Looking for a guide

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Desert Dog
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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby Desert Dog » Wed Jan 13, 2016 9:51 am

Hi Adam,
If there is no such separate observer, then the only conclusion I can draw from that is that it only exists as a concept in my thoughts, created by the brain, likely influenced by idea's from other people/books, picked up throughout my life. An in that case, it's just my brain observing the thoughts it produces itself, pretending somehow to be a separate observer with it's own identity.
Great bit of looking.
Since thoughts/feelings are generated by the brain, which is a part of the body, all that seems to remain is that "I" points to the body.
Let's stay with this for a bit. So just to check, are you your body? Is "I" in your body?

Does the body experience sensations or thoughts?

Vali

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adamc
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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby adamc » Wed Jan 13, 2016 10:18 am

Are you your body? Is "I" in your body?
I wouldn't say "I" is inside my body, no, but I still have the feeling that what I earlier described as the collection of body/thoughts/feelings is the closest real/physical reference to "I" that there is. Does that make me my body? I don't know. I think my brain is trying to reject that notion. But if I am not my body, then I don't know what else there is.

The past story of "I", is the collection of thoughts that my brain had and actions that my body did over the years of its life. The future story of "I" ,which largely directs my body's present actions, is the collection of thoughts my brain has regarding hopes and wishes for the coming years. That "I" is abstract, and not real. I see that.

I will spend some more time looking at these two questions.
Does the body experience sensations or thoughts?
Yes, I think so. The brain, which is a part of the body, seems to create my thoughts. The body and brain also feel sensations like pain or anger.

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Desert Dog
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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby Desert Dog » Wed Jan 13, 2016 10:46 am

The brain, which is a part of the body, seems to create my thoughts.
Is this something observed in direct experience (ie via the senses) or more speculation and ideas?

Have you actually seen or experienced the brain?

Try sitting quietly and take your time to observe thoughts coming and going. Can you find in direct experience (ie via the senses) an exact place where thoughts are being created? Can you find, again in direct experience, a thing that is creating these thoughts?

Kindness

Vali

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adamc
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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby adamc » Thu Jan 14, 2016 9:09 am

Is this something observed in direct experience (ie via the senses) or more speculation and ideas?
I wouldn't call it speculation, as brain activity is a scientifically measurable thing. But if you ask me if I can observe it directly, then no, I can't. But, when I am having thoughts, it "feels" as if they are positioned in my head. So in a way, I sense them being present in the brain.
Have you actually seen or experienced the brain?
I have not seen my brain, or experienced it directly, but I know indirectly it's controlling my body via nerve signals, and I have experienced the results of that.
Try sitting quietly and take your time to observe thoughts coming and going. Can you find in direct experience (ie via the senses) an exact place where thoughts are being created? Can you find, again in direct experience, a thing that is creating these thoughts?
No, they just seem to appear out of nowhere and disappear into nowhere as well. But again, depending on the thought, they "feel" positioned in my head. Visual memory thoughts seem to be positioned more in front of my eyes, as if I were seeing it without looking, and thoughts that articulate some kind of word or sentence seem to be located closer to my mouth, as if I were trying to say them out loud without speaking. But in general, they just seem to hover around.

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Desert Dog
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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby Desert Dog » Thu Jan 14, 2016 10:23 am

I wouldn't call it speculation, as brain activity is a scientifically measurable thing. But if you ask me if I can observe it directly, then no, I can't.
When I say speculation what I mean is from the perspective of direct experience, so as you say you weren't able to observe thoughts begin created by the brain or directly see the brain.
No, they just seem to appear out of nowhere and disappear into nowhere as well.
Great, really nice observation. Where it 'feels' that thoughts are doesn't really matter for this process. What we are doing is looking for the 'self', the 'I'. So in relation to what you observed above with thoughts appearing out of nowhere and disappearing into nowhere:

Can you find an "I" that is creating these thoughts?

Can you find an "I" that can control these thoughts?

Can you find an "I" that is observing the appearance and disappearance of these thoughts?


Again, from direct experience rather than any ideas about what might or seem to be happening.

If for any of the above questions you find an "I" please describe the "I" that has been found.

Vali

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adamc
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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby adamc » Thu Jan 14, 2016 10:57 am

Can you find an "I" that is creating these thoughts?

Can you find an "I" that can control these thoughts?

Can you find an "I" that is observing the appearance and disappearance of these thoughts?
No, they seem to appear out of nowhere, despite the fact that to some extent I seem to be able to control what thoughts I want to appear, or what I want to think about. Although, now that I've written that down, I'm not too sure about that being the case anymore. In fact, it might be the opposite.

I tried to experiment with that a bit, but it seems that the thoughts that appear are mostly related to things I've either experienced, seen, heard or thought of before. There doesn't seem to be a mechanism for "me" to "create" a specific thought. It's as if thoughts just appear, and then I can observe them, and then they disappear again.

Something seems to be observing that process, but I can't find in direct observation what it is.

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Desert Dog
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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby Desert Dog » Thu Jan 14, 2016 11:09 am

Wonderful!

It's all quite strange isn't it? Strange and mysterious.

How about perception - is there an "I" that sees, hears, smells, touches, tastes?

