NoLabel requests a guide

[Canfora]

Does that mean you can't find a separate NoLabel thinking thoughts? No little person inside the head doing the thinking? Check it out again. Can you see there is no separate thinker of thoughts?

If you can't see a entity doing the thinking, deciding what will be the next thought, what decides to raise an arm then?
Does a thought think?
Does a thought have power of decision?
Do you experience a thought raising an arm? Or could the arm raise because it does, without a reason for the movement to happen?
Yes, it may seem that the thought "I'm going to raise my arm" is followed by the raising of the arm.
But you also saw that sometimes the arm didn't raise.
Could it be that the only reason you believe the arm is raising because of a thought is because other thought is "raising the arm was my decision, I did it"?
Can you find this I that is supposed to be raising the arm if you look to what is happening?
What is this I?
Where is this I?

Let me know what you find or if it is still difficult to do this kind of exercises :)

[NoLabel]

If you can't see a entity doing the thinking, deciding what will be the next thought, what decides to raise an arm then?

No, when I just observe which thought will be next, I can see that thoughts just pop up on their own. I just have the idea that there are the thoughts that come on their own (automatically) and the thoughts that I can do manually.
So, I have read your questions very carefully. I am again a little bit frustrated. I know what you expect to hear but I will continue to say what I am thinking honestly, so that you know where I am exactly.

Does a thought think?

No. A thought can’t think. A thought it is just a reaction of the brain to the surrounding environment. I see an animal and the mind recognizes “this is a dog”. My stomach feels empty and a thought comes “I am hungry”. I listen to a song and the thought arises “I feel melancholic”… etc.

Does a thought have power of decision?

A thought by its own doesn’t have power of decision. A thought is just a thought that appears by itself. But I feel that “I” have the power of decision. Sorry, maybe we go back to my “food decision” or your “arm exercise” but that makes me really confused and I haven’t figure it out yet.
“My stomach feels empty and a thought comes “I am hungry”. (I can decide to eat or not)
“I listen to a song and the thought arises “I feel melancholic”” (I can decide to stay in this mood or play another song and feel another feeling. I think that I can have control. Maybe I am wrong, but even if I can understand it intellectually, I cannot say I can believe it for sure because this is not my experience yet and I don’t want to lie to you.

Do you experience a thought raising an arm? Or could the arm raise because it does, without a reason for the movement to happen?

How an arm can raise by its own? If this could happen, we would see people walking around with arms and legs raising on their own like crazy. I don’t know, I find it funny and confusing to think that this is true. When I am doing an action that it is needed to use my arms of course I don’t control the movement of them step by step. The same thing with walking. I don’t have to order my feet to move. I just walk. But who decides to walk or not? I still think there are some voluntary and some involuntary thoughts. Some of them are like reflections to the environment and some of them are decisions to these reflections.

And now you will say that also these decisions are just a thought. Example: My stomach feels empty (this is a sense of the body). The mind reacts to this sense and a thought rises “I am hungry”. Let’s say I am on a diet now, I will think “I don’t need to eat now, I can wait one more hour”. (Here I say that this is my decision to react or not to the thought “I am hungry”). And I think you want to show me that “the decision” that “I can wait to eat in an hour” that it is just another thought that comes by its own…)
So, in this way… the thought “I can wait to eat in an hour” it is just another reaction to the previous thought… ???
Hehehehe,,,, I don’t know.. this is very funny… In this way it is like we are using artificial intelligence… (A thought like this came to me while I was camping for two months in nature, about two years ago. One day I was watching the sunset and this came to my mind as a scenario. A person that seeks for enlightment and when he reaches there he sees that we use artificial intelligence. I laughed a lot with this scenario.

Ok, now you will say very correctly that I am doing imaginary scenarios again, and you will be very correct. I just find it very helpful to express my thoughts like this.

I will try to think of another example that it came up right now. A thought came “I need to make a break for a cigarette”. Ok this is not my decision. It is just a reaction of the mind to avoid this search, because it became tired. (Or it just needs some nicotine) Another thought came “maybe I should continue and not smoke for now”. Then another thought came “Come on, if I don’t smoke, this is totally my decision”. But.. this is just another thought reacting… trying to explain the belief that “I have control”, that I can decide to smoke or not. Is Mind just reacting to everything, even to the thoughts that it just made, and we comprehend this as an “I”?
So…. You told me to raise my arm. The mind reacts to this “task” and wants to try the exercise… It takes the thought “I have to raise my arm and see if it will raise or not”… And waits for something to happen. The mind itself that took this task by its own as a reaction to your saying. And it waits for an arm to raise or not. But nothing happens because it makes the thought that “I” have to give the order to raise my arm. Pfff very confusing.
I will have a break for now.

