Finally Breaking Through

[Sarah7]

Mornin Bob!

Looking back. I think it was made up mostly of thought, but also some feeling in the body – a sensation, or a feeling.

OK – so no worries if it isn’t here now – if it turns up again have a go. If forgetting happens – no worries, just have a look when remembering happens! OK. Its all about picking apart what is actually happening – so look at what is being experienced. Whether thought comes first before sensation or the other way round, look at habits roll here too e.g. the habit of going to thought first rather than looking. So Ill leave this with you.

In the past, I have also had many experiences where other kinds of thoughts seemingly triggered very powerful emotions, and these have been “deprogrammed” and I no longer have any negative emotion whatsoever as a result of these thoughts.

And isn’t this all a thought as well! LOL.

Seems like a show is just randomly happening - both a thought show, and also a doing show. It’s fun to notice things.

OK – keep at this till there is no seems – have fun with it, get curious about it – just notice – that’s all that’s needed. Are you sure there is no doer and there is no thinker – that they are both just ‘doing a show’? I don’t need all that you notice, and you don’t have to come back with this tomorrow – take your time and just notice.

I want to remember to do this exact noticing /looking process the next time I have a strong emotion and really dissect it and notice every little piece of the process.

Who is there to remember? Do you forget on purpose?

No. You are NOT assigning too much. Yesterday was a long day of “responsibilities”. Load me up. I want to see. Hit me with a stick if you have to. I don’t care.

OK then - Lets look at sensory experience and we are going to start with seeing.

Describe the experience of seeing step-by-step. In seeing, what is being experienced? What is happening when "seeing" is happening? What is doing the seeing? What is being seen? What does "seeing" consists of? Go into detail. Describe the actual, direct experience of seeing.

Gaze at an object. Turn up that inner magnifying glass to observe what's happening in direct experience. Do you first perceive the object using some other sense, and then see it later? Can you find a dividing line between the object and the seeing of it? Or are the object and the seeing of it inseparable? Is there an entity called "you" experiencing the seeing? Can you find a dividing line between "you" and seeing? Is it an accurate description of direct experience? Are there really three entities there in direct experience, an "I" and seer and an object? Or is there only seeing? What do you see about the thought, "I'm seeing that object"?

Try it with various sights e.g. out of the window at a distant view. See if you can find a way to separate the object from the seeing and the seeing from the seer. Where does one start and the other end? How many senses are there here - 1 or more?

there are a gazillion things happening that I am unaware of – cells reproducing, small hairs within the nose moving, little pieces of the ear moving to capture sound from the environment – but these are just thoughts that I have read from books – I have not actually seen them. There is a randomness and a chaos to it (thoughts) and at the same time an order to it (thoughts) all. The self seems to be a useful organizing principle – a useful thought - a category heading, under which a list of random actions and thoughts arise.

And could you find the controller of any of this?
Hugs Sarah xxx

[BobUnleashed]

Mornin Bob!
Its all about picking apart what is actually happening – so look at what is being experienced. Whether thought comes first before sensation or the other way round, look at habits roll here too e.g. the habit of going to thought first rather than looking. So Ill leave this with you.

Ok. That 2nd to last sentence nailed it – the habit of going first to thought rather than looking. Thank you!
I watched this really closely. Several more times in the last 24 hours. I never realized it but there seem to be many little contractions and expansions happening in my body throughout the day, which the mind just comes in and labels after the fact – and the mind sometimes just makes up complete and utter BULLSHIT!! labels for its translation. Just pure made up stuff. Like it had to come up with some explanation for the contraction so it picked some random negative thing.

For example, I woke up with a contracted feeling in my chest and stomach and then my mind started coming up with all kinds of reasons for it – like you’ve got to finish that project at work, or so and so doesn’t like you, or there is too much to do you’ll never get it all done, or blah, blah, blah – whatever! Now in the past I would have just assumed that the thought happened first…but that is not what happened in this case….I saw it this time…….it was UNMISTAKEABLE that the SENSATION of CONTRACTION came FIRST, the feeling in my stomach happened, and then the mind just made something up, literally invented something – seemingly to explain the sensation – OMG!
This same situation occurred several more times throughout the day and each time, the mind came in and mislabeled the contracting feeling.

In the past, I have also had many experiences where other kinds of thoughts seemingly triggered very powerful emotions, and these have been “deprogrammed” and I no longer have any negative emotion whatsoever as a result of these thoughts.

And isn’t this all a thought as well! LOL.

LOL – yeah! Ok – I started laughing hysterically at what you wrote. I see this!

Seems like a show is just randomly happening - both a thought show, and also a doing show. It’s fun to notice things.

OK – keep at this till there is no seems – have fun with it, get curious about it – just notice – that’s all that’s needed. Are you sure there is no doer and there is no thinker – that they are both just ‘doing a show’? I don’t need all that you notice, and you don’t have to come back with this tomorrow – take your time and just notice.

OK – I took a long walk today and several short drives in my automobile. Each time I could see the actions of doing and thinking happening without “my” control – on autopilot. It was amazing watching the body do all this stuff without a controller. I looked and could not find the doer in each of these cases. I look for the doer or look for the thinker….And when I can’t find the doer or the thinker, I get a blank spaciousness feeling like I am meditating – just an emptiness – just nothing….Does this make any sense?

Something is loosening up but there is still doubt. At sometimes it seems more like a show than at others.

