Simple realization

[QuantSelfLaFont]

I see my right arm, legs...it is clear, pretty simple...far from step 1. There is no mystery, it is a direct experience without effort, compromise.

Question: If you took your finger and pointed at "I" when looking in DE, what are you pointing at?

[ecoti161]

Nothing, the "I" stop existing when the thoughts stop, i.e., stop believing. It is not a DE. It is a T.

[QuantSelfLaFont]

Nothing, the "I" stop existing when the thoughts stop, i.e., stop believing. It is not a DE. It is a T.

Yes, you got it.

Let's go back to your question:

Or does it means that thoughts can experience DE?

Question: If the "I" stops when thought stop, what or who is experiencing DE?

[ecoti161]

Nothing, noone! The DE stands for itself.

[QuantSelfLaFont]

Nothing, noone! The DE stands for itself.

Ok, good noticing.

Exercise: Look at right hand, palm up. Flip hand over, see back of hand. Flip hand, see palm. Flip, back. Flip palm.

Question: Who, or what, controls the flip of the hand? How does that work?

[ecoti161]

Noone, nothing!
Action reaction, i.e., deterministic system.

[ecoti161]

...or unknown...

[QuantSelfLaFont]

Noone, nothing!

Good noticing.

Exercise: "The 'I' is an illusion. It does not, nor has it ever, existed." Sit with that statement then tell me your reaction. What thoughts, emotions and sensations arise?

[ecoti161]

There isn't any specific thoughts, pretty much empty.
There is a senstation of peace and warm.
However, some...difficult to describe...awarness of the body arises... deeper presence of the body is perhaps a better description.
Pretty similar to the experience from meditation...

[QuantSelfLaFont]

There isn't any specific thoughts, pretty much empty.
There is a senstation of peace and warm.

Great. The perspective seems solid. Try these questions. Take your time:

Question 1: Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there
ever?

Question 2: Explain what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

Question 3: Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How
does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

[ecoti161]

Question 1:
There is not separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form. It was never there.

Question 2:
The illusion of separate self is a thought. It starts in childhood by endoctrination from the environement as everyone as a "I", they just called and call me "you" giving/maintening the separate sel illusion. Separate self works by identification/appropriation to/of the thoughts arising from the body existence, the body sensations, the awarness, the environement...sucking everything to maintain its illusatory existence.

Question 3:
Decision and intention are just happening.
Free will, choice and control are illusions from the mind, working similarly to the separate self.
Things are just happening, the result of certain physical law, previous events and present situation: the product of nature.
I am not and thus cannot be responsible, things just flow.
An example: coming home and taking away my shoes, cloth. I can observe that I have no control. It is going by itself (You exercise with the hand was a revelation).
My attitude in front of the computer at the moment is a similar experience in fact. More and more things start to be like that... feeling like observing life trapped in a body.

[QuantSelfLaFont]

Great. Seeing is happening. Now answer these three.

Question 1: How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days.

Question 2: What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

Question 3: Anything to add?

Thanks!

[ecoti161]

Question 1:
It is a mixed of surprise and release.
The main difference before starting this dialogue is firstly the inner peace. I had such state before but had to work it out in some way. Now, thoughts are quickly identified for what they are, the peace is just here. The second difference is the observation of my daily activities. I become more aware of the automatic. Start to understand the word surrender.
I was pretty tired during 2 days after the "flip hand" exercise. This exercise output was a surprise. It was even some struggle to go work and find motivation the day after. Otherwise, everything is pretty fine.

Question 2:
The "flip hand" exercise was the key.

Question 3:
I am extremely grateful for your time and guiding as well as to all the poeple who initiated the website and all the other helping to maintain it.
Many things I red are becoming clear, obvious.
I feel like reborn in some way and think to all the people fighting with their thoughts.
It seems that a new journey is starting!

[QuantSelfLaFont]

Great!

I am going to have some other Guides look at our discussion to ensure I have not missed anything. Be back with you shortly.

[QuantSelfLaFont]

Hi,

A few clarifying questions.

Question 1: Are you absolutely sure you have seen through the illusion of self?

Question 2: You said

feeling like observing life trapped in a body.

Can you clarify what is trapped?


Question3: Early on in the discussion you wrote

Firstly,there is some need of approval to surmount some fear that the present state will not disappear

How would you describe the difference in state from then to now? What happened to the fear?


Thank you!