Help to disappear

[Anna77]

Hi Michael :)

Great that you figured out the quote function, it breaks up the blocks of text and makes it easier to show what it is you want to focus attention on. You response is pretty funny :) I'll tell you why now...

do you think we could pass on to examining thinking? I suppose the key is there.

This is funny because that's precisely what thought would love to do - examine thinking...awesome! then thoughts can essentially have a great big mental masturbation session that goes for eternity so you don't get to see there is no separate self and never has been :) Please don't take offense to my use of language, it's hard to translate in text, I'm smiling as I write this because it's just a great giggle and it's fun :)

By looking at the body, sensations and sensory functions of the body - by looking for a separate self in these places, you're essentially being directed to focus somewhere other than in thoughts....thought loves to think, thought loves to examine thinking, thought loves to examine everything but direct experience...because when you look at something with direct experience, thought becomes unstuck and you start to see through thought and through the illusion of a separate self :)

I'm most likely going to come back to these questions on sensations and looking for a self that's separate from them...because if you really do want to experience that there is no separation between the seer, seen and seeing, a pretty handy place to experience that is by looking with direct experience to see if the seer, seen and seeing are one and the same ;)

For now, we'll look at some of your responses...feel free to ask me anything you like as we go along and ask for any clarity on anything - no rules and we're just following where ever this takes us and it's just a great fun game, nothing more, nothing less, we get to play it however we like.

I suggest you respond to only one lot of questions at a time from each of the quote blocks below, in any order, and it doesn't have to be done all at once. You can respond to one block quote per day if you like but don't skip over them or try to brush them off because what you're looking to find (“There is no self whatsoever, in any shape or form. There never has been, and there never will be.”) is in the process of looking at these and responding to them from direct experience.

Really look and feel for the separate self in each of the pointers in the questions, then write your response to it. If you skim over and respond half arsed to one or two of them, you'll find the struggle will continue...but if you just sit quietly with the questions and really look, really look for the separate self, relax into it, see if you can see or feel it anywhere in any of the places I'm asking you to look for it, you'll find the tension will drop, the struggle will lessen and you'll be able to answer these questions easily.

Thoughts claim of course that I am feeling them (sensations), but are put on hold for now.

So, we could take a look at this...thoughts claim you are feeling sensations, but are put on hold for now....who or what sensing? Who or what is putting thoughts on hold? How are thoughts being put on hold? Please explain who or what is sensing and who or what is putting thoughts on hold and how that is happening. Is there someone or something doing all of this - thinking and sensing, stopping thoughts, or is it just happening?

Tasting is a kind of bodily feeling, and is attributed by thought to an invisible mouth located somewhere underneath the eyes. Smelling is likewise referred to the body organ supposedly between the eyes. I am struggling a bit on these several fronts :)

It's good you're struggling with this, it makes the game more interesting, it would be a boring game if it was game over in a moment.

Let's look at this from another angle, is the self your body? Is that where the self resides? Look at your body from direct experience...can you find a "you" in the body? Is there a separate self that is "you" in your body that is doing all the bodily functions... tasting, smelling etc?

I can see that the self arises from the conviction/ thought or commonsense opinion that the body is what is seeing, hearing, thinking etc.

You can see that the self arises from the thought or commonsense opinion that the body is what is doing the thinking, seeing, hearing etc. So when you say this, are you telling me that thought says the body is thinking, thought says the body is tasting, thought says the body is hearing etc?

If this is so, Are the experiences happening independently of thought or is thought somehow controlling or responsible for the experiences like tasting, smelling, feeling etc?

Just relax with it, have fun, don't stress, this is a game and it's fun :) xn

[millefiori]

Hi Neroli!
Just to let you know I am onto your questions but I feel out of mana right now. I will post something tomorrow. Thx a lot!

