Looking for guidance and pointers

[KevinD]

Great stuff, Jay.

You might be able to see now why I'm looking to tap into your experience rather than your knowledge or even understanding.

Let's expand on this a bit and look at the self as a chooser.

Take two objects/possibilities, of which you might ordinarily choose either e.g. coffee or tea, blue pen or black pen, salt and pepper, then sit and see if you can find the choice-point where you could go either way. Describe how choosing happens.

Great work.
Keep it up.

Best,
Kevin

[Jayh2250]

Hi Kevin,

This was similarly interesting as the last, except the decision to pick choose an object that was resided outside the body. The general idea was the same however, however this experience is much more interesting.

I chose blue and black pen (tea was clear winner over coffee for me :-) ) for the exercise. When act on deciding all kind of thoughts started in my head, even a one when I was younger using blue pen. Initially, mind started to compare using historical information, including what I currently use (mostly black) and connecting/creating stories from the past and projecting as a valid reasons to pick one or the other. As I mention blue pen looked more stylish (another story about what is stylish) along with past usage. Black writing would looked presentational and intelligent (another story, etc. I was looking for reasons where one would stand out better than the other. I don't think I clearly measure point by point black would be better, but it seemed a good choice. So I picked black, but I could have picked blue as well. Why? Unlike Coffee vs. Tea where ongoing habit and familiar/acquired taste (also based on memory) would be much more clear compare to picking a pen.

A simple decision to pick one pen required much more processing pulling information and stories from the past and somehow I picked one. There were many thoughts to "just pick one", "pick this one", etc. Not really sure if I made the choice or I was justifying the choice that was perhaps already made. When I picked a pen the everything seems spontaneous and without any effort. Regardless it felt weird to spend so much energy when the decision was already in a play.

All this reminded me of an event in a move The Matrix (not sure if you have watched), where Oracle tells the Neo that he has already made the decision, he is here to understand why he made it. I felt something like that. I was justifying the reasons, but it felt effortless when I picked one over the other. May be I had put a deliberate brakes on something that was inevitable and effortless anyway.

[KevinD]

Hi Jay,

I love the analogy of the Matrix. I see so much more in that movie now than I ever had.
Makes me wonder about the writers.

Really interesting how you recount the interplay of thoughts and their apparent relationship with actions.

Let's take a look at how thoughts and self relate to each other.

Are you the thinker of thoughts?
Can you think and choose a thought?

Can you stop a thought midstream?

Are you able to resist thinking about a pink rabbit, now that I've said it?

Nice work so far, keep digging deep.

Best,
Kevin

[Jayh2250]

Hi Kevin,

Are you the thinker of thoughts?

Thoughts just come or happens. Even I want to think about something is also a thought. I have no control over it; as a matter of fact controlling a thought is also a thought. So it a perpetual loop with no way out.

I don't know where thoughts come from but it comes without any prior knowledge of what it will be, when will it come and any control over it.

Can you think and choose a thought?

Thinking and choosing a thought is another thought. So what led to thinking and choosing a thought? Which is also another thought. So this perpetual strings keep going without any end. There is no "me" at the central command directing. I think this is important realization for me to see there is something beyond my understanding is at play.

Who is choosing what I am writing in this message? Writing just happens due to thoughts. Since I don't control thoughts, therefore I can't be the one writing. My thoughts are the author(s). However it feels that I am aware of this fact, but not in control.

Can you think and choose a thought?

I can't stop thoughts in mid-stream. Even an act of stopping a thought is another thought, which I don't control. Another thought may disrupt a thought, at least it feels that way. For example remembering to send email to someone before noon today. But all is happening without my direction.

Are you able to resist thinking about a pink rabbit, now that I've said it?

Irony is that as soon as I think about resisting, I think about it anyway and even more intensely. There seems to be pull and push mechanism. It's like not-thinking about something gives more energy to thoughts you are not trying to think. So letting it go helps the transition without getting it stuck controlling thoughts which can't be control anyway.

[KevinD]

Hi Jay,

...as a matter of fact controlling a thought is also a thought. So it a perpetual loop with no way out.

Wonderful observation.

There is no "me" at the central command directing. I think this is important realization for me to see there is something beyond my understanding is at play.

Marvelous.
This is outside the scope of our investigation, but it might be worth examining what is the me that has the understanding.

Let's take a look at how an apparent self relates to the body.
Solely from direct experience:
Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinesthetic)?
Does the body experience sensations and thoughts?

Great work, Jay.

Best,
Kevin


[Jayh2250]

Hi Kevin,

Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinesthetic)?

"Body" is just a name for a common objects for people, animals, birds, ..... a generic word for catch-all (mine and others). My body feels sensation, like touching keys on a keyboard. So, thought comes "my hands are cold" (body and hands same concept). Thoughts links the experience to a label hand/body. The raw experience seems to get lost in the label.

Does the body experience sensations and thoughts?

