nirguna

[JonathanR]

Hi Nirguna,

Is seeing thought as well? Something is not clear to me here. I see "I" as the one that see thoughts as separate. Is that one seer or witness 'A thought' as well. If yes, than the thought 'I' can not be prevented. A thought that is seen as separate can be prevented. For example, as I stated before, sometimes there is seeing without thoughts.

You ask: 'Is seeing thought as well'?

This is where language (English) can be confusing becasue 'seeing' can mean, simply, 'experiencing visual sensations'. But it can also mean 'noticing or registering a thought or a sensation'. (Hence it is possible to say that 'I see what you mean').

I was asking about seeing in relation to immediate experience, the sensation of seeing of the words on the screen. In this sense of 'seeing' there is only sensation.

But we have also been talking about the way that thoughts appear or turn up even whilst sense experience is going on.

Does this make sense?

A thought that is seen as separate can be prevented. For example, as I stated before, sometimes there is seeing without thoughts.

I am intrigued. Separate from what? Don't thoughts just appear when they do? How would a thought be prevented? I can understand how it might be experienced that there are no thoughts for some time, but who or what would do the preventing of thoughts?



Best regards,

Jon

[nirguna]

Hi Jon.

You ask: 'Is seeing thought as well'?

This is where language (English) can be confusing because 'seeing' can mean, simply, 'experiencing visual sensations'. But it can also mean 'noticing or registering a thought or a sensation'. (Hence it is possible to say that 'I see what you mean').

I was asking about seeing in relation to immediate experience, the sensation of seeing of the words on the screen. In this sense of 'seeing' there is only sensation.

But we have also been talking about the way that thoughts appear or turn up even whilst sense experience is going on.

Does this make sense?

Yes it is getting somewhat clearer. I understand seeing as sensation. And thoughts appear at the same time.

N: A thought that is seen as separate can be prevented. For example, as I stated before, sometimes there is seeing without thoughts.

I am intrigued.

Me too

Separate from what?

How would a thought be prevented?

Separate from seeing.

Don't thoughts just appear when they do?

Thoughts do appear when they do.

How would a thought be prevented?

Recognizing thinking process. When it happens it is possible to make intentional pause of thinking. There are momentary experience of just seeing and no thoughts. Momentary I say. In those moments I try to locate Who is doing this without answer. Answer requires switching thinking on. There is comfort in inability to make location of 'who is doing all this?' So my experience is that thoughts can come and go. Most of the time I am lost in stream of thoughts but I do feel separated from them.

I can understand how it might be experienced that there are no thoughts for some time, but who or what would do the preventing of thoughts?

I would do intentional momentary pause in thinking, but who or what am I?
I don't know.

Maybe I am deluded. I am trying to give you my understanding as clearly as possible. I am not claiming any attainment whatsoever. And most of all I value your experience and wisdom, so I am willing to try and see things differently. I am willing to explore possibilities here and keen to follow your guidance.

Thank you again for your time.

N




Best regards,

Jon[/quote]

[nirguna]

Apologies for the bad edit. I just noticed preview button. I will get in habit of using it.

Thank you.

Nirguna

[JonathanR]

Hi Nirguna,

There are momentary experience of just seeing and no thoughts. Momentary I say. In those moments I try to locate Who is doing this without answer

Let me get clear about this. There is no answer. Could this be because there is no entity, no 'me' that could answer? With no thoughts about a 'self' it seems impossible to find one that 'does seeing? Is this what is experienced?

Answer requires switching thinking on.

That is interesting. Is it 'you' that 'switches on' thinking? Or is it more that thoughts themselves switch on and that there is the assumption that 'I switch thinking on'?

There is comfort in inability to make location of 'who is doing all this?' So my experience is that thoughts can come and go.

This comfort.Can you say anything about it? Is it like relaxation, for example?

Most of the time I am lost in stream of thoughts but I do feel separated from them.

I understand about being lost in the stream of thoughts but can you say how you feel separated from them? Do you mean that in spite of being 'lost in thoughts' there is still something that is untouched or undisturbed?

Warm regards,

Jon

[nirguna]

Hi Jon.

N:There are momentary experience of just seeing and no thoughts. Momentary I say. In those moments I try to locate Who is doing this without answer.

J:Let me get clear about this. There is no answer.

That is good. No answer is OK. Is it still OK to search and ask Who am I? Or do you think it is ridiculous to ask?

