectly fine with out my involvement. Yes, I can see that this could be part of the field of experience, or for a moment I felt something... I feel like I am so close to the gate, but I have some residual fear,and I have no idea why. In my imagination the gate is a precipice.

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can remember without being obsessive HAHA, Label each experience simply , sight, sound , smell, taste, feeling or thought. So as you become aware of seeing the dog , simply= sight, smelling the toast burning = smell,feel the wind on your face=feeling. thought about work= thought. Thought can be in the form of words or images, sounds, smells, ect ( imaginary) all= thought. Obviously you'll still respond appropriately as necessary. Please just break it down into these categories and report back how this goes. Enjoy!

What was noticed is that I label just about everything, so it went something like this: sight, thought,sight, thought, sound, thought , feeling, thought, etc. Also, sights and sounds, seem to be automatically selected because they are novel or important to the experience at hand
so when driving, it's sight (car), sight (car), sight (red light), not sight (pretty flowers in that front yard), for the most part.

[Paulette]

One more insight from the exercise, de that life could be trusted to take care of itself, I have held a belief that life should be trusted, but have never any de that it could be trusted. One of strongest beliefs I hold about myself is that I am suspicious by nature, the identity that I created (now if that isn't a tautology, I believe in an I that I created. How is that even possible?) takes pride (thought) in my skeptical nature ( thought). I also believe I am an empiricist, so de is going to be the only way to sneak past all these beliefs and begin to dissolve this 57 years of conditioning.

[Sleepwalker]

don't think it's a THING, I think I am still be clinging to the idea/fantasy that it is ME that passes through the gateless gate coming out the other side as Paulette 2.0 or something.

Well put! I'm sure that describes most of us. The new and improved version of self. There is no self, so how can a self that does not exist pass through anything, hence the Gateless Gate. The self is the illusion(idea/fantasy).
See the irony in a self that does not exist trying to see no self. If you can relax the effort to attain results, it may be helpful. This is more a process of undoing ,without doing, through merely being open to what is without the filters and looking at our direct experience without reverting to concepts.

I felt something reading this, a questioning of my belief that somehow I must be the agent of the water bill getting paid, when far more complex interactions get along perfectly fine with out my involvement. Yes, I can see that this could be part of the field of experience, or for a moment I felt something... I feel like I am so close to the gate, but I have some residual fear,and I have no idea why. In my imagination the gate is a precipice

Good, little glimpses. So what is this MY, that other more complicated interactions get along perfectly without. Does it have a shape, a color, exactly where does it reside, how do you know it exists? Take a very simple exercise and repeat it quite a few times observing closely. Put a hand out in front of you palm up and when ready turn it over palm down, repeat numerous times and report what you observe. If it is YOU deciding when the palm gets turned please relate the exact process by which the decision is made. Another good one it to be still a while, then think of a number from one to ten and then watch like hawk. Is there a decision by a YOU or does a number just appear.

"Yes, I can see that this could be part of the field of experience, or for a moment I felt something"

Does there need to be an I that sees or an I that feels? Sit quietly and notice that for example the computer is seen. Now close your eyes and then open them , as the computer is seen look closely and tell me how is seeing happening? In DE, putting aside concepts we've been taught, is there SOMEONE doing seeing or is there just seeing? There is seeing, no you or i needed for the seen to be seen.

. I feel like I am so close to the gate, but I have some residual fear,and I have no idea why

I’d like to invite you to welcome that fear. It serves as an alarm system. I was just reading an article or a post recently and it was explaining how lobsters outgrow their hard exterior shells. They go off under a rock for shelter and break through and crawl out of their shell. The discomfort they feel being confined in a shell that they’ve outgrown is the condition that brings about the shedding, even though they will be vulnerable during the process. When fear arises welcome it. Ask it what it needs to protect? Then look into what is there in DE. IS it more than thought with accompanying bodily sensation? Isn’t it strange how we resist some experiences we label fear and others we run to with joy. People pay good money to have fear aroused in them. Look at the popularity of Horror movies and roller coasters, extreme sports.

. I feel like I am so close to the gate

What would be different if you were at the Gate? How would you know you were there?

In my imagination the gate is a precipice.

