Nothing left to want

[Danute]

Hello Kay,

Okay….I want to introduce an exercise now. We can go on discussing this forever…and this is not what this process is about. It’s about you LOOKING with AE to see through beliefs to get to the recognition of seeing that there is no such thing as a separate individual aka “person”.

I assure you that parsing things out this way has not been a waste of my time. It has truly challenged me and helped me understand important distinctions about what it means to be looking with AE. No accident that you indulged me here. I am avidly reading and taking in everything you write. (It hasn’t been too much nor too little.) Thank you!

I am excited to do the exercise you present, keeping in mind the distinctions that you have provided for me.

In the past, I have noticed how thoughts were arising randomly and how they were mostly untrue. But I never saw their content as unreal. This will be new to me, as well as noticing the gap between thoughts.

I will let you know what I experience!

Gratitude-
and I daresay love,
Danute

[forgetmenot]

Hey Danute,

With the 'Looking at thought' exercise. Don't worry about any distinctions. Just notice thoughts as they arise and notice the gap....that is all the exercise is asking you to do. We will go further into thoughts once this exercise has been completed and you tell me how you found the exercise and what you found.

Love Kay

[Danute]

Hi Kay,

I enjoyed the exercise very much.

When I tried it in short increments throughout the day, I noticed thoughts about how the gaps always seemed to be DE:

I noticed sensations of breathing
I noticed sensations of heaviness in my body.
I noticed color and shape (if my eyes were open) and noticed sharpness and clarity of form.

I also noticed that the gaps were soon followed by assessments, judgments or evaluations about the gap experience

For instance, thoughts about:

"That was easy, pleasurable, timeless, peaceful, visually sharp, clear... etc."
"If I direct my attention to breathing and sensing my body, I can interrupt thoughts and prolong gaps."
"My thoughts are unfinished. How can I know what they are? I cut them off by shifting into DE as soon as I notice I am thinking. Am I repressing thoughts? Am I doing this wrong?"

Then when I got home, I tried to observe my thoughts and the gaps for about 40 minutes.

I was aware that my thoughts are rarely fully formed even when I am not trying to interrupt them. My thoughts are more like floating images that are beginning to transform into something else (like a dreamscape that keeps changing.)

In the 40 minute session, again I noticed breathing, sensations in my body that my thoughts describe as heavy, undulating pressure (just normal breathing sensations.)

My eyes were closed (it was dark) and I noticed sounds more acutely. I felt the sounds in my body, and I also felt myself to be the sound and to be in the sound outside of my body (as well as inside.) In other words, I felt myself to be as big as the sound and the space all around me. I was the whole space around me and it was light, easy, timeless, smooth and sharp... peaceful, and sustained for longer periods. I am describing thoughts that portray the experience to describe it, not to believe or disbelieve any of it.

I did not notice smell or taste.

In the thoughts between gaps, I felt nothing that would indicate tiredness. (It is late--2 am--I have had a long day, my body is throbbing a little from working physically, but I felt no discomfort or reluctance to continue observing. I don't want to miss a day of this work.)

I felt a calm, unhurried alertness, a pleasurable clarity of awareness, an interest in paying attention. I did not find a reason to stop, other than wanting to report and judging that I should do so soon, in order to get sleep for tomorrow's work.

I wonder why I don't do this more often, because it feels so good, so free, so timeless, and peaceful to curtail my thoughts and return to DE without allowing any thoughts to form that might try to attribute some random meaning to the DE.

That's how it went.

With love and gratitude for your precise pointing for how and where look,
Danute

[forgetmenot]

Hello Danute,

Thank you for taking the time to really sit with this exercise. I really appreciate your willingness and diligence.

I enjoyed the exercise very much.

That’s great because I have a whole heap more! :)

When I tried it in short increments throughout the day, I noticed thoughts about how the gaps always seemed to be DE:

I noticed sensations of breathing
I noticed sensations of heaviness in my body.
I noticed color and shape (if my eyes were open) and noticed sharpness and clarity of form.

Yes, there is never ‘nothing’ going on!

I would like for you to have another look. Look carefully and in those instances where the ‘gap’ seemingly appears, and AE is. Is it quiet or does thought still label whatever is going on?