Could it be that the only reason you believe the arm is raising because of a thought, is because other thought is "raising the arm was my decision, I did it"?

I don’t get this at all. Maybe you want to type it differently because I don’t make any sense of this. Sorry.

“Can you find this I that is supposed to be raising the arm if you look to what is happening?
What is this I?
Where is this I?”

I am too frustrated for now. I would like to leave these questions for the next time until I figure out all the above. Thanks again.

[Canfora]

Hi NoLabel,

Thank you for your post.
I don't expect you to answer in any particular way.
What I can offer here are pointers to help you explore what you are and what you aren't - with a heavy focus in the illusion of the separate self.
Your frustration and resistance are a sign that you are trying to understand my questions and think the right answer. It is easier than that. You just have to look to find the answers to these questions.

So, I think we need to go back a little and clarify what we are looking for - what are your ideas about what NoLabel is:
If you had to show me NoLabel, what would you show me?
What is NoLabel?
Where is NoLabel?

Hug,
Sandra

[NoLabel]

Thanks again Sandra for your patience.

If you had to show me NoLabel, what would you show me?
What is NoLabel?

Hmmm… I have no idea. I would tell you that NoLabel is a human being that is living in a 34 year old male body on this planet. His mind likes humor a lot and it likes to play on words and try to understand the nature to everything and every being. It is curious.

Where is NoLabel?

NoLabel is only in the mind of this body. He is a character. He started developing the day he was born and he is still developing. He is all the things he has experienced since today.

Hug.

[Canfora]

Hi!

If NoLabel IS a separate self, this separate self must be here/now.
And if this NoLabel IS here/now you must be able to find it, have a good look at it and describe it (something that you can do with a cup, for example). Do you agree?

I would tell you that NoLabel is a human being that is living in a 34 year old male body on this planet. His mind likes humor a lot and it likes to play on words and try to understand the nature to everything and every being. It is curious.

In the sentence above, you are describing NoLabel the same way you could describe Batman, but you know Batman is a fictional character.
There must be a difference, a reason, something, that makes you think NoLabel IS a separate entity, while you think Batman is a fictional character!
So we are looking for this something that makes you believe you are a separate self.
And checking if this something IS the separate self - or just a thought about one!

We are not relying on ideas in this investigation - we are looking for the thing that IS NoLabel.
I hope my explanation helps - try again and let me know what you do find that IS NoLabel!

[NoLabel]

Hi Sandra!

A quick question before I think in depth to answer to you questions.
What do you mean excactly by "Seperate self?

[Canfora]

What do you mean excactly by "Seperate self?

It's what you think you are.
It's what the word "me" points to.

[NoLabel]

Hey Sandra!
Sorry I haven't replied yet but I am in the middle of a project and I will be very busy until Tuesday.

I hope to find some time until then and ansawer to your questions.

Thanks a lot!
NoLabel

[Canfora]

That's ok NoLabel, thank you for letting me know.

[NoLabel]

Hi Sandra!
I am back!

If NoLabel IS a separate self, this separate self must be here/now.

Here, now I can see my hands typing, the screen of the computer, I can hear the kids playing at school next to me, I can hear the sound of my hands typing. I can see me drinking coffee automatically. I don’t have to think to raise the cup of coffee. It just happens. I cannot find NoLabel as a separate entity that decides to raise the cup. The eyes just followed a bug flying in the room. Another zip of coffee. It all happens too fast to think that “I” have to think all of these by myself.

There must be a difference, a reason, something, that makes you think NoLabel IS a separate entity, while youthink Batman is a fictional character!

This happens because of the identification with the mind. We think that we are the thoughts. The mind analyses and identifies everything. So, NoLabel is a character that has been created by the mind through the years.

[Canfora]

Welcome back! Those are very clear answers.

Let me poke what you're saying with some more questions :)

What changed from before, that has lead you to those clear answers?