Precipice-a very steep rock face or cliff, typically a tall one. Is the gate at the top and passed through so that one is facing the precipice just beyond or is it a hard climb up the precipice to get to the gate?

at was noticed is that I label just about everything, so it went something like this: sight, thought,sight, thought, sound, thought , feeling, thought, etc. Also, sights and sounds, seem to be automatically selected because they are novel or important to the experience at hand

Good looking!!As soon as something commands attention thoughts arise, thought labels and thoughts about assessing if what is being experienced is welcomed, resisted or ignored as irrelevant because it doesn’t affect ME. Again this is built in, no I is doing it , it just happens just as naturally as water flows. Does water flow? Or is it merely acting the only way it can given a certain set of conditions? Below 32 degrees for a prolonged period, water is labeled ice, above 212 degrees steam, in certain conditions fog arises , moving quickly through channels on top of the ground will be labeled a brook if small a river if much wider and deeper. If it is standing and has depth to it we label it a pond or if larger and deeper a lake, if less defined and shallow a swamp. If it’s extremely large and deep an ocean.But isn't it all water?And along with all that ,there needs to be something to create a boundary. The point is the labels don’t exist as things in themselves. Is there a river or is there water doing what water does under certain circumstances. IS water doing anything or are conditions just such that what we call a river arises. When conditions are right organisms appear within the water. If we try to separate them from the water they dis-appear. There is no problem with labels including , I , me , Paulette, Michael. It is when we take them as being anything other than a way of expressing a certain set of conditions coming together that confusion/illusion arises.

One more insight from the exercise, de that life could be trusted to take care of itself, I have held a belief that life should be trusted, but have never any de that it could be trusted. One of strongest beliefs I hold about myself is that I am suspicious by nature, the identity that I created (now if that isn't a tautology, I believe in an I that I created. How is that even possible?) takes pride (thought) in my skeptical nature ( thought). I also believe I am an empiricist, so de is going to be the only way to sneak past all these beliefs and begin to dissolve this 57 years of conditioning.

Life is as Life is. There is nothing more worthy of trust than what is.Life can be trusted to be what it is. What can be different than what is? You are experiencing in DE ,now what is, how can that not be trusted? May it be that life can be trusted but not thoughts about life? Perhaps the only thing about thoughts to be trusted is that they continually arise.HAHAHA!

I also believe I am an empiricist, so de is going to be the only way to sneak past all these beliefs and begin to dissolve this 57 years of conditioning.

Exactly! Empiricism is a theory that states that knowledge comes only or primarily from sensory experience. The empirical approach is exactly what we encourage here, nothing more.

[Paulette]

There is no self, so how can a self that does not exist pass through anything

This does not happen, of course.

So what is this MY, that other more complicated interactions get along perfectly without.Does it have a shape, a color, exactly where does it reside, how do you know it exists?

Shape, no. Color, no. Residence, body/mind? Mind is a belief so no, not there. Body? It could live there, it seems to be locus of my experiencing, that gives me a feeling of ownership. I think of my neighbor moving around his house and experiencing something different than I, leading me to trust there is a separate I to explain that puzzle. So when I look in, I see no I and yet looking out other eyes look back and I don't seem to be able to understand that without the belief in self/s.

Take a very simple exercise and repeat it quite a few times observing closely. Put a hand out in front of you palm up and when ready turn it over palm down, repeat numerous times and report what you observe. If it is YOU deciding when the palm gets turned please relate the exact process by which the decision is made.

I don't decide when the palm gets turned. Lots of thoughts arise "turn your palm," "turn it now," etc. but the palm moves without any decision on my part, sometimes the event arises along with a commanding thought, other times not, it is arbitrary.

Another good one it to be still a while, then think of a number from one to ten and then watch like hawk. Is there a decision by a YOU or does a number just appear.

Number just appears.

Now close your eyes and then open them , as the computer is seen look closely and tell me how is seeing happening?

My eyes open and seeing just occurs, I don't do anything or need to do anything to have it occur.

In DE, putting aside concepts we've been taught, is there SOMEONE doing seeing or is there just seeing?

There is no one doing the seeing, seeing just happened when the eyes opened.

To be continued...

[Paulette]

When fear arises welcome it. Ask it what it needs to protect? Then look into what is there in DE. IS it more than thought with accompanying bodily sensation? Isn’t it strange how we resist some experiences we label fear and others we run to with joy?

