can't find my way home

[Bill]

hello Subhudra,

Thank you for the reply.
First things first... I went in (as Im an admin here) and edited your post and put some paragraph structure into it.
I could not read it otherwise as it was one big paragraph. This must be that you're on a phone doing this? If so, there is an app called Tapatalk, that is free that renders the forum in a much more readable way. I ask that you either put some paragraphs into it... or split your posts up and make multiple posts (not preferred) as the big wall of text was too much to try and read. About the meditation.... IF you engaged in a meditation now.. feel free to continue it... but please discontinue any other reading or teaching on this subject while you are engaged here in this dialogue.

Its good you watched the video on 'looking'. This is the key thing that must be done to actually see there is no self.
Its actually a very simple thing.. its simply noticing what's here.. now. We'll touch on it a lot as we go.
I will ask questions as we go along... and you answer.... mostly just answer without thinking..
just look at what comes up.. Answer to the very best of your ability at that time
Try to avoid 'spiritually correct' answers. If you know what I mean.
There are no 'right' answers... just what comes from your 100% honesty.
And answer all questions given... they do build upon each other.

We want to look at thoughts particularly in this dialogue.
Our thoughts are huge in our experience.

Can you look carefully and tell me where thoughts arise, for you?
Can you see a point of origin, in reality?

Looking at the thoughts, do they all start out with an I attached,
or does the I attach to the thought somewhere?
In other words, are they all about you?

As in all the questions... use the looking method to find your answer.
That is, what is in your direct experience.

[Subhudra]

Hi Bill, You are right I am using my phone to reply. I will look at using Tapa talk in future. The point of original where thoughts arise is in my head. The majority start with I and result from mental analysis of the information l hold. Other thoughts with the I attached after. To differentiate between the two, I believe that love is the key to breaking down barriers as opposed to the "Be the change you want to see in the world" which I would acknowledge as holding truth so the I in this instance come in afterwards to evaluate if the I, who sits and rationalises in my head values this information to add to the database as worth retaining.

[Bill]

Hello Subhudra,

Thanks for your response and it looks like your password situation is also resolved.

Glad you watched the video on 'looking'.
Can you give me a few pertinent points from it?
It is a good one to watch several times until its really gotten.. what he's saying.

My question was about thoughts to you..
where do they originate?
Is an I attached?

you wrote: The point of original where thoughts arise is in my head. The majority start with I and result from mental analysis of the information l hold.

That appeared to come from 'looking'.. what the video is describing.. in other words from your direct experience of seeing, sensing feeling...

The rest of your answer is purely conceptual and is not what I'd call from direct experience.. but from thinking.
Thinking is not bad.. we're not trying to get rid of it... (we can't really) but in this forum, we really want your answers to come from this 'looking'.... or direct experience. You being able to do this will greatly help in this forum.

Right now I'm typing, feel my fingers poking the keyboard.. they are a little warm. I notice the blinds in my window.. I see my neighbor kid outside playing with his ball. A scent of dinner cooking with many spicy smells comes lingering up..... I feel my feet on the floor and sense a bit of tightness in my calves and ankles from exercising earlier. I notice thoughts coming up of things I need to do later. ... (go to the grocery store.. a list is forming in my head). My mood is fairly even.. not overly happy or sad..

This is an example of current or direct experience. Just what is happening here now.

Can you do this?
Write out for me your current direct experience using my example
Be thorough... this is a great exercise.

Oh - btw... the last post you made was fine and readable... if they get much longer.. then split the posts up (just make a 2nd post)

[Subhudra]

Hi Bill, thanks for your tolerance. Yes, I would say its good to watch the video several times but in my case probably more than twice. I tend to scan.

Not sure how to use the app you recommended but hope to get help with this as soon as poss.

Now for the response to your question. I am focusing on the screen to produce this email. I can feel my feet overlapping and they are comfortable. I scan the room to take a moment to think. Uncertainty is coming up, am I responding with what you are actually wanting. Confusion and despondence, I do hope so. I hear noises outside, I take in the objects in the room which are in my peripheral line of vision. I see my hands but its almost as if they belong to someone else, they are typing, in some ways this watching what I am doing makes me feel like I am just observing. I view the bookshelf, the chairs, without getting attached to them they are just observed.

[Bill]

Hello Subhudra,

that's a great description of what's going on..
This is what we mean by looking.. just noticing whats happening.

This is the core of what we're getting at in this forum.
Forever we have simply believed our thoughts without questioning them.
Like they are the truth... but really they are only thoughts....coming and going.

Give this another try on the questions I asked you.
But in answering.. Look to what you can see and notice in direct experience when answering.
Dont worry about being perfect with it. :)

Can you look carefully and tell me where thoughts arise, for you?
Can you see a point of origin, in reality?