I want to remember to do this exact noticing /looking process the next time I have a strong emotion and really dissect it and notice every little piece of the process.

Who is there to remember? Do you forget on purpose?

LOL – no, remembering happens, and forgetting happens (plus if my controller is forgetting he must be doing a bad job :) )

OK then - Lets look at sensory experience and we are going to start with seeing.
Describe the experience of seeing step-by-step. In seeing, what is being experienced?
What is happening when "seeing" is happening? What is doing the seeing? What is being seen? What does "seeing" consists of? Go into detail. Describe the actual, direct experience of seeing.

When seeing is happening, colors are observed by the body, and then memory is searched for potential matches of what is being seen, then once a match is found the object being observed is labeled.

When the eyes are open, I experience colors and shapes. Images.

When the eyes are closed, I still experience colors and shapes but they tend to be light spots on a dark background.

Step by step:
1. I feel slight pressure in the area of my head where my eyes are focusing
2. I experience colors.
3. The colors experienced are compared to thoughts in the seer’s memory in an attempt to determine the properties of what is being observed. These properties could be varied and include living/inanimate/solid/liquid/gas/size/distance/edges/shape/in-motion/still.
4. The properties are compared to the users memory to find a label that matches those properties
5. Once a match is found a label and/or multiple labels are assigned

Gaze at an object. Turn up that inner magnifying glass to observe what's happening in direct experience. Do you first perceive the object using some other sense, and then see it later?

There seems to be a slight pressure in the eye area whenever I focus on an object and look. This seems like some kind of touch sensation in the area of the eyes. Then I see the object. Sometimes it almost feels like the eyes are touching what is being seen (that sounds weird, I know).

Can you find a dividing line between the object and the seeing of it? Or are the object and the seeing of it inseparable?

No, I cannot find a dividing line between the object and the seeing of the object. My experience is telling me that “the object” and “the seeing of the object” are the same thing. I am not sure what you mean by inseparable, but I am taking that to “the same thing” or “equal”. It is like the images are occurring inside my body.

My mind is telling me that the object and the seeing are different things, but my experience is telling me that they are the same.

Is there an entity called "you" experiencing the seeing?

No. I am experiencing that I and the seeing are the same. The images are so close inside me that it is like I am touching them.

However, my mind is telling me that I am separate from the objects that are being seen….as in I am an object over here and those other objects are over there....so there is some doubt.

Can you find a dividing line between "you" and seeing?

No – I see no dividing line between “me” and “seeing”. They are one and the same, like the images are inside me.

But again, my mind is telling me that I am separate. My mind is saying that I am a separate object from those other things.

Is it an accurate description of direct experience?

When I look it seems like I am one with the image. Almost like my eyes are touching the image. Then my mind jumps in and says that I am a separate object from what is being seen.

Are there really three entities there in direct experience, an "I" and seer and an object? Or is there only seeing?

I am getting glimpses of 1 entity – seeing. Then the mind keeps on dividing and separating and I question what I am seeing.

What do you see about the thought, "I'm seeing that object"?

I see that this thought separates the object, seeing, and the seer into three entities.

Try it with various sights e.g. out of the window at a distant view. See if you can find a way to separate the object from the seeing and the seeing from the seer. Where does one start and the other end? How many senses are there here - 1 or more?

When looking out of the window at a distant view, it seems easier to see object-seer-seeing as one. In a smaller busy room such as the messy room I am in right now, it is harder to see it all as one because the mind seems to want to label everything like crazy.

I am sensing two senses:
• Sense of touch – yes – I feel pressure in the eyes area when I look
• Sense of sight – yes
• Sense of hearing – no, although this could be happening concurrently
• Sense of smell – no, although this could be happening concurrently
• Sense of taste – no, although this could be happening concurrently

there are a gazillion things happening that I am unaware of – cells reproducing, small hairs within the nose moving, little pieces of the ear moving to capture sound from the environment – but these are just thoughts that I have read from books – I have not actually seen them. There is a randomness and a chaos to it (thoughts) and at the same time an order to it (thoughts) all. The self seems to be a useful organizing principle – a useful thought - a category heading, under which a list of random actions and thoughts arise.

And could you find the controller of any of this?

Nope. No controller - especially no controller on all the small subconscious things like blinking, inhaling/exhaling, etc.

I recognized something new this morning regarding sensation / thought / experience. This morning I had a song stuck in my head (American Authors “Believer”). At first I thought it was playing in my head and just assumed that that is what was happening. Then I had the thought “Really Look” so I looked really closely and saw that “song stuck in the head” was just a thought (which of course is a thought), and then when I looked I found that the song was actually vibrating in my body in my upper stomach and chest area. Literally there was a sensation or feeling there as if my body was “playing” the music, was vibrating the music, and my thought was translating it as “stuck in the head” when really it was “stuck in my upper stomach and chest area”. This was not something of course that I controlled or did, it just happened, the sensations just started to happen. There was no choice involved. No decision to be made. No controller of the music could be found – it was just playing. There was a very clear seeing that the music was “playing in my body”, which was vibrating the sounds out like a base speaker, and – literally vibrating out of my stomach and chest” and that thought translated it as “song stuck in the head”. As I am writing this I have the thought that “that sounds weird” and “I must be crazy”.

[Sarah7]

Morning Bob

I saw it this time…….it was UNMISTAKEABLE that the SENSATION of CONTRACTION came FIRST, the feeling in my stomach happened, and then the mind just made something up, literally invented something – seemingly to explain the sensation – OMG!