What was noticed was the sensation of breathing. How was this known unless it was labelled “sensation of breathing” at the time of noticing?

What was noticed was colour and shape. How was colour and shape known unless it was labelled “colour and shape” at the time of noticing?

"That was easy, pleasurable, timeless, peaceful, visually sharp, clear... etc."
"If I direct my attention to breathing and sensing my body, I can interrupt thoughts and prolong gaps."
"My thoughts are unfinished. How can I know what they are? I cut them off by shifting into DE as soon as I notice I am thinking. Am I repressing thoughts? Am I doing this wrong?"

This too I would like for you to have another look please. Pay attention and look closely.

How is it known that you are “cutting them off by shifting into DE”? Even in absolute silence everything is being labelled. Listen to the ringing in the ears and notice that as soon as that is heard it is labelled.

Can you see this?

What is it exactly that is thinking? Describe to me in detail what is thinking. I don’t want an intellectual response…but look with AE and tell me what it is exactly that is thinking.

Where is the “I” that can “interrupt thoughts and prolong gaps” located?

My eyes were closed (it was dark) and I noticed sounds more acutely.

And in noticing the sounds, did you notice how the sounds were immediately labelled?

Please answer the questions in blue individually using the quote function.

Love Kay

[Danute]

Hi Kay,

Yes, bring on the exercises! I am motivated to see through the conceptualizing and the labeling.

What was noticed was the sensation of breathing. How was this known unless it was labelled “sensation of breathing” at the time of noticing?

What was noticed was the sensation of breathing. How was this known unless it was labelled “sensation of breathing” at the time of noticing?

What was noticed was colour and shape. How was colour and shape known unless it was labelled “colour and shape” at the time of noticing?

I wasn't aware of labeling at the time, but I was aware that I was intending to focus on anything around me, in this case bodily sensations, to avoid thinking.... but I presently see how there was still a "me" and "objects" of observation, not to mention an intention (supposedly "mine"), and a will that believes it is in control of something.

How is it known that you are “cutting them off by shifting into DE”? Even in absolute silence everything is being labelled. Listen to the ringing in the ears and notice that as soon as that is heard it is labelled.

Can you see this?

Yes, I see how there is thinking, labeling, interpreting, and "looking for the gap." Perhaps there have been no gaps at all?

I will look again!

10 hours later:

How is it known that you are “cutting them off by shifting into DE”? Even in absolute silence everything is being labelled. Listen to the ringing in the ears and notice that as soon as that is heard it is labelled.

Can you see this?

Yes, (laughing) loud and clear!

What is it exactly that is thinking? Describe to me in detail what is thinking. I don’t want an intellectual response…but look with AE and tell me what it is exactly that is thinking.

Nothing and nobody is thinking. Thoughts are arising spontaneously.

How is it [anything] known....?

Thoughts arise about labels and about knowing, even despite firm intentions to cease labeling. (But then who/what is it that is believing--or previously believed--those thoughts? Certainly not me [not anymore]... perhaps there never has been a me to believe or not believe anything. There were only thoughts about believing.)

Where is the “I” that can “interrupt thoughts and prolong gaps” located?

There is no "I" to be found. There are only thoughts, thinking and sensations (vision, hearing, taste, smell, touch, or thoughts that label sensations.)

Thoughts arise about seeing that there is no "I" that can start or interrupt anything. Thoughts seem to arise spontaneously in response to perception. (i.e., "Your" communication to "me" involves "my" perception, in response to which thoughts arise about "the intention to meditate and focus on gaps, and respond to questions. Then bodily sensations arise with more thoughts about someone meditating, focusing on gaps.")

Now, thoughts are arising about agreement with the premise, "there is no 'I' that thinks, that labels, or that does anything at all." Thoughts about all of those things arise. Who can know why? There is no who to know or not to know.

The thoughts that are arising in this moment are, "I see it, but I'm not yet there perceiving it, even though I know there is no one to see or perceive..." But there still seems to remain a subjective me observing objects.

Love, gratitude, and delight,
Danute

[forgetmenot]

Hello Danute!

It is such a pleasure to read your posts! Your delight is catching!! :)

How is it known that you are “cutting them off by shifting into DE”? Even in absolute silence everything is being labelled. Listen to the ringing in the ears and notice that as soon as that is heard it is labelled.
Can you see this?