Looking at the thoughts, do they all start out with an I attached,
or does the I attach to the thought somewhere?
In other words, are they all about you?

[Subhudra]

Hi Bill, Thank you for your patience, I apologise for the gap in responding and hope now to be more consistent. I have watched the video again and will watch it every time I log in because it contains so much information.

Your questions where do thoughts arise.. I cant find a place of origin when I look. Having looked for an area which I originally thought was in my head, its not. They just arise of their own free will. They can be triggered by external stimuli but they just jump from one thought to another and often work on their own.

Do thoughts start with an I ....Are they about you.... they often start with an I, e.g. I think this or that and when unrelated to me personally, I interpret them and adopt and take ownership, then related them to me.

Thank you for your help and guidance

[Bill]

Hello....Glad you're back. Good responses back on the questions.
Yes, we can't seem to pinpoint exactly where thoughts come up..
and it feels like they are ours.. but upon closer looking they are not.
They just come up.. we're not in control of them.

They seem to always point back to us in some way or another.... always have us as a reference point.
Most thoughts had an "I" thought implied or attached...not all.

Try this short exercise.
Look at the phone you're using
Is it truer to say, it is A phone?..... or MY phone? (if you're on a computer substitute computer for phone)

Can you attach a phone to a self? If so, how is it done?
How is something like a phone or anything 'attached' or belong to someone?
How is anything possessed? What is the process? Where is this possession done?

Use the looking method to answer these questions.... just look at your actual experience when asking them. We want the answers to be from your actual experience rather than thinking of an answer.

If you have not read the Gateless Gatecrashers pdf.. I'd recommend it as a companion to this dialogue.

http://liberationunleashed.com/wp-conte ... ashers.pdf

and also continue to watch that video if you like it . It will grow on you and the content is very applicable to what we are doing...

[Subhudra]

Bill so sorry just completed a comprehensive response to your questions and it is lost. Don't know where it is looked under all of my posts and no where to be seen, so very disappointed. Will respond again tomorrow and hopefully have better luck

[Subhudra]

Hi Bill, I hope that at the end of this submission you actually receive it. It was so disappointing last night to complete a comprehensive response to you to only find that when I pressed submit it vanished. Here I go again, fingers crossed.

Try this short exercise.
Look at the phone you're using
Is it truer to say, it is A phone?..... or MY phone? (if you're on a computer substitute computer for phone)

Looking at this computer it is truer to say it is just a computer, it is not my computer, it is an external thing. It contains data relating to me but is cannot be attached to me. Looking confirms that it is not attached to me.

Can you attach a phone to a self? If so, how is it done?
How is something like a phone or anything 'attached' or belong to someone?
How is anything possessed? What is the process? Where is this possession done?

You can't really attach a phone to a self of anything else really. There is no where for this attachment to take place.
However, having said that some items, a car, a house, personal associations, substantiate who we believe ourselves to be. I think that this is the process whereby attachment become possession. Without these props supporting who we think we are we would have to question who we 'really' are. It raised the question of what remains of the perceived us without them. Removing the comfort blankets that support our interpretation of who we think we are brings feelings of fragmentation. By abandonment of the roles we play and recognising everything external as only supporting a myth it feels as if we are consciously opting out of supporting the game, the other side of the coins is this acknowledgement could lead to freedom.

As for where is this possession done.... I feel it is in the place of emotion, internalising and thinking. Sorry Bill if I have stumbled away from seeing and entered into the realm of thinking. But it seems to be called for when answering the question regarding the process of possession and where I experiencing this as happening. I have already identified with you that thoughts have their own momentum and just are. They have no place of origin.

From my personal experience these supporting features which I regard as substantiating who I think I am also lead to separateness, individuality, supporting the belief I am. Also the emotional aspect of possession brings reassurance of safety, for example, the possession of a place to call home.

I hope this is in some way answers your questions, I welcome your insight and guidance.

[Bill]

Hello Subhudra,

Sorry that you lost your post.. this can happen here and a suggestion is to make your response in another editor...
Word, wordpad, notepad, etc.. then copy it here when done. This has happened to me also.

Try this short exercise.
Look at the phone you're using
Is it truer to say, it is A phone?..... or MY phone? (if you're on a computer substitute computer for phone)

Looking at this computer it is truer to say it is just a computer, it is not my computer, it is an external thing. It contains data relating to me but is cannot be attached to me. Looking confirms that it is not attached to me.

Great... looking confirmed the computer is just a computer.. even though we might think of it as 'ours'.