[Anna77]

All ok Michael :)

I'm about to begin a travel stint that will go for a day and arrive at my final destination tomorrow night...so I'll be offline for at least 24 hours...more like 36 though :)

chat soon,
cheers,
neroli

[millefiori]

Hi Neroli!

examine thinking...awesome! then thoughts can essentially have a great big mental masturbation session that goes for eternity so you don't get to see there is no separate self and never has been :)

LOL I like your humor! Although I don’t like feeling like the butt of the joke :) I did have some hesitation writing that line!
So sorry for the delay, I have been pondering and writing a good deal in response to your questions the last days, but I felt I had to revisit the answers. I ended up in a pit of conceptual despair for a while but now I feel back on track. So to cut to the chase, my interest in examining the mechanism of thinking was to find out whether thoughts are experienced by ‘something’. The notion of a pure consciousness here kept up the belief in some kind of transcendental ego for many years. I will skip the philosophical ramblings and just say that I am starting to question those thoughts and see through the belief.

By looking at the body, sensations and sensory functions of the body - by looking for a separate self in these places, you're essentially being directed to focus somewhere other than in thoughts....thought loves to think, thought loves to examine thinking, thought loves to examine everything but direct experience...because when you look at something with direct experience, thought becomes unstuck and you start to see through thought and through the illusion of a separate self :)

Agreed!

we could take a look at this...thoughts claim you are feeling sensations, but are put on hold for now....who or what sensing? Who or what is putting thoughts on hold? How are thoughts being put on hold? Please explain who or what is sensing and who or what is putting thoughts on hold and how that is happening. Is there someone or something doing all of this - thinking and sensing, stopping thoughts, or is it just happening?

Sensations is all there is. Thoughts are put on hold in the sense of not being indulged on. I haven’t investigated much the sense of being the thinker or chooser of thought but it is becoming clear that it is a mind made assumption. The buggers appear of themselves, giving the impression of some whatcher of them until the flow is somewhat interrupted by another thought like “look at DE, this is painful”. When “I” get lost in thoughts it feels like they are pointing to something separate, an observer associated with some sensations in the face and skull. I do see, however, that this happens automatically, and it also does not imply any ‘self’ being stuck or authoring the thoughts.
I am starting to see the irony of this search. Emotions and thoughts are still sticky and act below the radar most of the times, but there is some minuscule but noticeable decrease in emotional pain. I don’t want to say more for now as it is still very flimsy. I think I will just proceed with the next set of questions in the next couple of days, and report on those when ready.
Hope your trip was fun!
Talk soon, best,
Michael

[Anna77]

Hi Michael,

I've been trying to post a response to this from my iPhone - it keeps failing to post...trying again now...

[millefiori]

Hi my dear,
I didn’t want you to feel obliged to respond I am still working on the questions, hopefully not too half arsedly. I am flip-flopping like crazy these last days and going from over optimistic to the opposite.
Please if you feel you have a format to follow I’d gladly do that, I tend to sail away on the Orinoco more than often.

I feel it is good I told you about the ownership of thoughts so that I got it off the chest, though.
Let's look at this from another angle, is the self your body? Is that where the self resides? Look at your body from direct experience...can you find a "you" in the body? Is there a separate self that is "you" in your body that is doing all the bodily functions... tasting, smelling etc?

No it is projected somewhat beyond the body. A knower of thoughts of some sort. I have tried to challenge the notion that an I thought cannot split itself in two like an amoeba and listen to itself, but the impression that it does is still quite strong.

You can see that the self arises from the thought or commonsense opinion that the body is what is doing the thinking, seeing, hearing etc. So when you say this, are you telling me that thought says the body is thinking, thought says the body is tasting, thought says the body is hearing etc?

Correct. That seems pretty hard to shake. Like I can try to ‘convince myself’ that the external world is all a projection of mind but the sense of subjectivity is still pretty darn in place. As I conceive ‘myself’ as being inside the body, then the thoughts are consequentially mine. It seems watertight at the moment.

If this is so, Are the experiences happening independently of thought or is thought somehow controlling or responsible for the experiences like tasting, smelling, feeling etc?

No of course not. I still see, sense, think etc. without thoughts involved.

Just relax with it, have fun, don't stress, this is a game and it's fun :) xn

I’ll see what I can do but thanks for the kind words.
Many thanks, cheers, /M

[Anna77]

Hey Michael - I tried replying about 7 times and my replies wouldn't post!

