Scratching the surface

[Petrus]

Hi Tupapa,

We hold beliefs

If there is no I, who is there to hold?

some of these we are aware of and other operate subconsciously.

Mere thought. The contents of thoughts are not reality!

These beliefs filter what is perceived

Science, second hand information...

For instance, if a racist subconscious belief that black people are criminals...

So you believe that beliefs are real things?

So in a way, wouldn´t you agree that a belief that blacks are criminals would taint your perception of the black man walking down the street towards you at 2 a.m.?

There is no "my" perception. There is perception and the thought: "Its mine."

In my experience of meditation, it is easier to see thoughts arising

Thoughts arise and vanish. I cannot see how that could be easy or difficult.

The two experiences seem to differ. DUring the latter, I vaguely recall tasting my breakfast, or my coffee, I was incredibly distracted and focused on the conversation with my sister.

So you do recall the conversation very well.
You want to be superman an see/feel/experience everything simultaneously?

DUring my meditation practice, it seems like the traffic slows down

It seems indeed

and there is real awareness of what is happening in the present moment,

So you distinguish between real awarenes and not so real awareness?

almost like becoming an observer of what is arising. During my recent breakfast experience, it seemed like I was somehow more engaged with the thoughts.... I hope this is more or less clear.

It is absolutely clear what you mean.
The only thing is, that you make labels for experiences, as if one is better than the other.
Where I dont see any difference: Listening to sister, or listening to your own thoughts in meditation: what is the difference?

Again, really appreciate you spending your time on this!

This weekend I will be away. I will do my best to answer when there is spare time.

Warm regards, Petrus

[tupapa]

If there is no I, who is there to hold?

So you believe that beliefs are real things?

Ok, beliefs exist just as thoughts, transitory appearances that are subject to change, this is experienced.

There is no "my" perception. There is perception and the thought: "Its mine."

If we don´t use the words "My perception and your perception", how de we refer to the disparity in perception amongst individuals?

So you distinguish between real awarenes and not so real awareness?

It feels like the traffic slows down, and awareness expands.

It is absolutely clear what you mean.
The only thing is, that you make labels for experiences, as if one is better than the other.
Where I dont see any difference: Listening to sister, or listening to your own thoughts in meditation: what is the difference?

In essence there is none, as I said before, just a feeling of an expanding awareness that covers everything that is arising (in meditation), as opposed to a fixation with a particular experience (conversation, worry, planning, strategising).

It seems like when there is a strong engagement in mental activity, problem solving, future planning etc.. Awareness becomes limited to this activity.

Best wishes,

Tupapa.

[Petrus]

Hi Tupapa,

If we don´t use the words "My perception and your perception", how de we refer to the disparity in perception amongst individuals?

We dont. In fact there no others. We perceive something and call it (after many years of learning): another human.
But in fact (when we are babies and more real and honest) we only perceive experiences and interpret a lot!
There are no individuals, so there is no disparity.

It feels like the traffic slows down, and awareness expands.

And you label that as "better" I suppose?

In essence there is none, as I said before,

Right

just a feeling of an expanding awareness that covers everything that is arising (in meditation), as opposed to a fixation with a particular experience (conversation, worry, planning, strategising).

So no difference at all. Shit is happening in both cases...

It seems like when there is a strong engagement in mental activity, problem solving, future planning etc.. Awareness becomes limited to this activity.

Right: It seems... But is it true?

Warmest regards, Petrus

[Petrus]

Hi Tupapa,

Like some entertainment?
Enlightenment for Lazy People, Paul Smit:
https://youtu.be/_UYcYrLp6oI?list=PLvFe ... RTtz-83UxF

Regards, Peter

[tupapa]

Thanks peter!

I will watch the video and reflect upon it and over your comments.

Your assertion that there are no individuals is shocking to say the least, I need to be with it for some time.

Hope you enjoy your weekend away,

Best wishes,

Tupapa.

[Petrus]

Hi Tupapa,

Your assertion that there are no individuals is shocking to say the least

Shocking haha. That is good to hear. We're making progress...
Without an I, how could there be a You? That would mean the You has got an I for himself.
Thats not democratic, haha.

Warmest regards, Petrus

[tupapa]

Code: Select all

We dont. In fact there [i]are [/i] no others. We perceive something and call it (after many years of learning): another human. But in fact (when we are babies and more real and honest) we only perceive experiences and interpret a lot! There are no individuals, so there is no disparity.

Hi Petrus,

Would you mind elaborating this idea?

Regards

[Petrus]

Hi Tupapa,

Would you mind elaborating this idea?

Every thought is a thought.
The contents has no connection with something real.
When somthing happens maybe a thought claims it, before or after: Im going to do this, I did that.
But it is not real.

Same for the thought of the others.
Do you think a baby thinks there are others?

So every belief and every concept you come with, I will say it is not pointing to something real.
Aliveness is. Life is. Thats it. Anything else you dont know.
Right?