Yes, I see how there is thinking, labeling, interpreting, and "looking for the gap." Perhaps there have been no gaps at all?

Perhaps not! :) Did you notice that when you ‘found’ the gap, that there was some thought that said something like “this is the gap”, “or this is the gap of silence”, or “it’s peaceful in this gap”, or “I wonder how long this gap will last”!?? (haha funny stuff this ‘thinking’, isn’t it!!)

How is it known that you are “cutting them off by shifting into DE”? Even in absolute silence everything is being labelled. Listen to the ringing in the ears and notice that as soon as that is heard it is labelled.
Can you see this?

Yes, (laughing) loud and clear!

Wonderful! (smiling at your delight!)

What is it exactly that is thinking? Describe to me in detail what is thinking. I don’t want an intellectual response…but look with AE and tell me what it is exactly that is thinking.

Nothing and nobody is thinking. Thoughts are arising spontaneously.

Some nice looking going on here! :)

Thoughts arise about labels and about knowing, even despite firm intentions to cease labeling. (But then who/what is it that is believing--or previously believed--those thoughts? Certainly not me [not anymore]... perhaps there never has been a me to believe or not believe anything. There were only thoughts about believing.)

YES! There are only thoughts about believing! And thoughts know nothing!

Where is the “I” that can “interrupt thoughts and prolong gaps” located?

There is no "I" to be found. There are only thoughts, thinking and sensations (vision, hearing, taste, smell, touch, or thoughts that label sensations.)

Yes!

Thoughts arise about seeing that there is no "I" that can start or interrupt anything. Thoughts seem to arise spontaneously in response to perception. (i.e., "Your" communication to "me" involves "my" perception, in response to which thoughts arise about "the intention to meditate and focus on gaps, and respond to questions. Then bodily sensations arise with more thoughts about someone meditating, focusing on gaps.")

Could it be another thought/s that says "thoughts seems to arise spontaneously in response to perception"?
And can it be a thought that says " bodily sensations arise with more thoughts about someone meditating, focusing on gaps."

Can it just be thoughts that SEEM to point to thoughts about thoughts....but can thoughts know about anything let alone point to anything?

Now, thoughts are arising about agreement with the premise, "there is no 'I' that thinks, that labels, or that does anything at all." Thoughts about all of those things arise. Who can know why? There is no who to know or not to know.

I am so delighted….”there is no who to know or not to know”! YES!!

The thoughts that are arising in this moment are, "I see it, but I'm not yet there perceiving it, even though I know there is no one to see or perceive..." But there still seems to remain a subjective me observing objects.

And is not that thought “but there still seems to remain a subjective me observing objects” just another thought appearing?

Okay, here is another exercise. Some of the questions you have already answered but I thought I would still include them just to cement what you have already seen.

Sit for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear and notice what the thought actually is - words, images, bits of music - whatever appears.

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
Where are they coming from?
Where are they going?
Can you predict your next thought?
Can you push away any thought?
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle?
It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?
Can anything choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?
Can anything pick and choose any kind of thought?
Is it possible to control any thoughts?

Please look carefully when doing this exercise and answer all questions individually.

Love and delightfully delighted :)

Kay

[Danute]

Whooot!! Kay :) :) :)

"Thoughts about flying now, happy, happy..." this is truly a fun puzzle, much more fun than any type of murder mystery!

I have been awaking early in the morning (spontaneously, after about 4 hours of sleep) just to read your replies, and then go back to bed, savoring them, pondering, and drifting off again easily after taking in the day's lesson, to further digest.

Some of the questions you have already answered but I thought I would still include them just to cement what you have already seen.

Yes, cementing is a very good thought! ;)

Sit for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear and notice what the thought actually is - words, images, bits of music - whatever appears.

I can think of anything I'd rather do!

I will report soon, probably just after you've gone to bed... this upside down time zone difference is also a random type of element that thoughts arise to say, "silly fun."

The questions you present are already pointing me in the direction I was curious about: "Then how is it that I have the distinct impression of controlling some aspects of the direction my thoughts are taking and of the way my life is presently going?"

These questions are tantalizing!

