You would think by now..

[Johnw]

Ok. Will do this but it will be tomorrow before I can get back to you. Thanks again.
Regards
John

[KevinD]

That's okay, take your time, John.

[Johnw]

Hi Kevin
Music
The memory of the music can’t stir up emotions (joy, sadness etc) the way the heard music can. Memory is inaccurate-parts of the tune and music and instrumentality are wrong or missing, there is lack of clarity, feeling and meaning. Clearly the heard music puts all the pieces together for a true, wholesome experience.
Taste
This is more difficult. Not easy to imagine a taste. I can only get words such as sweet, sour, rough, smooth, juicy or dry. The taste and texture of my pear was clearly better than the thought of it and is really indescribable. But clearly the direct experience of it is more satisfying than the thought of it.
Object
The piece of wood had texture that I couldn’t visualise. Clearly, the tactile sensation is better and more accurate than the thought.
I see where you are coming from but the problem I have is that, whereas I can grasp the pear and the piece of wood and I can physically hear the music, I have no such tactile or sensory perception of the DE that you require in dealing with metaphysical matters such as feelings. All I can do is go within and try to “feel” what is true and perhaps listen to what is being said to me.
If you ask me whether the water in the pool is hot or cold, I can only hazard a guess. The only way to find out is to plunge in without thinking about it. If I understand you correctly, when you ask me again to tell you something from DE, I will try to stop dragging things from mind and memory and concentrate on the present moment and my feelings within to find the truth. And I do so want to find the truth.
Regards
John.

[KevinD]

Nice work John,
You can see how much more true direct experience is.

I have no such tactile or sensory perception of the DE that you require in dealing with metaphysical matters such as feelings. All I can do is go within and try to “feel” what is true and perhaps listen to what is being said to me.

I will only ask you to report on what you can actually feel in the moment.
(Periodically, I may ask you to draw from memory, but that will be rare)

I will try to stop dragging things from mind and memory and concentrate on the present moment and my feelings within to find the truth.

Exactly.
You don't even have to "concentrate." Just set awareness on the present moment as it is felt by the senses.

It's just that easy.

You up for it?

Best,

Kevin

[Johnw]

Hi Kevin
Thanks for this. Yes-I'm up for it. Look forward to hearing further from you-although it will be tomorrow before I reply. Had to deal with family stuff tonight.
Regards
John

[KevinD]

Hi John,

I hope your family is okay.

Okay, let's proceed, if you're up for it.

With you all set for speaking from direct experience, let's continue.

• Please explain from direct experience, how it is that this sense of I is just a thought.
  Please be specific and offer examples.
  
  
• When you sit in stillness, savoring this very moment, where is this I--this story of John--where does it exist.
  Describe it for me if you can.

Best,
Kevin

[Johnw]

Hi Kevin

Please explain from direct experience, how it is that this sense of I is just a thought.
Please be specific and offer examples.

I have well established to myself that “I” am not the body or the brain. My mind is all thought and when I go within to find “I”, I cannot find it. All I find are thoughts arising and disappearing again and “I” am one of those thoughts. My hands can grasp the desk but that is my body grasping – not “I”. All bodily functions happen mechanically without any input from “I”. So where is “I”? The word “I” keeps appearing in my head but I can’t find an objective “I”, just a body and a thought of “I”.

When you sit in stillness, savoring this very moment, where is this I--this story of John--where does it exist.
Describe it for me if you can.

In stillness there is a tightness in my stomach which I think is fear. More likely fear that I will fail to see clearly. The story of John exists as memory of past and present events which are now only thoughts, the totality of which makes up “John”. There are no thoughts of future since the future (if it existed) would not contribute to the totality of “John” in the present moment. There are also feelings from past events, and none of these are real. They are just sensations, some of which are good and some bad. But there is nothing I can grasp hold of or touch-they are all just thoughts and feelings which make me feel happy or sad.

Regards
John

[KevinD]

Hi John,

Most excellent.
This direct experience is exactly the fishing hole I want you using each time I ask you to observe.
Fear is here, that's actually a good sign.
The huge conceptual construct we've created will be a bit concerned that it will lose apparent control.
Let me know if that fear becomes unbearable, I can walk you through it.

So, off to experiencing.
Again, from direct experience:

• In direct experience, can you find an “I” that experiences experience?
• Is there a seer separate from the seen?
• Is there a hearer that hears?

[/b]


Thanks,

Kevin

[Johnw]

Hi Kevin

In direct experience, can you find an “I” that experiences experience?

No-I can’t find an “I”. There is only experiencing.

Is there a seer separate from the seen?

It is logical to think that the eyes look out onto the world and transmit information to the brain which then interprets what is happening but the interpretation depends on the knowledge that that brain has. For example, I may see a solar eclipse and know that the moon is travelling in front of the sun but an Asian tribesman may think it is an evil God about to destroy the planet. But that is all mind stuff because at the end of the day, I cannot find a seer – I can only understand that there is the seen because there is no “I”. The seen appears to be viewed on a screen in front of me and the screen is consciousness.

