Who else is ready to look?

[Brant]

I had such clarity yesterday but today it's really hard to focus for some reason. I'll see how I go tomorrow - don't really want to write shallow ramblings.

[Ilona]

Hi Brant, how is it feeling today? how is that self doing? has there ever been a separate self?
it's great if you can get out into nature and just observe how everything moves and wiggles without effort.
that includes the body, and thoughts that arise about struggle.
please write a lot how you see now. writing itself helps clarify, so don't worry about rambling, you don't' have to submit every word you write.
looking forward to your response.

[Brant]

Whatever I saw on Saturday hasn't stuck, I guess it was just a glimpse. Yesterday, I think I was trying to get back to where I was... which meant I was trying to get to the mind's interpretation of what it was... which was not going to happen. So it's back to square 1. Sometimes I feel like I'll never see this, and others I feel so so close. Those feelings can change in minutes from one to the other. Anyway, I feel a lot clearer today so it's time to push on.

has there ever been a separate self?

For there to have been a separate self, it must have come into reality at some stage after a period where it didn't exist at all. Let's assume it was at some stage of the fetus. Fetus grows, brain forms enough to be able to think...... so there is an assumption here that thought is tied to self. Thought is required for there to be a self, but a self is required for there to be thought since it is the thinker. If self came first then it basically just appeared out of thin air and did not exist in reality. This is all unverifiable though since the past doesn't exist. The only way to verify if the self ever existed at all is by looking in the present. If it doesn't exist now, it never existed at all.

Now look at a character brant. How does that work? What drives it? Can you see that is a fiction, brant is as real as character batman, it's got likes and preferences, but is there anything that directs it in a form of 'me'?

I think of batman and a group of images flashes up. Batman is a label of a character. I think of Brant and a group of images flashes up. Brant is a label which points to it being 'me' which is another label. When I look at what label 'me' points to it's a dead end.

[Ilona]

I think of batman and a group of images flashes up. Batman is a label of a character. I think of Brant and a group of images flashes up. Brant is a label which points to it being 'me' which is another label. When I look at what label 'me' points to it's a dead end.

is there a being behind the label 'me'? if you see the dead end, that 'me' points to nowhere, how does it make you feel? can you examine the feelings at this point..

[Brant]

Me points to nothing and I think I saw that on Saturday but I'm not sure I got the full weight of it. Nothing clicked and I don't feel any different. Also, it feels as though self is well and truly present and even now it feels like I'm right at the beginning. Really struggling to get that clarity I had back again so I can push harder and really try to see there is no me.

[Ilona]

one thing that really helps to clarify is writing. and writing a lot.
if you saw the absense of separate entity behind the words i/ me, then this is it. can you believe again in the fairytell when once you know it wasn't real? of course nothing changes, it's just a drop of belief. and what would change, everything is already the way it is. but sometimes mind refuses to accept and starts creating all kinds of stories, how it should be, why you haven't seen it and so on.
identification does not dissapear over night, I thoughts still come and they will keep coming until they won't. it's not a magic trick where once you see it you dissapear. there has never been a you to dissapear.
now tell me honestly,
is there a separate entity driving your life? what is me?

[Brant]

Today I was able to focus and watch the body / mind operate minus the feeling of 'me' again. While there I was able to think lightly (where is the me here... there is none... there is seeing... the body moves... but there is no me) and experience what I had on Saturday.

can you believe again in the fairytell when once you know it wasn't real?

I thought this over and the answer is plainly no. The more I think about it the more ridiculous it seems.

is there a separate entity driving your life? what is me?

When I ask 'what is me' inevitably a bunch of thoughts come up (images of Brant etc) pointing to the what FEELS like 'me'. These images are memories - this is obvious, but even more obvious is they are thoughts! How can I be a thought? So on one hand, the idea of me points to thoughts / images, but on the other hand these feel like MY thoughts. How is it possible to have a my me? So obviously there are two mes in the equation which throws up a red flag.

