self inquiry

[Ilona]

Well, all experiences are temporary, they come and go. And no feeling is final, including bliss..

I still feel identified with the voice in my head, that labels things, that provides commentary on what is happening, that trys to solve problems and understand things, i feel like i am the author of this voice and i get lost in it.

Let's examine that voice in the head. Is is speaking to you or for you? What is the voice speaking to? Can you stop the voice from chatting at will? Do you know what the voice will say before it says that? Is it the voice that gets lost in the voice? Or it's a all a story about a voice?

Look deeper, write what you find out.

Sending love

[bobbyward]

'' is it speaking to you or for you ''
this is very confusing, its not speaking to me because apart from the voice there is no one here, it feels like its speaking for me.

'' what is the voice speaking to ''
its not speaking to anything, its just speaking

'' can i stop the voice ''
No, theres no I apart from the voice to stop it.

'' do i know what it will say next ''
No

'' is it the voice that gets lost in the voice, or is it all a story about the voice ''
It seems to be both, as in the voice will talk to itself, but also the voice will tell storys about the voice.

i think a big part of the reason im identified with the voice is, with other experiences like the movement of my body for example i am effortlessly mindful of them, there is just an effortless witnessing of them. with the voice i can be mindful of it if i try but im unconscious to it the vast majority of the time and get lost in it.

[Ilona]

Thank you for answers.

so the voice is talking to itself, just talking... then what is that identifies? really have a look here, what is that identity sticks to? what is that needs identity? what is the glue made of?


sending love

[bobbyward]

it seems to be thought trying to maintain an identity, theres nothing there for identity to stick to. i think thought is so habitually believed and has so much momentum behind it that when im not conscious of it i get lost in it without realising its just arising and not belonging to anyone.

I feel less identified with the voice today, iv been examining it and trying to be mindful of it and looking to see who it belongs to.

[Ilona]

a good question to ask here, is there a who? what does question who? refer to? of course when we talk to people, it is normal to ask this question and use language as it is, but in actuality, what does this word really mean?


sending love.

[bobbyward]

no there is no who all sensations are independent of an identity, the voice can be deceptive though, especially when it talks in the first person. A week ago my experience was that i was an entity inside my head looking out at the world, and perceiving things, whats how i would describe '' who ''.

[Ilona]

Interesting.. How about now? Is the voice/ thinking something that has an identity?
Is there a real and fake identity?

How is it going these days? What are you noticing?

Sending love

[bobbyward]

now it feels like there is a witnessing of everything, instead of entity in my head that controls things and makes decisions. I dont know about a real or fake identity, maybe you could say the voice assumes a fake identity when it talks in the first.

its going good, the shift to witnessing is feeling more normal now, im less conscious of it. something else i like to notice is when im out, just looking at people going about there day and getting a sense that, this is all just happening without anybody doing it.

after the self has been seen through do you think its necessary or helpful to do some sort of meditation practice ?

[bobbyward]

also when negative emotions are coming up they are alot less intense than before, and for the most part they are allowed to be there without a need to get rid of them.

[Ilona]

also when negative emotions are coming up they are alot less intense than before, and for the most part they are allowed to be there without a need to

Sounds that something has changed there. Nice.
Do you have any more burning questions?

Sending love

[bobbyward]

after the self has been seen through do you think its necessary or helpful to do some sort of meditation practice ?

does this no self experience lead to a non duality experience or is that a different path and process to get there ?

[Ilona]

Meditation is always good, is it necessary? Well, what do you think about that? It happens, or not.
No self- non duality, - non symbolic experience... It has many names. Same stuff, different labels.
But, it's not about experience. It's about recognition. Experiences come and go, all states are impermanent. No need to cling to any or try to replicate what already happened. Seeing is available here now, always.
Hope that answers your question.

Are you ready for the "final questions"?

Sending love.

[bobbyward]

Ok ask me the final questions

[Ilona]

Sweet! Here they are :)

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Can you talk about decision, intention, free will, choice and control? What makes things happen? How does it work? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

Please answer in full, when ready.

Much love.

[bobbyward]

1) no there is no separate self, there is a body, sensations, emotions and thoughts, but no one at the centre of them controlling them. and there never was a separate self.

2) the illusion of separate self is the sense that i am the author of thoughts,, the thinker of thoughts and the controller of the body. I used to feel like i was an entity inside my head thinking thoughts, controlling the body and looking out perceiving the world.

3)I feel alot more calmer, peaceful, alot less interested in thoughts, less of a compulsion to do things and life is more impersonal now. negative thoughts and emotions are alot less intense and for the most part are allowed to be there without trying to push them away. there is a witnessing of the body, emotions, sensations and thoughts rather than feeling i am the controller of them.

4) I was reading the book gateless gatecrashers and noticed my experience had changed, it just crept up on me, dont know what exactly it was that pushed me over the edge.

5) well there cant be any free will, choice or control because there is no one here to control or choose, the body/mind does what it does based on conditioning and circumstances. there is no control of thoughts they just arise from no were based on conditioning and circumstances. things just happen, there is just a compulsion to do things, at times thoughts arise and that leads to action.