If you know the Enneagram, you might recognize that I am a type Seven. The essence of a type Seven is enthusiasm and optimism, with an ineluctable desire for freedom. I can't help myself from thinking enthusiastically, optimistically, and forever hunting down freedom in whichever form thought has it arise!

Thank you, thank you, thank you for being my guide!

With love and delight that spilleth over,
Danute

[Danute]

Hello Kay,

Apologies for the previous digression and for the unfulfilled promise to respond by a certain time. I will refrain from both henceforth. It seems there is more than mere "thought" that is uncontrollable!

Here we go:

"Let [thoughts] appear as they appear and notice what the thought actually is...

Labeling, there was so much labeling; nearly constant labeling. Even if I focused on "breath in, breath out..." it was still labeling!

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

No. My intention was to follow instructions to "let thoughts appear." But thoughts of all kinds arose nonetheless, about thinking, not thinking, controlling thinking, gaps, sensations, interfering with thoughts, creating interference to suppress thoughts.

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

No. Impossible. Not if I was following the assignment to "let thoughts appear." Even if I had been given the task of thinking about the color blue, I would still not have been able to control what thoughts appeared at any exact moment instead.

Where are they coming from?

Not from any place at all. Not from logic, not from intention... perhaps from "past experience" but that is pure speculation, not AE. It is another thought about where thoughts might come from. No AE about where thoughts might come from.

The thoughts
Where are they going?

They are going nowhere, as if evaporating.

Can you predict your next thought?

Not at all!

Can you push away any thought?

There might be a thought about "watching a thought dissipate," but it's not actually possible to "push away, stop, eliminate, or control in any way."

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

Thoughts of selecting might arise, but there is no controlling whether the thoughts could be restricted to the selected range.

Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle?

I don't see the middle of any thought, any more than I can determine the middle of a stream or an ocean of thoughts.
Thoughts can arise about "stopping to think in the middle" but actually there is no middle.

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organized sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

There is no way to determine whether I have not been experiencing "being Kay, or being a tree" a moment previously, or whether the current thought is "I have always been Danute and can only remember having ever been Danute."

Can anything choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?

Thoughts about choosing and having chosen may arise, but who knows if the previous thought was about something opposite?"

Can anything pick and choose any kind of thought?

Nope. Who can know what has been picked if thoughts constantly arise and are not controllable?

Is it possible to control any thoughts?

Nope. Thoughts constantly arise and are not controllable at all.

So, what remains unanswered for me is, "How does it seem that there are options and choices in life?" Are there truly none- as the work we've been doing seems to imply?

Perplexed, a bit tired, but still completely avid,
I await for more instruction and thank you once again for the great privilege.

Love,
Danute

[Danute]

Correction:


There is no way to determine whether I have not been experiencing "being Kay, or being a tree" a moment previously, if or when the current thought is "I have always been Danute and can only remember having ever been Danute."

[forgetmenot]

Hi Danute,

Apologies for the previous digression and for the unfulfilled promise to respond by a certain time. I will refrain from both henceforth. It seems there is more than mere "thought" that is uncontrollable!

There is no need to apologise at all. If you want to write inbetween and express yourself, that is absolutely fine by me.

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

No. My intention was to follow instructions to "let thoughts appear." But thoughts of all kinds arose nonetheless, about thinking, not thinking, controlling thinking, gaps, sensations, interfering with thoughts, creating interference to suppress thoughts.

As you noticed, setting “intentions” is just another thought as well! And you did as the exercise said and as you did you watched as thoughts “of all kinds arose”!

Where are they coming from?

Not from any place at all. Not from logic, not from intention... perhaps from "past experience" but that is pure speculation, not AE. It is another thought about where thoughts might come from. No AE about where thoughts might come from.

Exactly…”it is another thought about where thought might come from”! There is no such thing as ‘time’ or ‘memory’ or ‘past experience’ and we will look at the later.

The thoughts
Where are they going?

They are going nowhere, as if evaporating.

Are they evaporating? Where would they evaporate to? It just seems like there are many different thoughts that come and go, but as you have seen it is just one constant stream of thoughts. Could it be a thought that says they come and go?

What is it exactly that these thoughts are ‘coming and going’ to?

Can you push away any thought?