However, having said that some items, a car, a house, personal associations, substantiate who we believe ourselves to be. I think that this is the process whereby attachment become possession. Without these props supporting who we think we are we would have to question who we 'really' are. It raised the question of what remains of the perceived us without them. Removing the comfort blankets that support our interpretation of who we think we are brings feelings of fragmentation. By abandonment of the roles we play and recognising everything external as only supporting a myth it feels as if we are consciously opting out of supporting the game, the other side of the coins is this acknowledgement could lead to freedom.

Please notice that this response came solely from thought... from concepts you believe in and not from simple looking at whats here. There's lots of speculation and hypothesizing in this paragraph.
What we are doing here is to assist you to see the difference between 'what is' and thoughts about 'what is'.
If I say, "my hand is cold".. that is a thought... much different than the feeling of a cold hand that is immersed in ice water. No matter how much I describe the coldness in writing, or think about it, it can never touch the actual feeling of a cold hand immersed in ice water.
Is the thought "I see" the same as actual seeing? Do our eyes say "I see" or does seeing just happen and then later the thought "I see" comes up?
This 'looking' is going on all the time spontaneously. you might call it our primary sense of being aware. Its so basic to our nature, we have overlooked it. But when pointed out, we can easily notice it. It is going on prior to any thoughts or conceptual ideas we might have. There is a big difference between this looking/knowing (or direct experience) and conceptual thoughts, which is just words and labels.

As for where is this possession done.... I feel it is in the place of emotion, internalising and thinking. Sorry Bill if I have stumbled away from seeing and entered into the realm of thinking. But it seems to be called for when answering the question regarding the process of possession and where I experiencing this as happening.

Im going to give you the answer to this as it is so simple its easily overlooked... and you will see it immediately.
Possession is simply a thought. It takes place in thought. Thats where the attachment happens.

Tell me again.. what you are looking for here in this inquiry.
What are you hoping to happen?
-----------------------
When we are kids we get told about Santa Claus and we believe in his existence. Then at some point we find out he doesn't exist. After that nothing in reality has really changed, only the illusion of Santa being real disappears. And once this has been seen, it cannot be unseen. The concept, label, idea of Santa still exists but we can see that what it points to doesn't.

In the same way we may have the concept of 'me' but this doesn't imply that the 'me' actually exists. So if the 'me' is looked for and cannot be found, only the 'me' concept, where is the 'me'?

[Subhudra]

Hi Bill,

Thank you for your response. I struggle with the 'seeing' it is so subtle and I tend to over analyse the questions. I have experienced your comment that seeing is overlooked because I find it hard to relate to myself by just seeing. However, the exercise you gave me which involved whether it is 'a' computer or 'my computer, cut straight to the essence of what you were asking. I saw the seperation by just observing.

With reference to your question what am I looking for in this enquiry - currently I am not totally sure. I am hoping to cut through illusion of the false self and see what really exists beyond the concepts and roles built around who I perceive myself to be.

What are you hoping to happen - As I can not clearly define my expectations regarding what am I looking for I cannot clearlyy define what I hope to happen. I have no preconceived expectation but I am happy to be open and and aim to raise my awareness of who I am regarding that 'me' as is only a concept, and cannot be found.

Many thanks

[Bill]

Yes, 'looking' is a somewhat different approach than what we've been doing for many years.
We did this without thinking about it when we were very young... we just took in the world and what was happening with our senses. This is the kind of looking I'm describing. And please don't get with this that I mean that thoughts are bad or wrong or should be gotten rid of... No. Its impossible to do for more than a short time. Thoughts are not the 'problem'... its the believing that they are the sole reality that we are wanting to puncture.

If you're struggling with it... then you are coming from thought on it.. trying to figure it out.
Its prior to any figuring out.. its your primary sense of being. So just ease up and let go of trying to 'get it' or figure it out. Its been here all along.... all we want to do here is notice..... as we want to literally see the difference between direct experience (Looking) and conceptual thought.

You missed a question in the last response. Please be sure to answer all questions asked as things sometimes build on one another. I'll try and bold the questions, but even if I miss doing that, please answer all.

When we are kids we get told about Santa Claus and we believe in his existence. Then at some point we find out he doesn't exist. After that nothing in reality has really changed, only the illusion of Santa being real disappears. And once this has been seen, it cannot be unseen. The concept, label, idea of Santa still exists but we can see that what it points to doesn't.

In the same way we may have the concept of 'me' but this doesn't imply that the 'me' actually exists. So if the 'me' is looked for and cannot be found, only the 'me' concept, where is the 'me'?

[Subhudra]

Hi Bill, thanks for bringing this missed question back to my attention.