I am in transit on my way home now...you are doing brilliantly...I was trying to say that in my last msgs!

Just hang in there while I get back to laptop and off this phone!

Keep looking at your life experiences with the focus on direct experience while I get back to online world...it's all there unfolding in that place xn

[Anna77]

Hi Michael,


I am FINALLY back to what is home base for now and at my laptop again so we 're in business :) You're doing great, loving the way things are rolling along. Don't make your life hard by thinking too much or trying to "get" something...looking with direct experience is the only way to see there is no self and never has been. Thinking makes it hard!

Way back on Sept 13th, you wrote..

The buggers (thoughts) appear of themselves, giving the impression of some whatcher of them until the flow is somewhat interrupted by another thought like “look at DE, this is painful”.

So, in this moment, it's clear that you saw thoughts are appearing of themselves and thoughts give an impression of some watcher of the thoughts...and thought says things like "this is painful". You have seen that thought is giving an impression of a self watching, and thought is labelling experience with things like "this is painful".

You go on to say...

When “I” get lost in thoughts it feels like they are pointing to something separate, an observer associated with some sensations...I do see, however, that this happens automatically, and it also does not imply any ‘self’ being stuck or authoring the thoughts.
I am starting to see the irony of this search. Emotions and thoughts are still sticky

So here again, you have seen clearly that thoughts are just happening automatically, there is no self authoring the thoughts.

In your response to this lot of questions, you have looked at the flow of thoughts with direct experience and seen that there is no self in the thoughts and there is no "you' authoring the thoughts, thoughts are just happening.

You also saw clearly that when "you" get lost in thoughts, it feels like thoughts are pointing to something separate...that's really important...can you see that the flow of thoughts stop being so "sticky" and when you look at them with direct experience?

when you look at the flow of thoughts with direct experience...do you see a self there in thought and if there is not a self there - What is? What do you see when you look at the flow of thoughts with direct experience?

In a later post, you mentioned challenging a notion "that an I thought cannot split itself in two like an amoeba and listen to itself" Just a heads up - you will make life very hard for yourself in this process if you are trying to challenge thoughts with thought. That will actually make this process quite difficult....as it is only through looking at thought and at life using direct experience that you will see that there is no self and there never has been. Challenging something mentally will make this really hard for yourself, so by all means, feel free to do that but that's no fun at all :)

I won't go on through all the other responses as it gets overwhelming for you to try to look at a bunch of things at once...we'll just go with this and move on to whatever comes from this thread.

Thanks for being a great sport michael,

cheers,
neroli

[millefiori]

Hi Neroli,
Great to know you are back at base camp!
I am having a writer’s block right now. To be honest I don’t think I have sorted out this thinking thing, but rather slowly relapsed into some convoluted analysis of thought with thought. I think I have just been too tired these last days, but wanted to get in touch anyways. I don’t know what the heck I am after with all this and feel a bit worn out. Needing to relax a bit!

you will make life very hard for yourself in this process if you are trying to challenge thoughts with thought. That will actually make this process quite difficult....as it is only through looking at thought and at life using direct experience that you will see that there is no self and there never has been. Challenging something mentally will make this really hard for yourself, so by all means, feel free to do that but that's no fun at all

That, though, that might save me some 5 years or so of spiritual seeking!
Ok, I’ll check out for now, but be back in the morning with hopefully a fresh outlook.
Many thanks,
M

[Anna77]

Hey Michael :)

In those previous highlighted responses i copy and pasted from you...it was clear you had seen that there was no self in those moments of looking with direct experience...if you are getting tangled up in thoughts and thinking, just come back to looking at everything with direct experience...

Are you clear on what direct experience is and how it works? It's just looking at whatever is happening and seeing what is there....not thinking about what is happening, not labelling experience, just experiencing it and reporting exactly what is experienced.

Not from what you think, but from direct experience, please let me know:

Where do thoughts come from?

Are you in control of them?

Can you stop a thought from coming?

Can you stop it in the middle?