There might be a thought about "watching a thought dissipate," but it's not actually possible to "push away, stop, eliminate, or control in any way."

What exactly is it that is “watching a thought dissipate”? That would mean there is two. A watcher and a watched…there is never two.

Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle?

I don't see the middle of any thought, any more than I can determine the middle of a stream or an ocean of thoughts. Thoughts can arise about "stopping to think in the middle" but actually there is no middle.

Yes, exactly. Where does a thought end and another thought begin?

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organized sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

There is no way to determine whether I have not been experiencing "being Kay, or being a tree" a moment previously, if or when the current thought is "I have always been Danute and can only remember having ever been Danute."

I don’t understand your response here. What has this got to do with whether thoughts come in an organized sequence?

It seems that thoughts are ordered and are in sequence. Where is the proof that thoughts do this?

Can anything choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?

Thoughts about choosing and having chosen may arise, but who knows if the previous thought was about something opposite?"

Your response to this question isn’t clear either. Could you please give me a clear answer.

So, what remains unanswered for me is, "How does it seem that there are options and choices in life?" Are there truly none- as the work we've been doing seems to imply?

What is it exactly that “options and choices in life” arise to?
Where is this “someone’ that “options and choices in life” is located?

Perplexed, a bit tired, but still completely avid,

What is it exactly that is perplexed?
What is the AE of “perplexed”?
What is it exactly that is "still completely avid"?

Okay, so that you are clearer on “options and choices”, here are a couple of more exercise.

1) Describe to yourself, in detail, the process by which you create a thought, or make a choice. You have been doing it all your life apparently - so you must know exactly how you do it. So how do you do it? How do you create a thought? How do you think?

2) Think of a 2-digit number. Why did you choose that number? Why not the previous number, or the next one? Do you know? If not, why don’t you know? If you are the thinker of thoughts then you must know how you create them. Repeat the experiment as necessary.

3) Try the same experiment in other ways. Think of cities in Europe or football teams or whatever. Why did you choose those particular ones and not the other available options? How exactly did you go about making these choices? If you are the one making the choices, why don’t you know why you have made that particular choice or how you are making choices at all?

Please answer all the questions highlighted in blue individually.

Love, Kay

[Danute]

Hi Kay!

Wonderful to know that it's okay to be a bit chatty on occasion! Thank you.

re: They are going nowhere, as if evaporating.

Are they evaporating?

No, there are only thoughts about "thoughts evaporating."

Where would they evaporate to?

Thoughts don't evaporate, let alone evaporate to some place. They wouldn't evaporate to any place at all.

It just seems like there are many different thoughts that come and go, but as you have seen it is just one constant stream of thoughts. Could it be a thought that says they come and go?

Yes, it is only a thought about " thoughts coming and going."

What is it exactly that these thoughts are ‘coming and going’ to?

They are not coming or going to or from anywhere. They are either being thought or not being thought (by nobody.)

What exactly is it that is “watching a thought dissipate”?

There is nothing and no one watching a thought dissipate. There are only thoughts about "watching a thought dissipate."

It seems that thoughts are ordered and are in sequence. Where is the proof that thoughts do this?

There is only a thought about "what came before or what comes after this." There is no proof possible that anything happens in sequence, (and therefore there is no way to prove that anything happens in time or that time exists) There are only thoughts about sequences (and thoughts about time) -for instance, "thought about aging with thought about sequence in time + sensations"

Can anything choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?

No, nothing can choose which thoughts will come next, painful or not painful ones, negative or not negative ones.

To explain the answer that confused you earlier, I was trying to say that no one can know if the next thought might be "I am Kay and have always been Kay" and the very next one after, "I have no memory of ever having been Kay, I have always been and will always be Danute." Nothing can be known about any sequence of thoughts, such as the one I just suggested. Nothing can be known directly (AE) about the existence of identities, or as two identities being separate from one another.

What is it exactly that “options and choices in life” arise to?

There is no one and nothing to whom options and choices in life can arise. Options and choices don't arise. Thoughts about "options and choices in life" arise.

Where is this “someone’ that “options and choices in life” is located?

Nowhere.

There is no location, but there is AE of physical sensation + thoughts about "different options and outcomes." And those are not located anywhere.