Lovely! Lovely noticing’s all round!

Does this make any sense? Something is loosening up but there is still doubt. At sometimes it seems more like a show than at others.

Yes :) but keep looking. Leave no stone unturned. What is doubt? Thought, feeling, sensation, what? Thought explaining again? Thought saying this cant be it? What?

I feel slight pressure in the area of my head where my eyes are focusing

Is that thought explaining a sensation – can you look please?

I experience colors.

Is colour a thought?

No, I cannot find a dividing line between the object and the seeing of the object. My experience is telling me that “the object” and “the seeing of the object” are the same thing. I am not sure what you mean by inseparable, but I am taking that to “the same thing” or “equal”. It is like the images are occurring inside my body.

My mind is telling me that the object and the seeing are different things, but my experience is telling me that they are the same.

OK – think of a TV screen with a film about nature on it. There may be a wonderful panoramic view of mountains with fields of flowers and animals and a river etc. There is what appears to be a background, a foreground and everything in between. BUT it’s a screen – there is really no space between the background and foreground – that’s just thought saying its there. Do you see?

OK so now go back to gazing at an object – what says it over there and you are over here and there is space in between etc. Where do ‘you’ end and ‘it’ begins? Or is it really experienced on an indivisible screen of seeing?

Does seeing happen even when attention is elsewhere?

I am getting glimpses of 1 entity – seeing. Then the mind keeps on dividing and separating and I question what I am seeing.

OK – so if thought comes in – see if there is something that wants to shut thought up! If so – what is that?

I am sensing two senses:

Check – two senses or a thought labelling and separating sensation?

There was a very clear seeing that the music was “playing in my body”,

Like the radio – do you have control over what song comes out or is played on you? It was noticed the song of music was played through you/in you, the song of labelling came on and above the song of seeing followed. Keep watching – what song is ever permanent? Does the song constantly change? Does the radio have control anywhere?
Hugs Sarah xxx

[BobUnleashed]

Hi Sarah!

Does this make any sense? Something is loosening up but there is still doubt. At sometimes it seems more like a show than at others.

Yes :) but keep looking. Leave no stone unturned. What is doubt? Thought, feeling, sensation, what? Thought explaining again? Thought saying this can’t be it? What?

Ok. I woke up this morning and was lying in bed with my eyes closed, quietly resting, then a thought arose that would normally hook me emotionally – that would have been very emotionally threatening to my “I”. Then I laughed, because I saw clearly that it was just a thought and had no basis in reality. It wasn’t translated from anything. It just popped in…and then disappeared. Not the slightest bit of identification with it. I saw that it was clearly a “thought show”. I laughed. I experienced a sense of freedom (thought) translated from a sensation of expansion.

Then once I opened my eyes all kinds of seeing (and hearing and touching) was happening and doubts started creeping in. I looked at the doubts. Behind the doubts there seemed to be a sensation of contraction again. The sensation seemed to come from inside my body near the chest and throat area. Thought jumped in to explain it as the feeling of uncertainty or doubt. I think the mind is labeling or translating this sensation. I breathed deeply and sank into the sensation, looked at the sensation and felt it thoroughly, and then it dissipated, and then the doubt dissipated.

I have been doing this now each time I feel the contraction sensation and accompanying uncertainty. Each time the sensation dissipates and the doubts dissipate.

I feel slight pressure in the area of my head where my eyes are focusing

Is that thought explaining a sensation – can you look please?

Yes, I look at this computer screen I feel the sensation that my thoughts say are the eyes focusing. My thoughts say that it feels kind of like eye strain.

I experience colors.

Is colour a thought?

LOL – yes, it is. I see the color, then the mind translates the image into the label/name for the color like green, or brown or whatever.

No, I cannot find a dividing line between the object and the seeing of the object. My experience is telling me that “the object” and “the seeing of the object” are the same thing. I am not sure what you mean by inseparable, but I am taking that to “the same thing” or “equal”. It is like the images are occurring inside my body.

My mind is telling me that the object and the seeing are different things, but my experience is telling me that they are the same.

OK – think of a TV screen with a film about nature on it. There may be a wonderful panoramic view of mountains with fields of flowers and animals and a river etc. There is what appears to be a background, a foreground and everything in between. BUT it’s a screen – there is really no space between the background and foreground – that’s just thought saying its there. Do you see?

Yes. I see that clearly. It is all on a flat screen with no real depth to it – it is all a flat picture.

OK so now go back to gazing at an object – what says it over there and you are over here and there is space in between etc. Where do ‘you’ end and ‘it’ begins? Or is it really experienced on an indivisible screen of seeing?

Thoughts are saying I am over here and there is space in between, based on past memories and experience (which is probably a good thing so that I don’t bump into things), but that is thought….from an experience standpoint it is all one screen.

I am experiencing an indivisible screen of seeing and I can see that. Seeing is happening…there is no seer to be found in the scene – it is all one.

Does seeing happen even when attention is elsewhere?

From an experience standpoint – NO, it doesn’t happen, although somehow the body knows. I remember driving the car and having my attention on thoughts, only to realize I had driven some distance without remembering it. This is the autopilot effect that we were talking about earlier in this thread. Somehow the body knows what is going on and keeps going, even though from an experience standpoint I don’t remember the seeing when the attention is elsewhere. Who is controlling the body when the attention is elsewhere? :) Not "I", but I he is a good driver :)

I am getting glimpses of 1 entity – seeing. Then the mind keeps on dividing and separating and I question what I am seeing.