I am going to sleep now. (there is tiredness).
And again: this weekend, there is not much time to come online.

Regards, Petrus

[tupapa]

Hi Petrus hope you are enjoying your weekend away.

Every thought is a thought.
The contents has no connection with something real.
When somthing happens maybe a thought claims it, before or after: Im going to do this, I did that.
But it is not real.

OK, I agree here, just a habitual way of framing whatever is happening with the self as the illusive reference point.

Same for the thought of the others.
Do you think a baby thinks there are others?

I´m not sure, I guess they don´t really think at all? Thinkins is a skill they gradually develop? I don´t really know much about babies.

So every belief and every concept you come with, I will say it is not pointing to something real.
Aliveness is. Life is. Thats it. Anything else you dont know.
Right?

I am going to sleep now. (there is tiredness).
And again: this weekend, there is not much time to come online.

Regards, Petrus

I disagree, a belief can point to something real. I believe water boils at 100 deg. celsious, on planet earth. And every time I boil it reality confirms my belief.

I like surfing, in the morning I wake up and assess the weather conditions. I hold a belief that if the tied is rising and the wind blows northeast, the waves will be good, I not only hold the belief,it has been confirmed by experience, there is a very high chance that waves will be awesome. I drive to the beach and enjoy a great day of surfing.

My friend on the other hand is a novice surfer, he wakes up one random morning and assess weather conditions; the sun is out and theres no wind. He holds a belief that nothing can be more pleasurable than surfing in the sun and with no wind. He drives for 1 hour to reach the beach and the sea is flat as a lake, he reluctantly leaves the board in the car and sunbathes for a few hours before heading back home.

Beliefs often point to something very real and they are paramount in how we live and experience our life. I couldn´t disagree more with you on this one.



You also make some bold claims negating the existence of the individual?

If I understood correctly, you seem to assert that there are no individuals, so I guess in your view humans are just zombies? Entertaining an illusion of autonomy and subjective reality?

I would say an individual is an individual inasmuch as each person experiences life in a different way from others, depending on his beliefs, experience, conditioning etc..

For instance all these refugees arriving in Europe over the past few week; Each one of them is going through an amount of suffering that you and me most likely can´t even imagine. They are bringing their children to what they hope will be a better place, and they are arriving with all their fears, their desires, their longings, they will look at the Berlin Wall one day and have a completely different experience from what a local will have, because of their conditioning, their past story, their experience.

Their experience of the world is completely different from any others, and this is what makes them individuals, we don´t all experience life in the same manner, and I can´t see how that will ever be the case.

[Petrus]

Hi Tupapa,

I´m not sure, I guess babies don´t really think at all? Thinkins is a skill they gradually develop? I don´t really know much about babies.

So when you dont think there is no I or others?
Only when you think there seems to be an I?
And when you stop thinking, I is nowhere all of a sudden?

I disagree, a belief can point to something real.

It is not my aim to make this a discussion. I try to ask questions to make you see yourself:
A belief is a thought only. Is that true?
There is no connection whatsoever between the contents of thoughts with an experience.
For example: If you think of a juicy orange, can you really eat it?

I believe water boils at 100 deg. celsious, on planet earth. And every time I boil it reality confirms my belief.

So you want science in stead of truth? Then you are at wrong counter here.
I am not interested in what you know, but in what you just see right now.
You see water boiling and next you see a thermometer.
Then there is a thought that connects both thoughts
Finally there is a thought saying this is truth, reality...
As far as I can see, there were 4 thoughts in a row only. (And thats a thought too)
There is nothing to know at all.
Every moment is fresh and new.

Warmest regards, Petrus

[tupapa]

So when you dont think there is no I or others?
Only when you think there seems to be an I?
And when you stop thinking, I is nowhere all of a sudden?

I don´t think there is ever an I. I do think that there is an awareness, and the contents of this awareness differ amongst individuals, including each person’s illusory I.

It is not my aim to make this a discussion. I try to ask questions to make you see yourself:
A belief is a thought only. Is that true?
There is no connection whatsoever between the contents of thoughts with an experience.
For example: If you think of a juicy orange, can you really eat it?

I agree, I was trying to point out that belifs do hold value as many of them really are anchored on a physical reality. But I guess that´s not what you are talking about here? There was a miscommunication?

So you want science in stead of truth? Then you are at wrong counter here.
I am not interested in what you know, but in what you just see right now.
You see water boiling and next you see a thermometer.
Then there is a thought that connects both thoughts
Finally there is a thought saying this is truth, reality...
As far as I can see, there were 4 thoughts in a row only. (And thats a thought too)
There is nothing to know at all.
Every moment is fresh and new.