Could this be because there is no entity, no 'me' that could answer?

I guess that is how it works.

With no thoughts about a 'self' it seems impossible to find one that 'does seeing? Is this what is experienced?

Yes. With no thoughts about anything, seeing still happens. Who sees? We can not find.

N:Answer requires switching thinking on.

J:That is interesting. Is it 'you' that 'switches on' thinking? Or is it more that thoughts themselves switch on and that there is the assumption that 'I switch thinking on'?

Any answer requires mind, intellect, thinking process. Is it 'me' that 'switches on' thinking? Yes and no. Most of the times thoughts just sneak up and I am lost in them without being able to recall how and when. But if I am concentrating, there is a pause in thinking, at that point as if I am in control of whether thinking should give me an answer or I can stay and enjoy the silence.

N:There is comfort in inability to make location of 'who is doing all this?' So my experience is that thoughts can come and go.

J:This comfort.Can you say anything about it? Is it like relaxation, for example?

I can not say much more than it is peaceful, restful, silence. Yes it is very relaxing.

N:Most of the time I am lost in stream of thoughts but I do feel separated from them.

J:I understand about being lost in the stream of thoughts but can you say how you feel separated from them?

I feel thoughts coming and going. I intuitively know that I can not be thoughts. So maybe I am assuming that I am separated from thought. Maybe I just took for granted that there is me... and thoughts.

Do you mean that in spite of being 'lost in thoughts' there is still something that is untouched or undisturbed?

I wish. I have heard sages saying this. I don't think I have reached this level

Thank you, Jon.

nIrguna

[JonathanR]

Hi Nirguna,

No answer is OK. Is it still OK to search and ask Who am I? Or do you think it is ridiculous to ask?

It isn't ridiculous but using the word 'who' is already loaded with assumption. A 'who' must be some kind of entity or person. Can an entity of any sort be found in experience? A different question might be 'Is it possible to find an 'I' or 'me' or 'self' anywhere?'

I feel thoughts coming and going. I intuitively know that I can not be thoughts. So maybe I am assuming that I am separated from thought. Maybe I just took for granted that there is me... and thoughts.

Perhaps it is worth looking at this? Thoughts may be regarded as 'separate', but separate from what? They appear but what do they appear 'to'?

Could it be that the appearance of thoughts and the noticing of them happen as one movement?

Regards,

Jon

[nirguna]

Hi Jon

N:No answer is OK. Is it still OK to search and ask Who am I? Or do you think it is ridiculous to ask?

J:It isn't ridiculous but using the word 'who' is already loaded with assumption. A 'who' must be some kind of entity or person. Can an entity of any sort be found in experience?

I understand what you mean. And we agreed on the point that there/here is no such entity really.

A different question might be 'Is it possible to find an 'I' or 'me' or 'self' anywhere?'

Interesting. I will try this.

N:I feel thoughts coming and going. I intuitively know that I can not be thoughts. So maybe I am assuming that I am separated from thought. Maybe I just took for granted that there is me... and thoughts.

J:Perhaps it is worth looking at this? Thoughts may be regarded as 'separate', but separate from what? They appear but what do they appear 'to'?

There is no answer to this either.

Could it be that the appearance of thoughts and the noticing of them happen as one movement?

Yes, I don't see why not.

I appreciate you helping me see things from different angle. It is helpful. Kind of broadening the view.
One thing I don't understand is where this desire comes from. Desire to know the self. This pull. This devotion. Longing to come home. Otherwise there would not be this conversation. I don't know what 'I' is but I am still seeking.

Thank you.

N

[JonathanR]

Hi Nirguna,

A different question might be 'Is it possible to find an 'I' or 'me' or 'self' anywhere?'


Interesting. I will try this.

Did you try this? What was found?

So maybe I am assuming that I am separated from thought. Maybe I just took for granted that there is me... and thoughts.

I said:

'Perhaps it is worth looking at this? Thoughts may be regarded as 'separate', but separate from what? They appear but what do they appear 'to'?'

But also, isn't 'separated' a thought ABOUT something being 'separate' from something else?

Doesn't this thought assume some sort of condition of 'separatedness'? It assumes a state of affairs in which there seems to be a 'me' separate from 'my thoughts', doesn't it?


Warm regards,

Jon

[nirguna]

Hi Jon.

J:A different question might be 'Is it possible to find an 'I' or 'me' or 'self' anywhere?'

N:Interesting. I will try this.