What is it exactly that is perplexed?

Nothing and nobody is perplexed. There are thoughts about being perplexed + sensations of physical tension + more thoughts about how the two are tied together causally, plus perhaps also thoughts about "who or what is perplexed."

What is the AE of “perplexed”?

physical tension + thoughts about "being perplexed"

What is it exactly that is "still completely avid"?

Nothing and nobody is still completely avid. There are only physical sensations and thoughts about "how the sensations are causally connected to 'still completely avid'"

1) Describe to yourself, in detail, the process by which you create a thought, or make a choice. You have been doing it all your life apparently - so you must know exactly how you do it. So how do you do it? How do you create a thought? How do you think?

There are no thoughts that are created. I don't create thoughts. There is no me to create thoughts. Thoughts arise from nowhere.

However... :) there is a thought that "I have thoughts of an intention, or a will, or a desire for a certain object. It's impossible to say how or why that thought appears, or where it comes from, or how it is created, but it seems that thoughts arise that are related to that intention. Yet, since there are no sequences, I can see how this "method" of "thoughts following intentions" is just another thought.

My final answer is speculative, because nothing definitive can be said about sequences or causality, but are there thoughts about intentions that arise from nowhere automatically with more thought related to those intentions? (Thoughts have no "middle" so they might be long and complex?)

2) Think of a 2-digit number. Why did you choose that number? Why not the previous number, or the next one? Do you know? If not, why don’t you know? If you are the thinker of thoughts then you must know how you create them. Repeat the experiment as necessary.

The thought 22 arose spontaneously. A though arises about how that particular number might have been self-selected because of the ease and immediacy of repeating the same number from the AE of the image, "2-digit number"

In any case, nobody chose that number. It arose with the the thought "think of a 2-digit number" + the image 2.

3) Try the same experiment in other ways. Think of cities in Europe or football teams or whatever. Why did you choose those particular ones and not the other available options? How exactly did you go about making these choices? If you are the one making the choices, why don’t you know why you have made that particular choice or how you are making choices at all?

Rome and London arose as thought from nowhere that could be discerned and for no reason that could be known. When I thought about how the choice had been made, a thought immediately appeared about, "Why not Paris? -since I have been there much more than to Rome or to London?!" I thought I was looking for an answer and instead a thought about another question arose. There is no controlling thoughts.

The arising of thoughts appear to be related to to desire, will, intention, but that is not the same at all as anyone controlling or creating thoughts. Furthermore, since nothing can be known about sequence, then how can it be known if related thoughts appear "in response" (in sequence, after) thoughts about intention, desire, will, etc...?

The thought now arises, "Just like a flower whose roots move towards moisture and leaves towards the sun, thoughts and actions happen by no decision from the flower or from anybody!"

Thoughts also arise about "not feeling like I am getting any closer to my desire." But I won't believe that thought. It's just a thought that doesn't need to be controlled or responded to. Thoughts know nothing! ;)

The ringing in my ears is louder than usual. I normally don't notice it, but it has caught my attention enough to feel bothersome (for the first time in my life that I can remember.) I have the sensation of being tired from straining to think and to control (or direct) many thoughts. Thoughts, I know, but also AE of louder ringing than usual. I probably am too avid at this point, wanting to "figure this out" very desperately!

I think I will meditate by focusing on the ringing, not to stop it, but to hear it more clearly... (I will report how that goes.)

Good morning to you, Kay! <3
Good night to me :)

[Danute]

Kay, it occurs to me now that perhaps I wasn't checking in sufficiently with AE when answering the questions, but instead mostly with thoughts about AE...

I will check my AE in response to those same questions and see if anything is different.

When I am checking AE, I am never tired...

I often find myself learning something through doing it "wrong" and then seeing how that doesn't work well ;)

I am learning to chuckle at myself!

[Danute]

STOP!

(Don't waste your time!)

Here goes again:

Are they evaporating?

No. Thoughts are being replaced by other thoughts.

Where would they evaporate to?

OMG! Now I "see" the answers because I am checking inside!!!
What an IMPORTANT lesson to integrate, THANK YOU!

So much easier! (I hope you don't waste time on responding to the former reply

STOP!

(Don't waste your time!)