Let's focus on sound. Take some time to be aware of sounds that are happening. Try to notice what happens when a sound occurs. Where is that sound experienced? Is there an "I" hearing that sound or is sound just simply heard?

Vali

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adamc
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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby adamc » Thu Jan 14, 2016 7:27 pm

Yes, indeed it is, a strange sensation to experience this.
Where is that sound experienced? Is there an "I" hearing that sound or is sound just simply heard?
Although the sounds themselves are interpreted as directional, and sometimes with a clearly defined source, the experience of the sound appears to be just like with thoughts, e.g. the sound hearing just starts, and then ends when the sound stops, without a clearly defined place where this "hearing" occurs.

As soon as the sound is over, sometimes I'm almost left wondering if it was actually there in the first place or if I just made it up.

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Desert Dog
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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby Desert Dog » Thu Jan 14, 2016 7:33 pm

That 'sounds' really great.

Have a bit more of a play with this and also with the other senses, for example touch and sight are good ones to 'look' at. Is there an 'I' touching or can you find an 'I' that sees. Or is there just seeing and touching?

Let me know what you find.

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adamc
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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby adamc » Fri Jan 15, 2016 8:17 am

Hi Vali,

I'm still looking, will do what you suggested some more and come back with my findings soon.

Cheers,
Adam

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Desert Dog
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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby Desert Dog » Fri Jan 15, 2016 8:46 am

Great, take your time.

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adamc
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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby adamc » Sat Jan 16, 2016 10:40 am

I find seeing similar to having an ongoing stream of thoughts. As long as my eyes are open, it's like having one long thought. And when I really focus on what I'm seeing, it feels I can get "lost" in seeing, just as you'd get lost in thoughts.

I find it easy to relate to the idea that seeing is just seeing. It happens, just like thoughts seemed to happen, and then it stops when I close my eyes and that's it. There's not necessarily anything else (an I) involved with it.

I had more difficulty with touch. Since that literally requires the interaction of my body with something else, I find it hard to experience touching on it's own, without relating it to the body (e.g. the body touches).

So to summarise, with thoughts, I had the most clear perception of them just "being". With sound it felt kind of similar. Vision was a bit harder to have that same experience with, and touch didn't quite work.

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Desert Dog
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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby Desert Dog » Sat Jan 16, 2016 11:43 pm

Hi Adam,
I find seeing similar to having an ongoing stream of thoughts. As long as my eyes are open, it's like having one long thought. And when I really focus on what I'm seeing, it feels I can get "lost" in seeing, just as you'd get lost in thoughts.
The visual sense can be hard to explore as often there is so much coming in at the same time so can help to simplify things. Try putting a single object like an apple on a table and sit looking at it. Initially look in 'wide angle' mode - just gazing in the rough direction of the object without focus. After a while you can start to focus more on the object. See what happens. Are thoughts arising, is labelling happening? Are labels required in order for the seeing to happen? Imaging you forgot the name for the object (eg apple), would seeing still occur? Take time to explore the process of perceiving the object, where is the perceiving happening. Is the perception happening in a single place, a single point?

Is there an "I" found in this process of seeing the object? Is there a seer separate from the seen?

If you get overwhelmed by thoughts you can try moving back to 'wide angle' mode for a while and then slowly refocus back on the object and explore more.

Vali

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adamc
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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby adamc » Mon Jan 18, 2016 8:06 am

Are thoughts arising, is labelling happening?
Yes, thoughts are arising. Not so much labelling perse, but rather associations. For example, I see clover in the lawn, and I think about how it's time I should mow it. I see a particular plant, I think about how bad it looked in winter and how well it recovered. When I put explicitly think about labelling things, I do attach labels the moment I see something, but this is again associative behaviour because I just thought about doing that. It doesn't come naturally as much though.
Are labels required in order for the seeing to happen?
No, not at all.
Imaging you forgot the name for the object (eg apple), would seeing still occur?
Definitely, and my brain would be working overtime to either find the name (if I'm trying to talk about it), or if the item is unknown, figure out what it is.
Take time to explore the process of perceiving the object, where is the perceiving happening. Is the perception happening in a single place, a single point?
Not really. I got the feeling it's just happening. It's everywhere. There is a clear focal point as to where the eyes are aiming, but overall I got the feeling that the seeing just "is".
Is there an "I" found in this process of seeing the object? Is there a seer separate from the seen?
I cannot find one.
If you get overwhelmed by thoughts you can try moving back to 'wide angle' mode for a while and then slowly refocus back on the object and explore more.
No, it was a good experience, with a lot of clarity. If just gazing in a general direction, I find that random thoughts often start creeping in and while the seeing is still there, the brain decides to shift its attention towards those thoughts. This is then easily interrupted again by seeing motion, or hearing a sound, which shifts the brains attention to that particular object or to the direction of the sound.

But my overall impression was that seeing just happens, and the brain tries hard to interpret and associate what is seen with something it already knows.

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Desert Dog
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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby Desert Dog » Mon Jan 18, 2016 9:12 pm

Great bit of looking Adam, well done.

Lets try something else. Try doing something active like walking. Can you find a controller that controls the walking? Do the same for other activities and see what you find.

Vali


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