OK – so if thought comes in – see if there is something that wants to shut thought up! If so – what is that?

It is another thought arising that says "your body is over here and those other things are over there"
Also, I have noticed that the same thought translating sensation describe in this post above is also responsible for the feeling of separation.

I am sensing two senses:

Check – two senses or a thought labelling and separating sensation?

It is thought labeling the eye strain sensation mentioned above.

There was a very clear seeing that the music was “playing in my body”,

Like the radio – do you have control over what song comes out or is played on you?

Nope. I noticed this was happening “automatically”. It was cool!

It was noticed the song of music was played through you/in you, the song of labelling came on and above the song of seeing followed. Keep watching – what song is ever permanent?

There seems to be a spaciousness/emptiness/nothingness/beingness/presence that is present throughout and permanent. Every time I look it is there, although it sometimes is obscured by emotions/thoughts.

Does the song constantly change?

All of the other songs change and are dynamic (the seeing, the labeling, the vibration of music) but the song of spaciousness/emptiness/nothingness/beingness/presence is everpresent and remains the same.

Does the radio have control anywhere?

No , the radio is dynamic and constantly changing.

-Bob

[Sarah7]

Hey Bob!

Then I laughed, because I saw clearly that it was just a thought and had no basis in reality. It wasn’t translated from anything. It just popped in…and then disappeared.

Lovely! Now what if it comes back and identification happens? Is that a problem? If so to who or what?

Thought jumped in to explain it as the feeling of uncertainty or doubt. I think the mind is labeling or translating this sensation. I breathed deeply and sank into the sensation, looked at the sensation and felt it thoroughly, and then it dissipated, and then the doubt dissipated.

Well observed. Keep watching this pattern.

I have been doing this now each time I feel the contraction sensation and accompanying uncertainty. Each time the sensation dissipates and the doubts dissipate.

Can you please check for thoughts knowing that this is a way to get rid of unwanted thoughts or feelings – In other words does the radio have an opinion on what songs should or shouldn’t be played on it? To switch analogies - is one reflection on the surface of the mirror wrong and another right? Does that which notices care what is experienced? Do you see?

Thoughts are saying I am over here and there is space in between, based on past memories and experience (which is probably a good thing so that I don’t bump into things), but that is thought….from an experience standpoint it is all one screen.

LOL – yes – please don’t stand in front of a bus to test this though! :)

From an experience standpoint – NO, it doesn’t happen, although somehow the body knows. I remember driving the car and having my attention on thoughts, only to realize I had driven some distance without remembering it. This is the autopilot effect that we were talking about earlier in this thread. Somehow the body knows what is going on and keeps going, even though from an experience standpoint I don’t remember the seeing when the attention is elsewhere. Who is controlling the body when the attention is elsewhere? :) Not "I", but I he is a good driver :)

So you are saying that seeing stopped happening here – or attention was elsewhere and seeing still dealt with driving? Im not asking about your attention – Im asking does seeing happen even when your attention is on other things – test it!

It is another thought arising that says "your body is over here and those other things are over there" Also, I have noticed that the same thought translating sensation describe in this post above is also responsible for the feeling of separation.

Now you see it does it matter? Or is it simply another song?

There seems to be a spaciousness/emptiness/nothingness/beingness/presence that is present throughout and permanent. Every time I look it is there, although it sometimes is obscured by emotions/thoughts.

Yeh – that’s what I call that which notices – or the radio – or the mirror – or the ocean! LOL. See if you can spot a time when it isn’t noticing! Or it isn’t accessible? Or it is minding what appears!
Hugs Sarah xxx

[BobUnleashed]

Hi Sarah!

It's getting good now!

There seems to be a spaciousness/emptiness/nothingness/beingness/presence that is present throughout and permanent. Every time I look it is there, although it sometimes is obscured by emotions/thoughts.

Yeh – that’s what I call that which notices – or the radio – or the mirror – or the ocean! LOL. See if you can spot a time when it isn’t noticing!

No – it is always noticing something – either one of the 5 channels of the senses, or the channel of thought, or looking at itself.

(Except for maybe when the body is unconscious during sleep and not dreaming perhaps?)

Or it isn’t accessible?

It is always accessible. Sometimes it drops into the background (when identification occurs), and sometimes it is in the foreground.

Or it is minding what appears!

It doesn’t mind what appears on any of the channels. No matter what show is playing. It is the calm in the eye of the storm.

Then I laughed, because I saw clearly that it was just a thought and had no basis in reality. It wasn’t translated from anything. It just popped in…and then disappeared.

Lovely! Now what if it comes back and identification happens? Is that a problem? If so to who or what?

If the thought “identification” happens, it is another thought that is part of the thought show, and I watch it arise and dissipate.

If the thought “problem” arises, that too, is another thought that is part of the thought show, and I watch it arise and dissipate.

If identification occurs and I ask the question “To who?” or “To what?” now it more quickly brings the Ocean to the foreground.

I have been doing this now each time I feel the contraction sensation and accompanying uncertainty. Each time the sensation dissipates and the doubts dissipate.

Can you please check for thoughts knowing that this is a way to get rid of unwanted thoughts or feelings – In other words does the radio have an opinion on what songs should or shouldn’t be played on it?