That is me trying to "catch your attention" so that you not continue responding to my first post of the day!

[Danute]

Now I better understand your questions also! They follow naturally from what I've verified through AE!

Where would they [thoughts] evaporate to?

They don't evaporate. They become replaced by new thoughts!

What is it exactly that these thoughts are ‘coming and going’ to?

They are not going anywhere, they are being replaced by new thoughts!

(What a WORLD OF DIFFERENCE!!! No wonder it is so hard for me to live, I am trying to live from my head instead of from AE!!!! What an amazing lesson for me! This, in itself is incredibly valuable, if I got nothing more than this!)

What exactly is it that is “watching a thought dissipate”?

I can see how thoughts are not dissipating, they are just being replaced with other thoughts or other AE's!

It seems that thoughts are ordered and are in sequence....

Perhaps your thoughts seem ordered and in sequence Kay, not mine! ;))))))

Joking aside (see, the glee is back!!) Whenever I thinking of making my thoughts ordered and in sequence, the effort is exhausting. When I stop trying, thoughts of sequence arise in a useful way! Yikes!!! What an insight!

Where is the proof that thoughts do this? [arise in sequence]

I don't know about proof. There seems to be plenty evidence however that thoughts arise in no sequence. Yet thoughts of particular sequences do on occasion also arise from nowhere. Brilliant! I see it now.

Can anything choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?

No, but it seems to me that thoughts about "choosing to ignore negative thoughts", "seems" to reduce the number and length of painful or negative AEs?

Either way, "Nothing can choose which thoughts will come next, painful or not painful ones, negative or not negative ones."

What is it exactly that “options and choices in life” arise to?
Where is this “someone’ that “options and choices in life” is located?

I'm not sure I understand these two questions.

I tried but went off in a tiresome thinking direction and felt exhausted again...

What is it exactly that is perplexed?

Nothing and nobody is perplexed. Thoughts about perplexed arise.

What is the AE of “perplexed”?

Thoughts about perplexed + actual body sensations

What is it exactly that is "still completely avid"?

Nothing. There are only thoughts about "still completely avid." And this thought changes from moment to moment! ;)

I leave the 3 ending questions as they stand (in the previous response from me) because they were answered from AE.

Thank you Kay, this was such an interesting "mistake," even though the thought about mistake is just a thought and not AE or true, while the sensation of stimulation (with thoughts about "interesting") is definitely coming from AE.

Good night again, and thank you for the long work that you put into responding.


Much love,
Your affectionate torturer-
Danute

[forgetmenot]

Hello Danute!

What exactly is it that is “watching a thought dissipate”?

There is nothing and no one watching a thought dissipate. There are only thoughts about "watching a thought dissipate."

Yes, just like there are only thoughts ABOUT a “watcher” and “watching”! Where is the “watcher watching” located?

I can see how thoughts are not dissipating, they are just being replaced with other thoughts or other AE's!

YES, that is some really wonderful looking! They are not evaporating or coming or going or dissipating. They are just experience as a whole. (Experience AS thought, sound, colour, sensation, taste, and smell). There is nothing controlling them or choosing them, thoughts just appear.

Have ‘you’ noticed when ‘thinking’ about something and in the ‘next moment’ you see you have gone down a whole new tangent of thoughts and you don’t even recall how you went from one line of thoughts to another? Or you’re thinking about something and you hear a siren and before you know it, what thought labels as ‘past thoughts’ are appearing and you can’t even remember what you were thinking about earlier?

It seems that thoughts are ordered and are in sequence. Where is the proof that thoughts do this?

There is only a thought about "what came before or what comes after this." There is no proof possible that anything happens in sequence, (and therefore there is no way to prove that anything happens in time or that time exists) There are only thoughts about sequences (and thoughts about time) -for instance, "thought about aging with thought about sequence in time + sensations"

Yes :)

To explain the answer that confused you earlier, I was trying to say that no one can know if the next thought might be "I am Kay and have always been Kay" and the very next one after, "I have no memory of ever having been Kay, I have always been and will always be Danute." Nothing can be known about any sequence of thoughts, such as the one I just suggested. Nothing can be known directly (AE) about the existence of identities, or as two identities being separate from one another.