I can't go back to that sensation to experience it right now, but I do currently have a head cold and am feeling discomfort and pain my di is that yes it is a body sensation and there is nothing inherent in the sensation that identifies it as painful or uncomfortable but neither do I have to label it, "this is uncomfortable" it is just known that the sensation is uncomfortable, painful, or whatever. Isn't fear like that? There is an accompanying body sensation that is uncomfortable.

What would be different if you were at the Gate? How would you know you were there?

There would no longer be the idea of an "I," a separate self trying to overlay reality. I'm not sure how I would know I was there, clearly I can't know it at all, I keep trying to imagine what would be different, how would I know and come up blank, it seems like such a foundational shift though, I have built up this identity for all of my remembered life, so I trust that it will be known.

Is the gate at the top and passed through so that one is facing the precipice just beyond or is it a hard climb up the precipice to get to the gate?

Facing the precipice just beyond, now I read that and judge myself (I know who's judging who) for being overly dramatic. But that was the feeling, that it's a void I was stepping into, I don't know if it's frantic self preservation, doesn't self try to protect itself even if it is only a belief? But also the nondual teaching I have followed in the past is exactly the opposite of this; in that teaching (A Course in Miracles) it is the world that is not real, and only the Self that is, hence the void. So I have been trying to reconcile all that. But you know what I'm gonna be ok with the truth, there is no choice anyway.

Does water flow? Or is it merely acting the only way it can given a certain set of conditions? The point is the labels don’t exist as things in themselves.

Ok. I need more time with this, I agree it makes sense, but I think there is more to what you are saying and I'm not sure I'm getting it all.

May it be that life can be trusted but not thoughts about life?

Yes, life is what it is, how could it be otherwise. Even thoughts are not the problem, but maybe because we believe them more than other experiences problems arise.

[Sleepwalker]

Body? It could live there, it seems to be locus of my experiencing, that gives me a feeling of ownership.

what did YOU do to be able to claim possession of the body?

I think of my neighbor moving around his house and experiencing something different than I

If there is no you why would there be a him? Could there just be experience(Life).

So when I look in, I see no I and yet looking out other eyes look back and I don't seem to be able to understand that without the belief in self/s.

Here is a paragraph from another guide’s thread I thought might be helpful; Thats a sticky point for you, hmmm... it actually is for basically everyone, so don't worry :-)
The issue is that thought wants to experience something, or rather conceptualise an experience (thought never experiences anything, does it? it only talks about experience, right?) of one-ness... There is the belief that once I am one with everything I will have access to all thoughts, sensations, experiences etc.. I will then know what my neighbour thinks and feels. It wants one-ness but at the same time retain its self-ness. It wants to experience from an ego-point of view and have absolute omnipresence at the same time. Do you see that this idea or expectation will never be fulfilled? As long as you believe in a self having any kind of experience (a thought having an experience???) you will have the question "Why don't I experience what other selves experience?" - once you realise that there really is no self having any experience at all, that there is no owner of an experience, then the questions makes no sense anymore. Who would be experiencing the neighbours headache? He doesn't. You don't. Its simply an arising in consciousness belonging to no one...
To understand this you will have to drop the belief in a separate self - otherwise the confusion will remain :-)

I don't decide when the palm gets turned. Lots of thoughts arise "turn your palm," "turn it now," etc. but the palm moves without any decision on my part, sometimes the event arises along with a commanding thought, other times not, it is arbitrary.

Nice looking.

Number just appears.

Nothing done by YOU.

My eyes open and seeing just occurs, I don't do anything or need to do anything to have it occur. There is no one doing the seeing, seeing just happened when the eyes opened.

Right, No You doing.

Isn't fear like that? There is an accompanying body sensation that is uncomfortable.

Well like I pointed out it depends on conditions, people at the amusement park getting on the giant roller coaster or the fun house ride might have the identical sensations but experience them all together differently than someone walking alone in an alley at night hearing footsteps behind them. But in either experience there are only bodily sensations with arising thoughts. If the sensations and thoughts arise without YOU doing anything, does it make sense to claim ownership of them? What makes them yours? Without thought what makes you, you?

There would no longer be the idea of an "I," a separate self trying to overlay reality. I'm not sure how I would know I was there, clearly I can't know it at all, I keep trying to imagine what would be different, how would I know and come up blank, it seems like such a foundational shift though, I have built up this identity for all of my remembered life, so I trust that it will be known.