I checked. The answer is NO - I can see that it has no opinion.

To switch analogies - is one reflection on the surface of the mirror wrong and another right?

No. The reflection is just a reflection.

Does that which notices care what is experienced?

No – it doesn’t care.

Do you see?

Yes – I can see the answers to these last few questions very clearly.

From an experience standpoint – NO, it doesn’t happen, although somehow the body knows. I remember driving the car and having my attention on thoughts, only to realize I had driven some distance without remembering it. This is the autopilot effect that we were talking about earlier in this thread. Somehow the body knows what is going on and keeps going, even though from an experience standpoint I don’t remember the seeing when the attention is elsewhere. Who is controlling the body when the attention is elsewhere? :) Not "I", but I he is a good driver :)

So you are saying that seeing stopped happening here – or attention was elsewhere and seeing still dealt with driving? Im not asking about your attention – Im asking does seeing happen even when your attention is on other things – test it!

Ok. I tested it. Seeing is happening, even with attention elsewhere, as are the other senses - although the recall of what was seen is greatly reduced with the attention on other things.

It is another thought arising that says "your body is over here and those other things are over there" Also, I have noticed that the same thought translating sensation describe in this post above is also responsible for the feeling of separation.

Now you see it does it matter? Or is it simply another song?

It is just another song. :)

I am starting to see the ocean/radio more and more in the foreground now.

-Bob

[Sarah7]

Good mornin Bob!

Except for maybe when the body is unconscious during sleep and not dreaming perhaps?

Don’t guess! Look to what is experienced. Im not talking about ‘you’ noticing. Im after that which is noticing ‘you’ too! Do you see?

If identification occurs and I ask the question “To who?” or “To what?” now it more quickly brings the Ocean to the foreground.

Good questions! But what if anything would it BE a problem for? Thought? If so did you bring it? Did you re-identify on purpose?

Ok. I tested it. Seeing is happening, even with attention elsewhere, as are the other senses - although the recall of what was seen is greatly reduced with the attention on other things.

So you are clear with seeing now? So we move onto hearing!

Notice the sounds you’re hearing, like the chirping of the birds. Notice the habitual thought, "Those are birds." Notice the habitual thought, "I hear that." Now just pay attention to how hearing happens. Take your time with it. Can you find a dividing line between the sound and the hearing of the sound? Are you doing the hearing? Or is it truer to say that hearing is just happening? Then look to see whether there's a dividing line between the hearing of it and a separate entity, a "you," doing the hearing. In other words, what does it mean when you say, "I'm hearing that sound"? Are there really three entities there in direct experience, an "I" and hearing and a sound? Or is there just one experience of hearing, with no one as a hearer. Look closely. Try it with various sounds. See if you can find a way to separate the sound from the hearing and the hearing from the hearer. Where does one start and the other end? So what do you see about the thought, "I'm hearing that sound"? Is it an accurate description of direct experience? What is a noise? Is that a label also? Is the sound there? Can you really know?
Hugs Sarah xxx

[BobUnleashed]

Sarah,

Happy Saturday!

Except for maybe when the body is unconscious during sleep and not dreaming perhaps?

Don’t guess! Look to what is experienced. Im not talking about ‘you’ noticing. Im after that which is noticing ‘you’ too! Do you see?

I am not sure if I am seeing what you are pointing at.

-Bob

Here is what I am seeing:

That which is “noticing me” is what I refer to as the witness or awareness. The witness is aware of the 5 senses and thoughts. The “me” or the “I” is one of the thoughts (and that is what I am trying to see clearly, that “I” or “me” is just a thought). When the witness looks at itself, the witness is not really witnessable, and looks like the ocean of spaciousness/beingness/oneness/nothingness/presence etc.

If identification occurs and I ask the question “To who?” or “To what?” now it more quickly brings the Ocean to the foreground.

Good questions! But what if anything would it BE a problem for? Thought?”

It wouldn't be a problem for anything. Thoughts can’t have problems. LOL. Thoughts can’t have anything for that matter. : )

If so did you bring it?

No – I didn’t bring the thought….it just arose.

Did you re-identify on purpose?

No, the identification is just another thought, that arose, without any purposefulness from me.

Ok. I tested it. Seeing is happening, even with attention elsewhere, as are the other senses - although the recall of what was seen is greatly reduced with the attention on other things.

So you are clear with seeing now? So we move onto hearing!

Yes. I am seeing….even with my eyes closed, I realize that I am still seeing – even if I am seeing darkness, or darkness with light patterns moving across, I am still seeing. Even with my attention elsewhere, seeing is still happening.

Notice the sounds you’re hearing, like the chirping of the birds. Notice the habitual thought, "Those are birds." Notice the habitual thought, "I hear that." Now just pay attention to how hearing happens. Take your time with it. Can you find a dividing line between the sound and the hearing of the sound?

I feel no separation, no dividing line between sound and the hearing of sound.

Are you doing the hearing? Or is it truer to say that hearing is just happening?

It is truer that the hearing is just happening.

Then look to see whether there's a dividing line between the hearing of it and a separate entity, a "you," doing the hearing. In other words, what does it mean when you say, "I'm hearing that sound"? Are there really three entities there in direct experience, an "I" and hearing and a sound?

I am not feeling the separation – the 3 entities. Hearing is just happening. I feel like the sound is happening inside of me – not somewhere “out there”. The sound is integrated into me.

Or is there just one experience of hearing, with no one as a hearer.