I put aside the idea that thought is me, and focus on the owner of the thoughts - the MY thoughts. The thoughts do feel like mine - but what is the owner? When I ask 'what is the owner' I get far more clarity because 'the owner' doesn't have all the past emotional associations attached to it that the question 'what is me' seems to. There is the hand - it opens and closes. The body sits here and watches. There are thoughts. But what owns all this? There is nothing physical owning it. Where does 'me' fit into all this? It doesn't. If there is an owner to this body, brain and thoughts, then there has to be an owner of everything else in this world / universe. If there is an owner where did it come from and when did it begin? How will the owner end and where will it go? There's not even a point to asking these questions because it doesn't exist in reality anyway. These questions really are just overkill once it can be seen that it simply doesn't fit in the present.

This is about all I can write from actual experience.

I really have no idea whether I've actually seen what it is I'm supposed to see. When you ask if I have any doubt at all whether a me exists I will answer no - but I can't tell if it's belief or experience talking... or both.

What's next? Should I write more?

Thanks Ilona! :)

[Ilona]

Oh yes, this is it. It may take some time to sink in. Mind will be trying to dismiss it as too simple, as it will be still looking for the centre out of habit.
There is nothing but thoughts and thoughts come and go without an owner. :)

How does it feel to see that?

[Brant]

It feels as though I have a lot of work in front to really pry open this box fully. It also feels like it's going to take a lot of vigilance to stop adding to the pile.

But... there's also releif... the first time I tried to really see this was about a year ago on RT... after a while I gave up but it never really left me. Certain events transpired which made it too coincidental to not have another push (again coincidentally days before RT closed) and thanks to you I can finally look to the next step.

So thanks again for your help Ilona!

[Ilona]

You are most welcome, Brant.

can you answer some questions now as you see:

what is the self/i/me/ and how does it work in a life of human?
how would you explain this to somebody who have never heard of it before?
what is real?

[Brant]

what is the self/i/me/ and how does it work in a life of human?

Self/i/me doesn't exist in reality. It is an idea and a pointer to nothing. It is a label to a collection of a thoughts which the human mind incorrectly assumes to be the controller, seer, doer and thinker. The problem with this is because it has been assumed since a very early age, the assumption has never been really checked, and it gets continually fed in a closed feedback loop of reinforcement. There is picking up the ball, then due to the assumption that there is a doer, this becomes I picked up the ball which reinforces the idea of self by becoming a memory under the label 'me' and all the things 'I' did. There doesn't need to be a 'me' in the equation - the body / mind controls itself - there is no individual entity sitting on the shoulders like an invisible monkey pupeteer.

what is real?

Only the present is real. Once the mind labels something it is already false / not real / in the past / a memory / the content of thought. I'm not sure if my interpretation of this is correct, but an example coming to mind would be 'the spoon doesn't exist' in The Matrix. Once the mind has identified an object, it has converted the present to a memory, compared it to past memories and categorised it as spoon. The memory is the content of thought (not real), and the label is the pointer to content of thought (also not real). So once you can say it is a spoon, you're referring to the pointer of memories - which don't exist in reality.

Just thinking now, this is the difference between duality and non-duality. Duality is separating reality into smaller mind-created packages - labels. The reality of the situation does not involve content of thought - everything is one.

how would you explain this to somebody who have never heard of it before?

It depends on the person and how unconscious they are as to how much intellectual background to feed them first so they don't reject the notion outright without actually looking and thinking for themselves. Tolle's description of the ego I think would be good background information up front (for those that know nothing about spirituality that is). Then it's just a matter of asking them to show me what 'me' is in reality. Then it's a simple task of pointing out the holes in their assumptions. Early: "There is no separate entity behind the idea me / i / self - do you agree?" Then later: "Is that your hand? What if it was chopped off - is it still your hand? When does it cease to become your hand? What owns thoughts if they are YOUR thoughts? How does this ownership work?"

[Brant]

You know what... I really don't think I'm out. I read all these other people's dialogues and they experience something I have not. From where I am nothing has changed at all.

I'm going to take some time off from this - it's been so draining. If I have seen it then it will unravel. If I have not then I'll return and have another crack some time when I've recovered my energy.

[Ilona]

No you are not out yet. One foot through but not the other. It's ok.
It's all happening by itself anyway. Notice that. Trust the process. If it feels you need a break, take a break.

We'll talk when you ready.
Much love.

[Ilona]

How is it going, my friend?

[Brant]

I'm still here - I won't dissappear - this is too important. I'll be back to finish this thread soon.