Is there a hearer that hears?

Again, it is logical to assume that the ears hear things and transmit to the brain for interpretation. I have tinnitus so there is a constant ringing in my head (not my ears) but it is only there when I think about it and acknowledge it. But I still cannot find an “I” which hears. There is only hearing.


Although I am writing the above, and it is genuinely from direct experience (I am spending hours going within to find the “I”), it is not fully reinforced yet-but "I" am getting there!

Thanks again for your time.

Regards
John.

[KevinD]

Great answers, John,

It was apparent it was mostly coming from direct experience.
(The tribesman analogy was an interesting story.)

I think we're clear to look at controlling and what is apparent doing that.


Here is an interesting exercise on control.

Take a look at this video first (just the delivery, the Q and A is interesting, but not critical.

http://youtu.be/ih6f-0T2Ow0

Select one of your arms - It doesn't matter which.
When you have done that, rest for a moment and then when you want to, raise that arm into the air (or don't).
Examine the actual experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire…

• What is this 'I' that is controlling the arm?
• Can a controlling 'I' be located?
• What is this 'I' that is choosing which arm to raise?
• Can you find an 'I' that is doing the choosing?
• How is decision made?

[/b]

This one might take some more time (or not).
Take the time you need to examine it carefully. Once again, in direct experience.

Nice work,

Kevin

[Johnw]

Hi Kevin

The You Tube video was interesting. It is confirming that if there is no free will, then life is just being lived through us. He confirmed that thoughts arise from consciousness.

Interesting exercise.

What is this 'I' that is controlling the arm?

There is no "I" controlling the arm.

Can a controlling 'I' be located?

I cannot locate a controlling "I".

What is this 'I' that is choosing which arm to raise?
Can you find an 'I' that is doing the choosing?

To do your exercise, reading of your post occurs. The thought arises that I should raise my arm......and my arm just lifts! I am not sure if the thought instructs my brain which in turn instructs my arm to raise by electric impulses to my arm. I really don't know enough about the operation of the brain but it probably isn't important just now. The fact is that it is thought which is lifting the arm and thoughts arise from consciousness therefore consciousness is raising my arm. All actions must come from consciousness since no "I" exists.

How is decision made?

Decision is made by thoughts which arise from consciousness so I suppose that inevitably the decisions are made by consciousness. They are certainly not made by an "I" since I cannot a find an "I".

Look forward to hearing from you.
Regards
John

[KevinD]

Hi John,

I really don't know enough about the operation of the brain but it probably isn't important just now.

That's just fine.
We can drive a car without knowing how to build one. As you point out, thoughts arise, action occurs, knowing more than that is not critical.

The fact is that it is thought which is lifting the arm and thoughts arise from consciousness therefore consciousness is raising my arm. All actions must come from consciousness since no "I" exists.

Interesting.
So, consciousness operates with distant volition like some God overseeing all?
Check in with direct experience and determine whether that is really true.
Report back.

Decision is made by thoughts which arise from consciousness so I suppose that inevitably the decisions are made by consciousness. They are certainly not made by an "I" since I cannot a find an "I".

Just because we have determined there is no I creating this doesn't mean we have to heap it on consciousness.
Isn't it possible that these actions just occur?

Best,
Kevin

[Johnw]

Hi Kevin
I am struggling with this one. There seems to be a blockage and I haven't been able to get through it. My direct experience tells me that everything just happens but my mind still wants me to believe that there is a creator of some kind-consciousness, awareness, being, God or whatever name one wants to give it. If there is no creator, what is this all about? I know that we probably will never know what consciousness is, but there is a comfort in knowing that there is some reason or purpose behind all of this-even if we will never know what it is.
I look at the natural world and marvel at the complexity and intricacy of it from the tiniest insect to the largest mammal and cannot believe that it all came about by accident after the Big Bang. Am I just supposed to accept what is, marvel at it and not be curious as to where it all came from?
I have read the pages in the LU App on my iPad and I know the answer that you want me to give but I would not be honest if I did not tell you about this blockage.
If "these actions just occur" as suggested by you, then how is that possible?
Or do we forget these lines of enquiry and accept that "this is all there is"? Trouble for me is that I don't feel that.
I know that this is mind stuff- 3 steps forward and 2 back! But can't help it. Going within and looking at it from direct experience is not giving me an answer?
Anything else i can do?
Regards
John

[KevinD]

Hi John,

No huge deal here.
Quite common that the mind wants to jump in and take over.
Let's drop back and just look from direct experience. The mind is excused.

Is there a separate I in control of anything?
Or are things just happening?

Thanks,

Kevin

[Johnw]

Hi Kevin
Thanks for reply. I am satisfied that there is no separate "I" in control of anything and that things are just happening. I know this from direct experience.
Regards
John