J:Did you try this? What was found?

:) nothing, it is same.... no answer to this.

So maybe I am assuming that I am separated from thought. Maybe I just took for granted that there is me... and thoughts.

I said:

'Perhaps it is worth looking at this? Thoughts may be regarded as 'separate', but separate from what? They appear but what do they appear 'to'?'

Here I was ready to accept the possibility that thouhgts and me are the one thing since I can not fixate it to whom or what they happen.....but than you asked:

But also, isn't 'separated' a thought ABOUT something being 'separate' from something else?

Sorry I think I lost you here. Maybe clarification would help.

Doesn't this thought assume some sort of condition of 'separatedness'?

Yes, I am beginning to question this assumption following your guidance.

It assumes a state of affairs in which there seems to be a 'me' separate from 'my thoughts', doesn't it?

Yes, that is how we started.


Thank you again,

N

[JonathanR]

Hi Nirguna,

J:A different question might be 'Is it possible to find an 'I' or 'me' or 'self' anywhere?'

N:Interesting. I will try this.

J:Did you try this? What was found?


:) nothing, it is same.... no answer to this.

:) No answer because no 'self' is found, or becasue what may or may not be found is impossible to label?

(J) But also, isn't 'separated' a thought ABOUT something being 'separate' from something else?


Sorry I think I lost you here. Maybe clarification would help.

Sure. I was struck by your use of the word 'separated' when you described how you felt that 'you' may be separated from thoughts. I questioned whether this was the case by suggesting that perhaps thoughts...and the noticing of them...appear together? (The only way of knowing if this may be true or not is for you to look at experience, by the way..I am not trying to give you a new belief). But 'separated' is also an idea that comes from thought, isn't it? Without the thought of one thing being 'separate' from another perhaps 'separation' would cease to be experienced (or cease to seem to be experienced)?

Thought is very subtle and slippery at creating ideas that can become the entire outlook. Does this make sense/clarify?

Best wishes,

Jon

[nirguna]

Hi Jon.

(N) :) nothing, it is same.... no answer to this.

(J) :) No answer because no 'self' is found, or because what may or may not be found is impossible to label?

Impossible to label is good description of what is experienced as a result of questioning.

(J) But also, isn't 'separated' a thought ABOUT something being 'separate' from something else?

(N) Sorry I think I lost you here. Maybe clarification would help.

Thank you for clarifying.

Sure. I was struck by your use of the word 'separated' when you described how you felt that 'you' may be separated from thoughts.

Yes and your questioning, separated from what, brought me to... impossible to label description of separated 'me'. I find it interesting and new to view me and thoughts in this way, as one thing...

I questioned whether this was the case by suggesting that perhaps thoughts...and the noticing of them...appear together? (The only way of knowing if this may be true or not is for you to look at experience, by the way..I am not trying to give you a new belief).

Looking at my experience I don't see conflict here and I hope that I am not making a new belief for myself...

But 'separated' is also an idea that comes from thought, isn't it?

Yes, I can see that. I had assumption that if I manage to stop thoughts, 'separated' me will be free.
I am questioning this assumption now. If there is no difference between me and thoughts, than running thoughts would be just running thoughts, and no thoughts would be just no thoughts....

That brings new perspective altogether.

Without the thought of one thing being 'separate' from another perhaps 'separation' would cease to be experienced (or cease to seem to be experienced)?

This perspective diminishes all assumed control over process of the thoughts. Interesting.

Thought is very subtle and slippery at creating ideas that can become the entire outlook. Does this make sense/clarify?

Yes, thoughts are very tricky, and I can see how they can endlessly create new ideas and entire new outlooks. I hope that is not what we are doing here :) That would be waste of time for both. Hopefully we are striping unnecessary layers instead of creating new ones.

Thank you.

N

[JonathanR]

Hi Nirguna,

I find it interesting and new to view me and thoughts in this way, as one thing...

Yes, it is interesting to look at the possibility that these are not two.

When you say 'me', here, are you meaning 'that which notices thought' or, what is often termed 'awareness'?

Looking at my experience I don't see conflict here and I hope that I am not making a new belief for myself...

Not if you are exploring these possibilities through investigating by looking directly at experience.

Yes, I can see that. I had assumption that if I manage to stop thoughts, 'separated' me will be free.
I am questioning this assumption now. If there is no difference between me and thoughts, than running thoughts would be just running thoughts, and no thoughts would be just no thoughts....