I am having the experience of hearing with no one as the hearer.

Look closely. Try it with various sounds.

OK. I found that the sounds of people talking seem more “separate” than other types of sounds. “I” think “they” are over there and talking to me who is over here. I recognize that is thought imagining separation. Hearing is happening with these types of sounds just as they are with other sounds.

I found that different thoughts tend to arise based on the type of sounds being heard - such as a movie playing with all kinds of explosions and bombs going off may trigger different thoughts than that of music playing or birds chirping.

….so a different thought-show can seemingly be triggered by different sounds…but the thoughts are just thoughts, and the sounds are just sounds, and the hearing is happening. I am still experience the sound happening within me. Hearing is happening.

See if you can find a way to separate the sound from the hearing and the hearing from the hearer.

I can’t seem to do this.

Where does one start and the other end?

The sound, the hearing, and the hearer all feel like one.

So what do you see about the thought, "I'm hearing that sound"? Is it an accurate description of direct experience?

No – it doesn’t seem accurate. Hearing is happening. Hearing feels integrated. Hearing and me seem inseparable.

What is a noise? Is that a label also?

Noise is a thought that is used to label sounds that one does not like.

Is the sound there? Can you really know?

The sound is being experienced inside. It is all happening here, not there.

I could ask others to verify that they heard the same sound that I hear, but I can’t really know.

[Sarah7]

Hey Bob – happy weekend back!:)

That which is “noticing me” is what I refer to as the witness or awareness. The witness is aware of the 5 senses and thoughts. The “me” or the “I” is one of the thoughts (and that is what I am trying to see clearly, that “I” or “me” is just a thought). When the witness looks at itself, the witness is not really witnessable, and looks like the ocean of spaciousness/beingness/oneness/nothingness/presence etc.

I understand now. Are you the witness?

OK. I found that the sounds of people talking seem more “separate” than other types of sounds. “I” think “they” are over there and talking to me who is over here. I recognize that is thought imagining separation. Hearing is happening with these types of sounds just as they are with other sounds.

Have a little experiment with people and hearing. Try and break down that experience a bit more – see if you can detect the thoughts that make ‘peoples voices’ more separate. Is there a story there? I don’t need it all – just see what comes up – and give me a couple of examles of what you spot!

No – it doesn’t seem accurate. Hearing is happening. Hearing feels integrated. Hearing and me seem inseparable.

So does hearing also happen even when attention is elsewhere?
Are you clear with hearing now?
Hugs Sarah xxx

[BobUnleashed]

Hi Sarah,

That which is “noticing me” is what I refer to as the witness or awareness. The witness is aware of the 5 senses and thoughts. The “me” or the “I” is one of the thoughts (and that is what I am trying to see clearly, that “I” or “me” is just a thought). When the witness looks at itself, the witness is not really witnessable, and looks like the ocean of spaciousness/beingness/oneness/nothingness/presence etc.

I understand now. Are you the witness?

No – I am not the witness. I can’t control where the witness looks. It just witnesses all over the place, switching between thoughts and the senses, and looking at itself.

OK. I found that the sounds of people talking seem more “separate” than other types of sounds. “I” think “they” are over there and talking to me who is over here. I recognize that is thought imagining separation. Hearing is happening with these types of sounds just as they are with other sounds.

Have a little experiment with people and hearing. Try and break down that experience a bit more – see if you can detect the thoughts that make ‘peoples voices’ more separate. Is there a story there? I don’t need it all – just see what comes up – and give me a couple of examles of what you spot!

LOL – I think when they are saying something that I judge to be peaceful and pleasant, then there is less separateness. If they say something that I judge to be irritating or unpleasant in some way, then I feel more separate. I guess I shift from hearing to identification with the unpleasant thoughts…LOL

No – it doesn’t seem accurate. Hearing is happening. Hearing feels integrated. Hearing and me seem inseparable.

So does hearing also happen even when attention is elsewhere?
Are you clear with hearing now?

Yes, hearing also happens when attention is elsewhere.

Yes, I am clear.

-Bob

[Sarah7]

Hey Bob!

LOL – I think when they are saying something that I judge to be peaceful and pleasant, then there is less separateness. If they say something that I judge to be irritating or unpleasant in some way, then I feel more separate. I guess I shift from hearing to identification with the unpleasant thoughts…LOL

LOL :) Who or what is irritated? Or is it that irritation just happened? Was it a song on the radio or a reflection crossing that mirror?

OK – onto touch!

Touch a table (or any object!) with your eyes shut (or open). Pretend like it’s the first time you have ever touched a table. Go straight to the raw sensation/perception. What is your direct experience of this ‘table’? List your direct experience. Is it senses again? Is it thoughts again? Look very closely. Which comes first the senses or the thoughts?
Does the sensation of touching come with a shape, density, weight, size, colour, age or function? Does this sensation come with a ‘not me’ label or ‘other’ label? Is it one sensation/perception or two?
Look at how thoughts try and take over, try and explain, try and prove. Notice your memories or references with which you compare the experience.
Sit with these sensations. Look at them. Look at the labelling e.g. table, hand. Look at the thoughts or story that attach at the end of this list if any. What is your direct experience of these words? Do they exist outside of thought? Are they sensations again? Are they just thoughts again? Look very closely. Which comes first the sensation or the thoughts? Don’t pay attention to the thoughts just look at what they do, when they come in.