Are you a person inside the body?

Are you a person in control of thoughts?

Are you awareness, nothingness or other kind of "ness"?

How do you see a decision happening?

Looking forward to your answers!

[NoLabel]

Hi Sandra!

What changed from before, that has lead you to those clear answers?

Hmm I guess these soooo busy days on this project I have told you about, made me realize some stuff. I was running a production for a video advertisement. It was like hell. Everything was going wrong and I had to find new solutions every single minute. When I was back at home late at night I was looking again our discussion. Of course I had no energy to answer to you but I realized that all these decisions and ideas were just popping out of nowhere. The next day working on the project again I could confirm it. I had no time to think at all. So, I guess the mind was just processing all the information and the options and a decision was made for the best scenario for that specific moment. Maybe that was something.

Another thing was that today, while I was reading our conversation again in order to answer to your last questions, I’ve noticed that every time I was making an imaginary scenario you were not answering straight to me. So, in the process to give you an answer today there was the observation that I can answer to your questions, but after every answer a big BUT was raising in the head… looking for further analysis and confirmation. So, I decided to just skip all these “but scenarios” and just answer to the point. I still have some questions like this but I will follow your process for now. Maybe in the future the answers will come on their own.

Are you a person inside the body?

No, “I” am not a person inside the body. “I” am a “person” inside the head. The person is a creation of the mind.

Are you a person in control of thoughts?

Nope! There is life living in this body using all its functions including the mind. Mind is just a tool. When we think we are the mind and the thoughts, we identify ourselves with the character (that is a creation of the mind). So, let’s take this project I was working on as an example. Some days ago in every right decision that was made, I would give credits to myself such as “I am very good at this job”, “I am very smart” etc. Now I can see that it’s just happens that this particular mind of this body is very appropriate for this job. And probably that’s why it ended doing this. So, no, I am not in control of thoughts. Thoughts just come as the mind processes its environment.

Are you awareness, nothingness or other kind of "ness"?

Awareness it’s just a function of the brain. Nothingness it’s just another label we put on ourselves in order to try to express the idea that ego doesn’t exist. But if we put on ourselves the idea that we are emptiness, then we are just using another label. We create another character. The self with the nothingness.
The only kind of ness “I am “ is this when I am drinking café, so I am NessCafee.. :) (I told you this mind likes to play with words)

How do you see a decision happening?

A decision is made by the mind while is processing all the facts of its environment and moving to the right direction for that specific moment.

Ps: There is an understanding to all these above but I am not sure If I am totally there. I think its only intellectual. I mean that it needs some effort to remind “myself” all these…. Hehehe I don’t know, this sentence is very funny. Ok… I will not analyze it more for now.

Ps2: All day, after I had answered to you there was a sad feeling. I don’t know. Like nothing has meaning any more. I was thinking that I have to share it with you, but now I feel better.

Ps3: I still have loooots of questions.. :)

Looking forward for your answers to my answers. :)

[Canfora]

Hi again NoLabel!

You keep talking about mind. And I'm seeing this image of a brain, inside every human body, like a little control center that has the power to control things and think thoughts. Is this what mind is and does in your opinion?

Can you give me some examples of things that depend of a controlling mind to happen?

Sorry for not answering to your post in full, usually I point to something that has caught my attention and try to keep things simple. And we have time to address your questions in further posts. You're doing great by the way :)

Hug,
Sandra

[NoLabel]

Hey Sandra!
I am not saying that the mind is the control center. It is just a tool that reacts to the environment. It doesn’t control thoughts. It expresses thoughts according to the reactions and the circumstances, automatically, with no reason. Like a cat’s brain reacts to the movement of a mouse and starts to chase it. Just the human brain has more and different functions.

Hug, NoLabel

[Canfora]

Hi NoLabel, good morning.

Let's go back a little. You said:

“I” am a “person” inside the head. The person is a creation of the mind.

If there isn't a you inside the body, why do you think there is something inside the head?
Does it feel there is a you inside the head, looking to an outside world?
If it does, is this feeling pointing to something that is a you inside the head?

If there is a belief that you are a mind or inside the brain, have a look again.
Can you pin point the size of this self that lives between the ears and behind the eyes?
Where is the edge of it, the boundary?

Hug,
Sandra