When you were young did you believe in Santa or the Tooth Fairy? They were fun beliefs and certainly had their advantages. At some point either you were told by older children or you woke up and saw a parent putting presents under the tree or an envelope under the pillow and you just knew Santa or the tooth Fairy did not exist. And at that very moment and from then on you never questioned whether Santa or Tooth Fairy were real. Clear as a bell. Yes the belief in separate self is built and reinforced over a lifetime. Our language ,our culture, everything reinforces it, so resistance to seeing it is built into the system so we begin by questioning and looking.

Facing the precipice just beyond, now I read that and judge myself (I know who's judging who) for being overly dramatic. But that was the feeling, that it's a void I was stepping into, I don't know if it's frantic self preservation, doesn't self try to protect itself even if it is only a belief? But also the nondual teaching I have followed in the past is exactly the opposite of this; in that teaching (A Course in Miracles) it is the world that is not real, and only the Self that is, hence the void. So I have been trying to reconcile all that. But you know what I'm gonna be ok with the truth, there is no choice anyway.

There are no wrong answers. I didn’t take it as dramatic, it is what was present. I was trying to assess if you had the belief that this was a steep dangerous climb to get to the gate or you were going to fall into the precipice after going through the gate. Yes self protection at all cost. If I don’t exist then I won’t be there to protect you. Who’s the I , whose the you? What do they consist of? What Self may be pointing to in A course in Miracles is consciousness. If that's the case this might help:If I take a glass jug of water from each, the ocean, a lake , a swamp, and a river, and look at the contents of the water under a microscope they would be seen to have very different contents( microorganism, ect , however the contents are contained in the same Water. So this can be used as an analogy of consciousness. There is only one consciousness as there is only one water, but the contents of consciousness can vary greatly. Does the water have any preference for what gets contained within it? Do the contents of the water change the water? From here on I’d say it would be best to disregard any prior teachings for the duration of our conversation. Not that they are wrong but they may muddy things up trying to interpret what is being said here by attempting to reconcile it with what you already know.

Ok. I need more time with this, I agree it makes sense, but I think there is more to what you are saying and I'm not sure I'm getting it all.

I wouldn’t try to figure it out, just see that what we take as separate THINGS are really changing conditions, that we attach labels to for the sake of communicating. There is no fixed , static state, but yet we persist in hanging on to a belief in a static and separate entity we call I.

Yes, life is what it is, how could it be otherwise. Even thoughts are not the problem, but maybe because we believe them more than other experiences problems arise.

Amen!
Please let me know your reactions to the following statement. There is no separate self, there never has been , there never will be.

[Paulette]

what did YOU do to be able to claim possession of the body?

I can't own anything, I made itself up.

There is the belief that once I am one with everything I will have access to all thoughts, sensations, experiences etc.. I will then know what my neighbour thinks and feels. It wants one-ness but at the same time retain its self-ness.

That was not exactly the expected experience that was imagined, rather a more palpable connection, but in any case I understand thought does not experience nor does it direct, control, or create experience, it is just thought an aspect of experience.

Who would be experiencing the neighbours headache? He doesn't. You don't. Its simply an arising in consciousness belonging to no one...

I understand

Well like I pointed out it depends on conditions, people at the amusement park getting on the giant roller coaster or the fun house ride might have the identical sensations but experience them all together differently than someone walking alone in an alley at night hearing footsteps behind them. But in either experience there are only bodily sensations with arising thoughts.

In one experience there is no threat, and in the other the threat is potentially real, but of course that is an accompanying thought (perhaps a very helpful thought). In any case, I understand what you are saying.

If the sensations and thoughts arise without YOU doing anything, does it make sense to claim ownership of them?

Of course not.

What makes them yours?

Nothing.

Without thought what makes you, you?

Nothing.

Yes self protection at all cost. If I don’t exist then I won’t be there to protect you. Who’s the I , whose the you? What do they consist of?

There is nothing to protect and no one to do the protecting.

There is only one consciousness as there is only one water, but the contents of consciousness can vary greatly. Does the water have any preference for what gets contained within it? Do the contents of the water change the water?

No and no.

here on I’d say it would be best to disregard any prior teachings for the duration of our conversation. Not that they are wrong but they may muddy things up trying to interpret what is being said here by attempting to reconcile it with what you already know.

I have, it's only that it came up, it was already muddying things.

Please let me know your reactions to the following statement. There is no separate self, there never has been , there never will be.