Sit on a chair with your eyes closed. Feel the Direct Experience of sitting there. Notice thoughts thinking, labelling and explaining. Notice memory too. Notice sensations experiencing. Notice the sensation of bottom on chair – what is that – a thought? Notice the ‘me’ ‘mine labels e.g. this is my bottom – but look closely at that sensation labelling – is it yours, or just coming and going along with thoughts, ever changing. Is it the thought that wants to own? How many sensations do you notice? 2? One bottom sensation, and one chair sensation? How is that possible? Where does one sensation end and another begin? Locate that line. Can you feel that line? Or is that thought? Can you sense that line – or is that thought explaining the sensation?

Do we experience sensations or do we experience sensing? For us to experience a sensation it would have to be independently walking around?

Eyes closed. Turn your attention to your skin. Do you have Direct Experience of it being outside?

Do you experience a sensation inside another sensation? Do you experience a perception inside another perception? A sensation inside a perception, a perception inside a sensation? Do you experience a body in the world and a mind in the body? How can a body be in the world and a mind in a body? Do you experience a thought inside a perception or a sensation? How can you experience a thought inside a body or inside the world? Experience has no inside or outside – it is just experience seamlessly experiencing.
Hugs Sarah xxx

[BobUnleashed]

Hi Sarah,

LOL – I think when they are saying something that I judge to be peaceful and pleasant, then there is less separateness. If they say something that I judge to be irritating or unpleasant in some way, then I feel more separate. I guess I shift from hearing to identification with the unpleasant thoughts…LOL

LOL :) Who or what is irritated? Or is it that irritation just happened? Was it a song on the radio or a reflection crossing that mirror?

Yeah. I watched that really close today. The irritation just happens. It is like a song that just stops playing after a while.

OK – onto touch!
Touch a table (or any object!) with your eyes shut (or open). Pretend like it’s the first time you have ever touched a table. Go straight to the raw sensation/perception. What is your direct experience of this ‘table’? List your direct experience. Is it senses again? Is it thoughts again? Look very closely. Which comes first the senses or the thoughts?

The table: smoothness, slight pressure coming through the fingers. The sensing comes first, then thought comes in an labels it as smooth, or slippery. Thought describes the feeling that is being transmitted through the sense of touch.

Does the sensation of touching come with a shape, density, weight, size, colour, age or function?

The sense of touch feels a certain feeling, then a thought comes in and labels it as a shape or a size.

The sense of touch feels a certain feeling, and then a thought comes in and labels it with density.

The sense of touch feels a certain feeling, and then a thought comes in and label it with a weight, or a possibly labels it with a name.

Colour or age labels are not coming up so much with the sense of touch.

Does this sensation come with a ‘not me’ label or ‘other’ label? Is it one sensation/perception or two?

The sense of touch is not coming with a not me label. I feel like the sense of touch is happening “inside” of me, similar to hearing.

Look at how thoughts try and take over, try and explain, try and prove. Notice your memories or references with which you compare the experience.

Thoughts jump and label and explain everything. The computer is smooth. The keyboard types nicely. The computer is new. The computer is nicer than my previous computer.

Sit with these sensations. Look at them. Look at the labelling e.g. table, hand. Look at the thoughts or story that attach at the end of this list if any. What is your direct experience of these words? Do they exist outside of thought?
Are they sensations again? Are they just thoughts again?

The direct experience of the words themselves is non-existent; they are thoughts, labels, and comments. The direct experience is through the sense only, and there are no words that truly describe that because words are just pointers to the senses, not the senses themselves. The words themselves are thought forms that point to something in reality, but they are not the reality itself, as such, they only exist in thought….so the words aren’t “real”, they are just describing what is real.

Look very closely. Which comes first the sensation or the thoughts? Don’t pay attention to the thoughts just look at what they do, when they come in.

The sensation comes first. As I am typing (which is automatic by the way), I feel the key depress, then hit bottom, then come up, then make a clicking sound. The thoughts come in after the sensations, always.

Sit on a chair with your eyes closed. Feel the Direct Experience of sitting there. Notice thoughts thinking, labelling and explaining. Notice memory too. Notice sensations experiencing. Notice the sensation of bottom on chair – what is that – a thought?

Yes. It is a thought. The sensation itself is an experience, but the description or labeling of the feeling is a thought – for example “I feel pressure on my bottom and lower back” is a thought/label/description.

Notice the ‘me’ ‘mine labels e.g. this is my bottom – but look closely at that sensation labelling – is it yours, or just coming and going along with thoughts, ever changing. Is it the thought that wants to own?

The “I” label is not in the sensation itself. The “I” label is just coming and going along with the thoughts – it does not describe the sensation, but just comes with the thought describing the sensation, it is just attached to the thought but has no relationship with the actual sensation, in that it is not an attempt to describe the sensation - like the thought about the sensation, actually describing anything.

How many sensations do you notice? 2?

I notice one sensation.

One bottom sensation, and one chair sensation? How is that possible?

I notice one sensation. The mind says body, the mind says chair, but there is one sensation.

Where does one sensation end and another begin? Locate that line. Can you feel that line? Or is that thought? Can you sense that line – or is that thought explaining the sensation?

There is no line from a sensation standpoint. Thought attempts to explain where the body ends and the chair begins. Thought is attempting to explain the sensation.

Do we experience sensations or do we experience sensing? For us to experience a sensation it would have to be independently walking around?

Sensing is happening.