Yes…very nice :)

There is no location, but there is AE of physical sensation + thoughts about "different options and outcomes." And those are not located anywhere.

As you said…. they are thoughts ABOUT “different options and outcomes”, and any thoughts ABOUT anything are just that….stories! :) Nice :)

What is it exactly that is perplexed?

Nothing and nobody is perplexed. There are thoughts about being perplexed + sensations of physical tension + more thoughts about how the two are tied together causally, plus perhaps also thoughts about "who or what is perplexed."

How is it known that thoughts cause sensations (physical tension)?

Is a thought aware of a sensation?
Is a sensation aware of a thought?
Is a thought aware of a thought?
Is a thought aware of itself?

What is the AE of “perplexed”?

physical tension + thoughts about "being perplexed"

There is no proof of “perplexed” as there is nothing/nobody that can be perplexed!

The sensation labelled “physical tension” is the AE of sensation and NOT the AE of physical tension.
The thought labelled “perplexed” is the AE of thought and NOT the AE of perplexed.

So what exactly is it that can be “perplexed” or have “physical tension” = nothing

Is this clear?

However... :) there is a thought that "I have thoughts of an intention, or a will, or a desire for a certain object. It's impossible to say how or why that thought appears, or where it comes from, or how it is created, but it seems that thoughts arise that are related to that intention. Yet, since there are no sequences, I can see how this "method" of "thoughts following intentions" is just another thought.

So what is it that says that an action has followed an “intention, will or a desire”? Could that just be another thought?

What says that thoughts are in sequence, and from these ordered thoughts actions come about, or solutions are found, or more ordered thoughts arise?

There are thoughts ABOUT ordered thoughts; and that these ‘ordered’ thoughts mean something and are logical and are a blueprint for some type of action….but could that just be more thought that says this?

What exactly is it that is taking these actions or needing solutions?
What exactly is it that has problems?

My final answer is speculative, because nothing definitive can be said about sequences or causality, but are there thoughts about intentions that arise from nowhere automatically with more thought related to those intentions? (Thoughts have no "middle" so they might be long and complex?)

Thoughts are just thoughts, how can thoughts be complex and how would thoughts know what thoughts are complex and which are not? That’s the same as asking how long is a piece of string! :)

The arising of thoughts appear to be related to to desire, will, intention, but that is not the same at all as anyone controlling or creating thoughts. Furthermore, since nothing can be known about sequence, then how can it be known if related thoughts appear "in response" (in sequence, after) thoughts about intention, desire, will, etc...?

So how is the thought “the sky is blue and full of white fluffy clouds” related to “desire, will and intention”?

“The arising of thoughts appear to be related to desire, will and intention”. Yes, they appear or SEEM to be…but look again. What says this? Can you find desire, will and intention in AE or is it just a thought that says “the arising of thoughts appear to be related to desire, will and intention”?

The thought now arises, "Just like a flower whose roots move towards moisture and leaves towards the sun, thoughts and actions happen by no decision from the flower or from anybody!"

A great analogy! :)

Thoughts also arise about "not feeling like I am getting any closer to my desire." But I won't believe that thought. It's just a thought that doesn't need to be controlled or responded to. Thoughts know nothing! ;)

What is it exactly that controls or responds to thoughts?
And what is the “I” that can believe or not believe in something or nothing?
What is the AE of belief?
Where is this “I” located?

I probably am too avid at this point, wanting to "figure this out" very desperately!

LOL, I find this funny as you have powered ahead and are doing a tremendous job at looking and getting clear on thoughts. I think you are marvelous! Thoughts need to be seen through with absolute clarity before we move on. As you have seen with thoughts that are appearing ABOUT “figuring this out” and “not getting it” that thoughts are believed as having some meaning and power and belong to someone or something that needs/desires/wants….. when in AE they are the experience as thought, and are in and of themselves absolutely powerless and meaningless!

I am learning to chuckle at myself!

That’s great! I chuckle at myself often! :)

What is it exactly that “options and choices in life” arise to?
Where is this “someone’ that “options and choices in life” is located?

I'm not sure I understand these two questions.

What I was asking is what is it exactly that has “options and choices in life”?
If there is a ‘someone’ that has “options and choices in life”, where is this ‘someone’ located?

Much love, Kay