Totally seeing through the belief in a separate self

[jgordon5]

Is there an "I/me" that knows or forgets? What is it that tells you that you are living in duality again?
When you see "you don't exist" how is that known? What tells you that "you don't exist"?

Well something sees that there is no me, something is aware of that. It seems as if the imaginary I drops away and there is just seeing. But in conventional terms, it doesn't last, the imaginary I leaps back in again - so thoughts arise and appear real. That's how it seems to be 'known'.Existence/knowing must still be there but it seems obscured. It is not happening now though, it is only in thought.

How is that experienced? What falls in and out? Is it any more than a thought saying "Ah, I have been gone and now I am back. Now I see again!"

Maybe what you are talking about is being aware or not being aware of the observer/witness of thought?
What is this observer? Is it a separate entity? Or is it again just a thought talking about previous thought(s)?

Yes, it is only thought and yes, I am talking about being aware and not being aware. The observer is not really a separate entity but it seems a useful ally, something that bridges an imaginary gap between seeing and not seeing. If I thought that I was in any way in control of doing anything or things happening, I would ask for more intensity, more energy to keep looking, to keep digging, to keep asking. It does seem now that there is more intensity, a real pull to carry on with this but obviously not under my control.


I wake in the middle of the night and think or ponder the imaginary existence of an I, and often it seems really clear that there is no I, it falls away and there is such a sweetness. Then later I wake up and it seems the I piles in immediately. But that is thought too? Just keep questioning it, seeing through it?

What do you want to be free from? From a conceptual thought? Who wants to be free? Can a thought be free from more thought?

Put like that it seems very silly! Yes, I want to be free from thought but you put it so clearly, Can a thought be free from more thought.....No.

I know you're away but I just thought I'd reply to these questions while I can. I'll carry on working through the questions you put in earlier posts .

All best wishes

Jill

[Alexw]

Hi Jill,

I am back. How are you going?

Alex

[jgordon5]

Hi Alex

Welcome back! I didn't get any notification of your post so it was only this morning when I tried searching that I found your post.

I've been reading Gateless Gatecrashers and working through No-self and having Eureka moments of no self but I still can't say that the penny has entirely dropped....

So near yet so far! I've been trying to see what I'm holding on to. I'll keep at it.

Thanks.

Jill

[Alexw]

Hi Jill,

working through No-self and having Eureka moments of no self but I still can't say that the penny has entirely dropped....

What exactly would have to happen for the penny to drop? What will change once you have seen through the illusion? Will this current experience - seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and touching - change at all? Will your sense perceptions change? What will change?

I've been trying to see what I'm holding on to.

Try to find out what it is that is doing the holding on to.
Is there anyone doing it? Or is "holding on" just a belief that is being repeatedly confirmed by thought?

Alex

[jgordon5]

What exactly would have to happen for the penny to drop? What will change once you have seen through the illusion? Will this current experience - seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and touching - change at all? Will your sense perceptions change? What will change?

There is an expectation! That 'I' would no longer be identifying any of these things as happening to me (as in body/mind imaginary self me).

Or is "holding on" just a belief that is being repeatedly confirmed by thought?

Mmmm holding on is just a belief confirmed by thought as you say. Thanks I'll work with that.

What worked for you when you 'saw'? Did it happen just like that, all at once, or were there things that took time... was it gradual. I hope you don't mind me asking.

[Alexw]

There is an expectation! That 'I' would no longer be identifying any of these things as happening to me

What is the "I" that identifies? Can you find it? Is it a separate entity?
Sit down and simply look - with "looking" I mean look, hear, taste, smell, touch... Is there an "I" that is seeing and hearing, doing all this experiencing? Or is there only this experience?
Is there an "I" thinking about the experience? Or are there just thoughts about it arising randomly?

Now... what identifies with things that happen? Is this more than a thought saying that stuff happens to "you"?
Yes, sure, things happen... but do they require an "I" that they are happening to?

What worked for you when you 'saw'? Did it happen just like that, all at once, or were there things that took time... was it gradual.

What works for one might not work for another - so you will have to simply let it happen and not base your expectations on somebody else's story... Its all story anyway, isn't it? You having to wake up... what from? Who or what wakes up? Does the body need to wake up? Does this experience have to wake up? Or is waking up simply the realisation that stories are just stories and that there is nothing behind them... no entity "I/me" that would be affected by these stories - just a fictional I/me that lives in the story but once the story ends the I ends as well... another story starts and there it is again, but it is slightly different as now there is the knowing that it is only story... Do you see?