Eyes closed. Turn your attention to your skin. Do you have Direct Experience of it being outside?

I have a direct experience of sensations happening, on what thought tells me is the outside of my skin. Examples of thoughts include, itches, wind against the skin. There is no direct experience of being outside. There is an experience of sensation on the skin. “Outside” is a thought.

Do you experience a sensation inside another sensation?

No – there is just sensation. There may be different labels for sensations, but the experience itself is just sensation.

Do you experience a perception inside another perception? A sensation inside a perception, a perception inside a sensation?

No – there is just perception. Again – there may be different labels for various perceptions, but the experience itself is just sensation.

Do you experience a body in the world and a mind in the body? How can a body be in the world and a mind in a body?

No – I do not experience a body in the world, and a mind in the body. I experience sensation.

Do you experience a thought inside a perception or a sensation? How can you experience a thought inside a body or inside the world? Experience has no inside or outside – it is just experience seamlessly experiencing.

No – I do not experience a thought inside a perception or a sensation. I experience sensations, and then I experience thoughts.


-Bob

[Sarah7]

Hey Bob

The words themselves are thought forms that point to something in reality, but they are not the reality itself, as such, they only exist in thought….so the words aren’t “real”, they are just describing what is real.

Ignoring why you answered like this for a second! Is ‘real’ or ‘reality’ actually real? Can you know this? Or is this thought explaining? You know perception/s – but can you actually know anything else?

OK – taste and smell! Have fun with and give me an example from both! Don't forget you are looking for separation and a dividing line between.
Hugs Sarah :)

[BobUnleashed]

Hi Sarah!

The words themselves are thought forms that point to something in reality, but they are not the reality itself, as such, they only exist in thought….so the words aren’t “real”, they are just describing what is real.

Ignoring why you answered like this for a second!

Haha! – OK. Too many philosophy/epistemology classes in college…at least that’s my story anyway : )

Is ‘real’ or ‘reality’ actually real? Can you know this? Or is this thought explaining? You know perception/s – but can you actually know anything else?

No, reality is always coming from a unique point of view – you can’t “really know” in an objective sense….it’s more of a subjective “Knowing” or “Knowledge” – a squishy concept based on what is being perceived.
What I meant by “know” is that I believe that my perceptions are accurate enough to function…ie: Seeing the table. Touching the table. Feeling the shape and the texture of the table. Placing the glass on the table and believing that the glass won’t fall through the table because it is solid. So after all of that perceiving the word “table” seems to accurately label that which is being perceived..….this is all thought explaining. :)

OK – taste and smell! Have fun with and give me an example from both! Don't forget you are looking for separation and a dividing line between.

Taste: I taste my lunch. Leftover steak and broccoli. A lot of sensation is happening with tasting – I didn’t expect tasting to be so complex (thought) - first there is seeing the food, then there is cutting the food with a knife – and feeling the sensation of holding the knife and cutting the food, and then there is a mental thought taste of what the food will taste like before I even experience the sensation of tasting, and anticipation (thought), then picking up the food with the fork, and seeing and smelling the food as the food moves towards the mouth, then there is the experience of touching the food in the mouth on the tongue, and then the taste of the food itself, and then the swallowing of the food, then the feeling of fullness in the stomach. So many different sensations (thought). Thought imagines the texture and the taste before it actually happens. Thought labels the different tastes and the different textures – first the texture and tastes is like broccoli. Then the texture and taste is like steak. Thought makes the judgement “the steak is good”. Thought makes the judgement “the broccoli” is bland. I am feeling somewhat separate with the whole eating/tasting happening. I feel like I am tasting the food more so than tasting is happening. Who would have thought tasting was so complex (thought).

Smell: I smell the coffee. It is brewing in the coffee pot. There is smelling. The smelling is happening. Smelling is more like hearing to me – like it is happening inside of me. But then I question what just happened. Did I hear the coffee pot brewing? Did the smell arise as a thought in my mind when I heard the coffee put gurgling? I pour the coffee. The steam rises from the coffee. I feel the sensation of moisture on my face as I raise the mug to my mouth. The smell of the coffee arises, and thoughts of relaxation enter my mind, and the sensation of touch – as the texture and warmth of the liquid, as well as the taste hits me all at once as I drink the coffee.

-Bob

[Sarah7]

Mornin Bob!

Haha! – OK. Too many philosophy/epistemology classes in college…at least that’s my story anyway : )

And how did that work out for you? All that knowledge that is? :)

I am feeling somewhat separate with the whole eating/tasting happening.

Try it with eyes shut – but please be careful of forks!

Close your eyes and relax for a minute.
Then examine the body from inside.
Can you know, without memory and concepts, how big this body is? How far away the head is from toes? Is there a line, that separates inside from outside? Here from there?
Scan the body for tensions and look at them closer, what is happening? What are these sensations? What are these sensations happening to? Is there awareness of hand if focus goes on a foot?
Play with this and write what you notice.
Notice this, where focus goes, labelling, narrating story follows. Mind is describing what is being experienced after it has been experienced.
Now do the same exercise with eyes open. What is different? Is there a line between inside and outside? What is that separates here from there? Is there an edge to experience?

Next time when you talk to someone try this:
There is a sound (voice of the other) and a sight that is labelled as the 'other body'. But, is there any link between the sound and the sight, meaning that the sound is coming from that sight (the other) or only thoughts and mental constructs link them?
Hugs Sarah xxx