There is no separate self- agree
there never has been , there never will be-seems reasonable, but no direct experience.

[Sleepwalker]

I can't own anything, I made itself up.

Have you been able to find I outside of thought? Can a thought do anything?

I understand thought does not experience nor does it direct, control, or create experience, it is just thought an aspect of experience.

Nice!

There is no separate self- agree

Please describe in you own words how self comes to be.

there never has been , there never will be-seems reasonable, but no direct experience.

Please go into further detail as to why there is no direct experience. Thank you Paulette!

[Paulette]

Have you been able to find I outside of thought?

No It can not be found outside of thought.

Can a thought do anything?

It can arise. It can disappear.

Please describe in you own words how self comes to be.

Well, my best story is that it is learned and reinforced throughout our lives starting with in early childhood, so my identity was built as smart, maybe too smart, overly inquisitive, difficult, naughty, etc. And even though it is not static, so for example I would no longer be described as naughty or difficult, maybe instead calm and aloof, the identity persists through constant reinforcement. There is no no way to avoid it, it is part of our cultural conditioning. We believe it because it is pervasive/environmental, seeing past it takes effort and inquiry. That's my best story and it actually helped me to unravel some prior to LU but I am not sure if that's what really happened. It's all thinking. It seems plausible.

Please go into further detail as to why there is no direct experience.

because the past and the future only exist in thought.

[Paulette]

In rereading, Maybe plausible is the wrong word, helpful is more accurate.

[Sleepwalker]

No It can not be found outside of thought.
Can a thought do anything? It can arise. It can disappear.

Good !

That's my best story and it actually helped me to unravel some prior to LU but I am not sure if that's what really happened. It's all thinking. It seems plausible.

Yes , I have the sense that you see clearly in a logical way that there is no -"self", but you are waiting for the shoe to drop so to speak. That if "I" can just do something different in the future something will change and "I'll" get it.Forgive me if that's not accurate. You said in one of your posts that the future and the past only exist as thought. I agree! So there is only now. As we've seen, now can be experienced directly as thought or any of the 5 senses. Seeing as thought tends to keep us in imagination let's try a slight shift. I realize between work and being a caregiver to your husband that doesn't leave you a lot of fee time, but I'd like to urge you to set aside 20 minutes every day to do this exercise. And like exercise at the gym this has a cumulative effect. Also we tend to take exercise as being limited to the allotted time slot but isn't everything the body does a form of exercise? Walking up stairs , carrying groceries, doing laundry, ect. I'd invite you to view this exercise in the same way, it's not limited to the 20 minutes. Every time you are present in the body see how different it feels than being stuck in thought story.Thoughts of judgement will arise and they too are just part of the show. Some are useful most are complete "NON-SENSE". I know it's difficult to post everyday so I'll leave you with this exercise and hope you will take the time to BE with it, and will hear from you, when I here from you.
*Sit down and relax, but in an alert, attentive way. Simply see, hear, smell, feel, taste. Feel this aware focus of attention - an attention that is clear, not limited or encumbered by thought stories.
Thoughts may seem to intrude eventually and you may get caught up in thought-story-land -"see how it feels when exiting this story, when clear attention returns.
Now... which part of this experience feels most like you? Is there a specific sensation, maybe some pressure behind the eyes or a tingling in the chest that you would connect to this idea of a personal self? Really look and see what part of this moment, this experience, feels like "you".
Don't answer from thought based non-dual logic - don't say "there is no I, there is nothing" - be perfectly honest and look for this sense of me.Where is it? What is it? What do you find when looking in this alert way?
Note whatever comes up, no matter if it sounds strange or runs opposite to common non-dual ideas. There is only you in this game, so don't tell yourself stories that you are not really convinced of.
There really is no specific experience of no-self there is only a process of elimination that eventually leaves you with... well, you will have to find yourself, but to do this you will have to look at every little bit of doubt that stands in your way. Don't settle for less, don't settle with a logical understanding.*For Now!!

[Paulette]

Yes, I have the sense that you see clearly in a logical way that there is no -"self", but you are waiting for the shoe to drop so to speak. That if "I" can just do something different in the future something will change and "I'll" get it. Forgive me if that's not accurate.

That doesn’t feel accurate, but I’m fine with continuing… it could only lead to further deepening and clarity.

[Sleepwalker]

Thank you for your willingness to experiment.