Do you know what the next thought will be?

Is 'I' a different thought from the thought of something else, like a cup?

Can a thought think?

Cheers :)

Neroli

[millefiori]

Hi 
First of all, thank you so much for your patience and excuse my inconsistences. Your heads ups are invaluable.

Where do thoughts come from?

Are you in control of them?

Can you stop a thought from coming?

Can you stop it in the middle?

Do you know what the next thought will be?

Is 'I' a different thought from the thought of something else, like a cup?

Can a thought think?

No idea, they just ‘arrive’
No they do their own thing
No that would be a thought
I have serious issues understanding this question.
Not until it shows up
No, I guess it is emotionally charged though, it arouses some feelings and sensations. But sure, it is not different.
Ok thinking is thoughts. “I am thinking” cannot think. The thought of a witness is also a thought.
My goodness, I feel I am standing in front of a blackboard trying to solve 2+2=….. with my elementary school teacher behind my back  (I don’t mean you). Whops, that was only a thought that there is something that needs to understand, and not looking at DE. This damn tendency to figure out things mentally.
I am sending this for now, again, thank you for support! Cheers!
M

[Anna77]

Hey Michael :)

You're doing great, just keep looking, especially look at thoughts and look at emotions or feelings as they come up...just look at them...intensity is nothing to be afraid of, only felt and looked at to see what happens. The more you look, the clearer everything becomes.

You mentioned,

I have serious issues understanding this question.

the question was, "can you stop it (meaning a thought) in the middle. Can you stop a thought in the middle of it happening? Another way of asking it is, do you have any control over thoughts, not only the content of thought but the way in which they happen?

I feel I am standing in front of a blackboard trying to solve 2+2=….. with my elementary school teacher behind my back  (I don’t mean you). Whops, that was only a thought that there is something that needs to understand, and not looking at DE.

Great work, that's exactly what is going on, just a thought happening, and when you look at it with direct experience, it see what happens to thoughts like this...when you can notice when they happen....look at them with direct experience and see what happens to them.

I'll post your next questions after we get clear on this last one above...
xxn

[millefiori]

Hello Neroli :)

Can you stop a thought in the middle?

That assumes my identity as something with the power to change or affect the stream of thoughts. But because that identity is imagined by that stream it cannot do anything. 
That was a shorty.
Thanks, cheers!

[Anna77]

Hi Michael...

Please don't think I'm nit picking, your response to the last question is "correct" by the "book" standards, it does sound like it's coming from intellect though, like your head/thought is saying the right things...not so much as if it's coming from a really felt/experienced place.

Don't worry about this if it is or is not the case...it doesn't matter either way....there is no right and wrong, and ultimately, there is nothing to "get". Everything will unfold and unravel however it just does.

Can you look at this question and let me know what you see from direct experience?

Does the body experience sensations and thoughts?

Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinaesthetic)?

Cheers :)
neroli

[millefiori]

Hi Neroli, thanks for your kind answer, as always.
No worries, I see what you mean, please be picky I certainly don’t want to delude myself. I did feel that my answer was intellectual but at the same time honest, but as you said I won’t mind that. I have been taking a look at your questions, and I don’t feel I am ready to answer them as of yet. There is still the assumption that the body is what is experiencing. This arises as thought of course, so you were exactly right in asking whether I am sure I’ve seen that I am not in control of the mechanism of thinking.

Does the body experience sensations and thoughts?

Hmmmmmmmmm. I still have a sense of being inside the body looking out. If I deconstruct this I can see it is based on the thought “ I am in here”. It gives the impression of a thinker/seer. I think I can almost feel the falsity of this reference point of I inside the bag of skin, but the notion of the body as the instrument of seeing is still a bit too much to be tackled.

Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinaesthetic)?

Yes, sure. To which thoughts layer up other concepts like the body feels, thinks and sees an external world.
I feel a bit stuck now, but maybe you can find a way to help me tackle this? I am going to keep on questioning: are thoughts mine and whether this central character really exists. Sorry it took so long to answer, I hope we can keep this guiding on, much appreciated!
Best,
Michael