Mostly this happens in steps - the belief in a separate self drops, just like the belief in Santa. How is it when you drop a belief? Is it a firework of bliss? Or is it always different? You might be sad that there is really no Santa, you might be happy or afraid that there is no separate self... who knows what will happen, so don't plan for something that you don't have any control over :-)

[jgordon5]

Now... what identifies with things that happen? Is this more than a thought saying that stuff happens to "you"?
Yes, sure, things happen... but do they require an "I" that they are happening to?

Ok, thanks Alex. I'm working with this and with the looking. I can understand that seeing etc is taking place, there is experiencing without any 'I' to be found - it's not quite sticking yet!
I'll keep looking as often as I remember.

[Alexw]

Hi Jill,

How are you going? Are you still interested in continuing our conversation?
We normally aim at posting once a day to keep things moving...

Alex

[jgordon5]

Sorry Alex

Yes, I'm very interested in continuing. I can't find an 'I' and yet the penny still does not stay dropped!

It's like when I look I see that 'i' do not exist, nowhere to be found as a separate entity only as consciousness flowing/happening and yet still I automatically assume the story and events of 'my life', all the past that seems to have happened to me.

Again, each time I question that, I can understand that they are just thoughts but unless I look and question all the time then I revert to identifying with this imaginary entity Jill.

[Alexw]

Hi Jill,

Again, each time I question that, I can understand that they are just thoughts but unless I look and question all the time then I revert to identifying with this imaginary entity Jill.

That is not unusual, rather the opposite. Did you expect that by seeing that this I/self is only a conceptual entity all selfing mechanisms will immediately vanish, never to be seen again? You have been building them for years and years and it (normally) will take some time to tear down these ego-fortifications.
So keep on doing what you are doing - look and be aware of what is happening - see how the ego-beliefs work - by bringing them to the light they will slowly fade one after the other... Sorry that I can not provide a magic bullet that is used once and its all good ever after :-)

It's like when I look I see that 'i' do not exist, nowhere to be found as a separate entity only as consciousness flowing/happening..

When you look, is there an "I" looking? Do you look at something separate from you? Where is the border?
In this experience, is there a looker and an object being looked at, or is there only "looking" happening?

Alex

[jgordon5]

Did you expect that by seeing that this I/self is only a conceptual entity all selfing mechanisms will immediately vanish, never to be seen again?

Yes, I guess I did! Reading other people's experiences of 'seeing', that's the way it seems to happen. So that's one more expectation to ditch! At least it's getting easier to keep remembering to enquire and look.

In this experience, is there a looker and an object being looked at, or is there only "looking" happening?

There's not exactly a looker, sometimes a feeling of slight confusion about there being no me, nowhere for a me to be located. Thanks for asking that! An interesting one to keep looking at.

[Alexw]

At least it's getting easier to keep remembering to enquire and look.

Do "you" remember and look or is this just happening more and more often?
Do you decide to look? Do you decide anything? When you are hungry, do you decide to walk to the fridge to get something to eat? Do you decide to eat an apple over the pear? What do you decide? Is there anything like a decision at all?

[jgordon5]

Do "you" remember and look or is this just happening more and more often

It's just happening more and more often. There is a pull now towards looking and remembering. Everything is just happening - it's noticed that 'I' still keep making efforts, push towards doing things then realise that it's ridiculous, that I'm not doing anything at all. Old habits seem to take a while to dissolve though, as you said. There's still the idea of this entity letting go of things rather than just seeing what is even though when I look there is nothing to let go of and no separate entity.

Thank you Alex.

[Alexw]

There's still the idea of this entity letting go of things rather than just seeing what is even though when I look there is nothing to let go of and no separate entity

Thats perfectly fine. Ideas and stories will still show up, but now they are not more than story, are they..?

How does that make you feel? What kind of questions arise? Are there any doubts or beliefs you want to look at specifically?

[jgordon5]

Thats perfectly fine. Ideas and stories will still show up, but now they are not more than story, are they..?

Sometimes, especially in situations with lots of interaction, the stories aren't seen for quite some time. 'i' get lost in them rather.

How does that make you feel? What kind of questions arise? Are there any doubts or beliefs you want to look at specifically?

I keep waking in the middle of the night and 'seeing'. Then there is such completeness and peace. Then 'i' return! And it's a sort of see, don't see situation.
Beliefs - one for now, I still get caught in the world out there being separate.
Thank you very much!