"the same way we may have the concept of 'me' but this doesn't imply that the 'me' actually exists. So if the 'me' is looked for and cannot be found, only the 'me' concept, where is the 'me'?

This is a tough one. If I am just using looking, where am I? I can see a paper trail of my life, I could have people who would give evidence to my existence. But exactly where is the 'me' if I look. I can see a physical me reflected, I understand the concept of a 'me' which is illusionary. But I struggle with where is the 'me'. I can witness my bodily form and I acknowledge that the mind just goes firing off on its own with thoughts which are not the 'me'. But where is the 'me' other than in the ways I have described. It is a tough question and I don't really know the answer other than these. If the example of the computer led me to see that it is 'a computer' then is the me just like the computer 'a me'? A form of a human being entity.

[Bill]

hi Subhudra,

Good job with the looking for the last question. You can see the flavor is quite a bit different when we actually use our senses and direct experience to see what is there vs. philosophizing and theorizing. Yes, there's a body there but finding the 'me' and pinning it down is very difficult if not impossible.....

To sum up our look at thoughts...we don't seem to know where they come from.
It seems like they are ours, but we don't know that for sure and we can't stop them from happening.
If we look at what's real, we can't really say we are in charge of them.
Yes, there's seeming control, but not ultimate control.
If there was, we'd only have good thoughts... and we know that's not the case in reality.
We also don't know what our next thought will be and we can't stop thoughts from coming.
Also, most all of our thoughts are possessive in the sense that they are about us, in some way shape or place.
Not all, to be sure, but most all. And ownership, possession is really not possible without a thought.

Do you see how literally all thoughts are stories?
We see, a label is put on what we see, and a story is developed.
Every thought is essentially past tense in its nature.
Describing something that has happened in the past.
The only thing real is what is happening right now and here.
To see this we need a willingness to see that what we
might have been thinking all along is not quite it.
Or at least open to the possibility that we have missed something.
We need a willingness to see prior to labels being put on what we see.
Can you give me an example of how a story is developed from thoughts in your own case?

Now how about the body? Is that owned and controlled in reality, by a self, by an I?
Lets look at it and see if there is an owner or entity controlling it.

Lift one of your hands. either one.
Move it to the right. Now move it left.
Look with your eyes what is happening.
Did a self move the hand?
Or did the hand just move?
Direct observation. Move it again. Check it.
Which is more true, the hand moved, or a self moved the hand?

Report back what you find.. and again.. LOOK at what is really happening.

[Subhudra]

Hi Bill,

Lots of food for thought there Bill. Thank you for such great explanations. I wouldn't be going them justice so will come back to them again sometime today.


Do you see how literally all thoughts are stories?
We see, a label is put on what we see, and a story is developed.
Every thought is essentially past tense in its nature.
Describing something that has happened in the past.
The only thing real is what is happening right now and here.
To see this we need a willingness to see that what we
might have been thinking all along is not quite it.
Or at least open to the possibility that we have missed something.
We need a willingness to see prior to labels being put on what we see.
Can you give me an example of how a story is developed from thoughts in your own case?

Yes, I definitely see how all thoughts are stories, which weave their own storyline. The thoughts spin off on their own and then set in motion a whole storyline. I don't know if every thought is past tense for example if I am currently witnessing a bird in flight I may attach a descriptive thought to it but hey I am going off track.

I am definitely open to the possibility that something might be missed by applying labels of worn out storylines.

Let see, a story developing from my thoughts, I'm going to revamp a cupboard, but how can I source what I need, I bet because I am inexperienced to revamping it will turn out a mess. It has when I've tried these things before there again if I don't try how will I learn any skill. I just have to the take the plunge and get on with it. Who knows it could surprise me. I am not a practical person really I am more an ideas person that more my forte.

This is a story from thought. Now for the other exercise.

Lift one of your hands. either one.
Move it to the right. Now move it left.
Look with your eyes what is happening.
Did a self move the hand?
Or did the hand just move?
Direct observation. Move it again. Check it.
Which is more true, the hand moved, or a self moved the hand?

I lifted my right hand moved it from left to right. I saw it move slowly from left to right. I witnessed the nails some being broken and all different lengths. I saw the way my hand shape was flexed and looked attached to the end of my arm. My hand a self move the hand. No a self didn't move the hand, the hand moved because of an instruction by you to do so. It just moved. Looked again, it is more true the hand moved than the self moved the hand. There doesn't seem a self making a connection with my body activity. It is external stimuli.

Witnessing the hand moving brought up quite a strange sensation of it being 'a' body. When I looked and thought look at that arm or hand, it was as if I was seeing them as just 'a' arm and hand. I felt quite detached from the them due to just witnessing them.

Many thanks Bill