That brings new perspective altogether.

Good.

Without the thought of one thing being 'separate' from another perhaps 'separation' would cease to be experienced (or cease to seem to be experienced)?


This perspective diminishes all assumed control over process of the thoughts. Interesting.

There are two themes running through your reply today. One is about 'separation' (actually,the lack of it) and the other is about the notion of 'control'.

If you can find the oportunity it would be a great idea to go for a walk in nature, to a park or by the sea or wherever there is grass, trees, sky. Take a walk and notice how everything is alive and moving in its way; clouds, wind, sun, rain, people, trees, grass, birds, animals, insects. The whole lot moving together. Notice your body breathing and being part of this movement.

Now, look to see if it is possible to find a boundary or edge between 'you' and everything else, where 'you' ends and 'experience' begins. Is there such a divider?


Best wishes,

Jon

[nirguna]

Hi Jon.

When you say 'me', here, are you meaning 'that which notices thought' or, what is often termed 'awareness'?

Awareness is good description. I would go with that answer.

There are two themes running through your reply today. One is about 'separation' (actually,the lack of it) and the other is about the notion of 'control'.

I am giving up both, assumed 'separation' and notion of 'control'. They don't stand certain in your proposed investigation of the direct experience. They lack ....not sure what word to use.... substance, reality...

If you can find the opportunity it would be a great idea to go for a walk in nature, to a park or by the sea or wherever there is grass, trees, sky. Take a walk and notice how everything is alive and moving in its way; clouds, wind, sun, rain, people, trees, grass, birds, animals, insects. The whole lot moving together. Notice your body breathing and being part of this movement.

Even imagining doing it I feel there is one movement only.

Now, look to see if it is possible to find a boundary or edge between 'you' and everything else, where 'you' ends and 'experience' begins. Is there such a divider?

I will try this as soon as I can. It may take few days to organize this. Is there anything I can do in a meantime?

Thank you Jon,

N

[JonathanR]

Hi Nirguna,

ill try this as soon as I can. It may take few days to organize this. Is there anything I can do in a meantime?

Great. Yes, we can look at 'control'.

Conventionally, it is assumed that 'I decide' (take decisions) and 'I choose' between alternatives. This can be tested and investigated.

Choose a number between one and ten right now.
Did a number appear? Did 'you' do the choosing or did the number get chosen automatically somehow?

Place both hands on a table. You will raise one hand in the air and leave the other on the table. See if it is possible to notice the exact point where the 'choice' is made?

Awareness is good description. I would go with that answer.

. Do you feel that you are awareness?

Best wishes,

Jon

[nirguna]

Hi Jon.

Great. Yes, we can look at 'control'.

Conventionally, it is assumed that 'I decide' (take decisions) and 'I choose' between alternatives. This can be tested and investigated.

Choose a number between one and ten right now.
Did a number appear? Did 'you' do the choosing or did the number get chosen automatically somehow?

Ok, without thinking: 5
Number appeared as thought or answer to the question.
Did I do the choosing or did the number get chosen automatically? Well. Both. Number got chosen automatically somehow. At the same time I picked it from 1 to 10. Both happened.

If you have not give me options between the two, I would say, I chosen the number, but second option, did the number get chosen automatically somehow, made me thinking and I see that it is also valid answer.

Place both hands on a table. You will raise one hand in the air and leave the other on the table. See if it is possible to notice the exact point where the 'choice' is made?

Exact point? Not possible. I just followed instruction and ended up with one hand in the air and other on the table. I don't think I remember the 'exact point' of choice. It just happened. At what point. I don't know.

(N) Awareness is good description. I would go with that answer.
(J) Do you feel that you are awareness?

I am aware. To say that I am awareness it takes little bit of work or focus.

I will give you an example: Today I was commuting on train, thinking of exercise you proposed, to go to nature and see if I can find boundary of me and my surrounding. So, on train, I noticed that, there is me and others. Little bit of investigation and experiment, I started to notice that, that is not only that. At the same time, the same situation can be experienced completely differently. I got reminded of me and thought being separated and not being able to find exactly what is this me to what thoughts happen. I carried same exercise to the point of asking, is there really me, as opposed to others. And then, the train was just moving, I was just aware of my breath, boundary of me and others were somehow dissolving. I was just that, what you may call awareness. It was not automatic. As if I was initiating this process. So it is kind of swinging between me controlling or initiating situation and having moment of just being awareness.

Thanks,

N