I experiences sensation just now by picking a cup of team and immediately thought labelled it as hot. "Body" is just a label, therefore label cannot experience anything. An strange thing I just noticed, thoughts seems to communicate only dominant information like "cup is hot", but it misses all other relevant information like texture, smoothness, weight, etc. So basically I experience fraction of experience. Wow. just noticed a tremendous amount of information/experience being lost.

As previously discussed, mind is obligated to put labels on all experience, perhaps a way to store information as memory for future retrial (e.g. good for survival: if you see a predator, you can quickly retrieve information and act quickly). However it seems to me that mind generisize/generalize the experience to fit into a pre-defined buckets.

Because of the architectural design of the mind, it's good for something and not good for other things. It seems to strips off details of true experience, which may be unique every time. Thoughts seems to support the minds model which is based on stored information, objects and relations between objects. BTW all this side track mumbo-jumbo is my IT background trying to understand the design. Just another thought :-)

I don't see how thoughts can articulate raw experience, so it must use previously learned labels for objects to communicate.

We have both information available to us: 1) raw feeling/sensation and 2) objectified thoughts about the experience. Both seems to have value, so since we have master the object/label world, how do we focus on raw experience more? I am trying to use all my senses without judging, interpreting, expectation,...;simply not give mind to do anything with raw information. But, it's a deliberate effort from my part. Not so natural. How others do it better?


Best,
Jay

[KevinD]

Hi Jay,

Great noticing!!
You've touched on the value of direct experience, and as you can see from the signature on my posts, I find it extremely important to this exercise we are undertaking.

I'd like to explore this a bit further, because this direct experience (DE) is exactly where I want you reaching for observations.

Try these:

Go line up a favourite piece of music on an iPod or whatever player is convenient for you.
Don't play it yet.
Now, think of what that tune sounds like. Try to remember all of the sounds that come from that piece. Go for as long as you can to remember that piece.
When you're done, play the music from whatever player you have.


What is the difference between what you thought (Conceptual thinking) and what you heard (Direct experience)?


Go grab a piece of fruit from the fridge (an apple or orange or grapes, etc.)
Set it away from you, and think about what that fruit tastes like.
Savour in thought everything that flavour would bring.


When done, take a bite from that fruit.


What was the difference between the experiences of what you thought (conceptual) and what you tasted (direct experience)?


Put an object on the table, maybe a rock or something.
Think about how that object would feel. All the nooks and crannies, go over them in your mind.
Now, pick it up and feel all those features.


What was the difference between what you thought (conceptual) and what you felt (direct experience)?


Do the same thing with an odor, maybe a cologne or a flower.
Think about that smell.
Then smell it.


What was the difference between the two experiences?


Continue this as many times as you want to ensure the difference between direct experience and conceptual thinking is crystal clear.


Thank you,


Kevin

[Jayh2250]

Hi Kevin,

We did this exact exercise earlier, so do you want to go over it again? Please let me now?

Thanks,
Jay

[KevinD]

Hi Jay,

Sorry, my bad.
I think I need a little more sleep.
No need to do that over again.

I'd like to recap what we've done so far.

With 'you' revealed as a thought story, what remains?

What experiences?

What thinks?

What does?

What is aware?

Nice work so far.

Best,
Kevin

[Jayh2250]

Hi Kevin,

With 'you' revealed as a thought story, what remains?

Thoughts itself remains along with emotions and feelings. With realization of no "you", then there has to be realization of no other(s).

What experiences?

All experiences are raw coming into awareness and then it seems to be interpreted by mind to make some sense based on habits, past emotional experience, other stored information, etc.

It requires ongoing focus and relaxation with no expectation/interruption to stay focus with raw experience.
Not easy with day to day life.

What thinks?

Thinking seems be part of the mind. Always busy trying to make conclusions, judgements, planning, problem solving, etc. I am not always aware of thoughts, but it just happens without trying.

Best,
Jay

[KevinD]

Hi Jay,

Excellent looking.

Now the last two on that list:

What does?

What is aware?


Best,
Kevin

[Jayh2250]

Hi Kevin,

What does?

Most of it clearly just happens automatically, walking, sitting, looking, hearing, thinking, etc. Some of doing gives an illusion of "I" or the decision maker, but as discussed previously that it's also just happens. Basically no doer, just an illusion of doer. Thoughts just taking ownership of doing, but doing just happens.

What is aware?

Awareness is aware. It is aware of itself and what is perceived including thoughts, body, five senses, etc.

I have been meditating on what is aware of what's seen, heard, etc. Not specifically focusing on the content what's seen or heard, instead just looking upstream and simply aware of awareness where all appears and disappears.

[KevinD]

Hi Jay,

That's fantastic.
Great observations.


Can you say without a blink of hesitation that there isn't now, nor has there ever been, a separate self?

Thanks,

Kevin

[Jayh2250]

yes!

[KevinD]

Most excellent, Jay.

I'd like to run these questions by you before I ask my colleagues to review this thread.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

Nice work, Jay.

Best,

Kevin