I can see this Petrus, nothing to objetc, the thermometer was just another example of a well anchored belief on the physical world, as opposed to a badly anchored one (If a virgin is thrown into a volcano, the corn yield will increase this year :D )

But from your answers I understand these examples add no value to our exchange? I guess they are completely of track.
Best wishes,

Tupapa

[Petrus]

Hi Tupapa,

I don´t think there is ever an I. I do think that there is an awareness,

Both are thoughts. The contents of them is it real?
You keep taking serious what you think.
I want you to look and see if there is something real in the contents of thoughts.

and the contents of this awareness differ amongst individuals, including each person’s illusory I.

So you dont call it "I" but "individual."
I say: I or individuals dont exist. It are concepts only, so thoughts only.
You make the concept of separate identities and you believe in that concept.
But all are thoughts only!

I agree, I was trying to point out that belifs do hold value as many of them really are anchored on a physical reality.

A belief is a thought only. So how could it hold value?
And how a thought can make connection to a physical reality?
Think of a pink elephant. Does this elephant really exist other then as thought?
Now think of a belief. Does the belief really exist?

Regards, Petrus

[tupapa]

Both are thoughts. The contents of them is it real?
You keep taking serious what you think.
I want you to look and see if there is something real in the contents of thoughts.

I agree, they are just thoughts, but there is also an awareness, otherwise there would be nothing right?

So you dont call it "I" but "individual."
I say: I or individuals dont exist. It are concepts only, so thoughts only.
You make the concept of separate identities and you believe in that concept.
But all are thoughts only!

But there is an awareness which is filled with different thoughts for each individual? If not there would be no communication, no relationships right?

A belief is a thought only. So how could it hold value?
And how a thought can make connection to a physical reality?
Think of a pink elephant. Does this elephant really exist other then as thought?
Now think of a belief. Does the belief really exist?

Because beliefs originate from a physical reality, where if not could they originate from? Beliefs exist as beliefs; that is an idea which is subject to change, a transitory appearance in consciousness. Some are anchored in reality (Wind and clouds= surf) and some are not (if a virgin is thrown into a volcano, the corn crop yield will increase this year) or (elephants are pink)


I don´t seem to see what is flawed about this line of thinking?

[Petrus]

Hi Tupapa,

but there is also an awareness

No there is not.
You agree there is no I, but you make an awareness in stead.
"but there is also an awareness," is a thought only. If you look for awareness, you can find it?

But there is an awareness which is filled with different thoughts for each individual?

No, no, no!
In your belief everybody owns a bowl (awareness, head?) in which "your" thoughts appear.
But that is what you learned. Now you have to unlearn it by looking closely!!
If a thought or sensation appears, in the same time is there really someone (I) or something (awareness) observing that?
If you listen to music, is there someone/something listening, or is there music only?
But you are right, after listening a thought states: I was listening, isnt that true?
But while listening there wasnt such thing.

If not there would be no communication, no relationships right?

Is that true? Communication is just happening.

Some are anchored in reality

That is what you think/believe. But in fact you dont know.

I don´t seem to see what is flawed about this line of thinking?

The flaw is, that it is thinking. Thinking never will help you see.
Dont take thinking serious. Thoughts disappear by themselves...
If thinking would make one see, everybody already would see.

So, now step out of your box!
Listen to music, and look if you can find awareness.

Warm regards, Petrus

[tupapa]

No there is not.
You agree there is no I, but you make an awareness in stead.
"but there is also an awareness," is a thought only. If you look for awareness, you can find it?

Awareness just is, and everything rises in awareness. There is a huge difference between merely thinking, and thinking while being aware that one is thinking right?

No, no, no!
In your belief everybody owns a bowl (awareness, head?) in which "your" thoughts appear.

No, awareness is where everything that can be experienced is being experienced. Awareness isn´t owned and there is not such thing as “your thoughts”, there are thoughts appearing in awareness.

But that is what you learned. Now you have to unlearn it by looking closely!!
If a thought or sensation appears, in the same time is there really someone (I) or something (awareness) observing that?

There is nobody observing it, but as something is appearing there is an awareness of whatever is happening.

If you listen to music, is there someone/something listening, or is there music only?
But you are right, after listening a thought states: I was listening, isnt that true?
But while listening there wasnt such thing

.

I agree with this. And all of this is rising in awareness. If there was no awareness there would be nothing being experienced! My mind would be like in a coma!

That is what you think/believe. But in fact you dont know.

I hesitate to get into a discussion about epistemology and belief vs knowledge.... But if that was the case then science would be a futile attempt to understand the world. Isn´t the fact that you and me are communicating over the internet, living in different continents sufficient evidence of the power of science and well anchored beliefs on reality?

The flaw is, that it is thinking. Thinking never will help you see.
Dont take thinking serious. Thoughts disappear by themselves...
If thinking would make one see, everybody already would see.

So, now step out of your box!
Listen to music, and look if you can find awareness.

I just listened to some music, there was music, thoughts, sensations, etc… all of these rising in awareness. They have to rise somewhere in order to be experienced! How else could there be experience/awareness of something?

Best Wishes,

tupapa.