spacious sky requesting support

[spaciousness]

Hi Allen

yes, "no self" is not a thing or an experience...it is an absence...got it...
all that lands well. thank you, allen

But did my satement come as some surprise? Given that you thought 'no self' was some state or entity that could be 'aware'? Doesn't my view contradict yours in rather a big way? What changed for you to accept what I say about this?

But it just isn't good enough to simply accept my insistence, because it might not be true. The important thing is for you to investigate, to see for yourself if what I say has any truth. Is there really no 'self'? Are you ready to do this?



Best wishes,

Jon

Hi Jon:

But did my satement come as some surprise?

no. it was not a surprise....a reminder....i had an experience a few times in this life where the absence of self was totally clear and evident....one time that awareness showed up....i went into a very deep grief for a few minutes and then into complete elation seeing the light, a life force shining around everything...it lasted a few days and then got caught up in the busyness of life again and forgot it...then 4 years ago i experienced the absence of self completely and then it was actually so profound and impactful and just laid in bed for a couple of days experiencing at a deep level throughout the mind/body and beyond that "I" did not exist....i kept on saying "i am not this career, i am not this relationship, i am not anything i thought i was. afterwards an insight showed up that "i" am dead, i had thought i was someone, then realized "i" was no one, and then felt like "i" was everyone. life showed up very differently after that and i actually had quite a challenging time re-integrating back into the day to day. that experience

Given that you thought 'no self' was some state or entity that could be 'aware'? Doesn't my view contradict yours in rather a big way? What changed for you to accept what I say about this?

that thought was just a passing thought that i shared in the moment in.....your view is what i experienced a few times and periodically experience...when you stated your view....it reminded me of those past experiences and recognized that the thought that no self was a state was incorrect. sometimes when the experience of no self is really present, i sense a feeling of emptiness and depression. other times i sense a deep peace, relaxation of all effort, with no motivation, no desire and concern that there is something wrong with "me" then.... does this make any sense?

i sometimes joke with my friends and say "I used to think i was someone, then realized i was no one and then realized i am everyone". the experience of "no one" vacillates between sadness, feeling lost, depression, angst and then deep quiet peace. the sense of being everyone, there is a feeling of love and compassion for all that show up. does this make sense?

through our dialogue, i woke up this morning remembering a vivid dream watching my life as a "woody allen" like movie and watching it all roll by laughing at it all....

thank you for helping me with this. by writing this to you, it forces me to write down these deeper thoughts and questions....
allen

[JonathanR]

Hi Allen,

You quoted my entire post. That isn't necessary.

thank you for helping me with this. by writing this to you, it forces me to write down these deeper thoughts and questions....
allen

Good. You are welcome.

If you look for 'I' or 'self' now, is one found? If so, where is it appearing? In the body? In thought?


If you are saying that it is not possible to find a 'self' anywhere in experience, how do things like decisions or choices get made? What about Free Will?



Regards,

Jon

[spaciousness]

hi jon: i am not sure how to quote just one segment. i thought i was. sorry.
looking for i or self....no where to be found at the moment.
i am experiencing that decisions or choices simply show up....
ah....free will???? yes, becoming more aware that free will is an illusion. choices are either made based on previous programming or does free will just unfold?
thank you, allen

[spaciousness]

free will is something i have pondered often....destiny? free will? simply life unfolding? when choices are made, who is making the choice? where are the answers coming from? thoughts?

[JonathanR]

Hi Allen,

free will is something i have pondered often....destiny? free will? simply life unfolding? when choices are made, who is making the choice? where are the answers coming from? thoughts?

Good questions. Here is an exercise that may help to explore what is happening with 'choice':

Place both hands on a table in front of you,palm down. In a moment you will raise one hand in the air but not the other. Try to find the exact moment of choice, the choice-point, where one hand is raised but not the other.

Tell me how it goes.


Regards,

Jon

[spaciousness]

Hi Jon:
thank you for that exercise...

the choice point seems to happen nanoseconds before i am conscious of it. in neuroscience by the way, they find that choices show up in the "subconscious" milliseconds before the choice is consciously made
....so that was my exact experience.
...so what does that mean via lu? where is the choice coming from? from the subconscious? from awareness beyond the limited physical/mental "i" programming? as my experiences have unfolded, i sense that when i am not in the programmed i, there is an experience of beyond the beyond and that perhaps that is where choice unfolds from...does that make sense? thank you for your assistance, blessings, allen

[JonathanR]

Hi Allen,

the choice point seems to happen nanoseconds before i am conscious of it. in neuroscience by the way, they find that choices show up in the "subconscious" milliseconds before the choice is consciously made
....so that was my exact experience.

That's interesting. You say the choice point seems to happen slightly before you are conscious of it? But if it cannot be noticed as it happens, isn't your exact experience that it cannot be noticed happening at all?

Please try this again and this time is it possible to notice the choice point happening before or as one hand is reaised?


Regards,

Jon.

[spaciousness]

yes. definitely....

[JonathanR]

Did you repeat the experiemnt or did you rely on memory of it for your answer?

What about what I said?...

You say the choice point seems to happen slightly before you are conscious of it? But if it cannot be noticed as it happens, isn't your exact experience that it cannot be noticed happening at all?

Do you see? try it again and see if it is possible to notice the exact choice point. If it isn't possible to notice when the choice is made one can speculate and turn to neuroscience for an explanation. But we are checking actual experience. What is the actual experience? You said it yourself... 'the choice point seems to happen nanoseconds before i am conscious of it'. Then is it true to say that it had actually been seen as it happened?

Jon

[spaciousness]

great question Jon. actually, it actually was not seen when it happened. it was the explanatory thought in my mind that presupposed that i was aware of the exact moment of choice...so, no, it does not seem that i was actually aware of the moment of choice....thank you for clarifying that with me.

[JonathanR]

Hi Allen,

great question Jon. actually, it actually was not seen when it happened. it was the explanatory thought in my mind that presupposed that i was aware of the exact moment of choice...so, no, it does not seem that i was actually aware of the moment of choice....thank you for clarifying that with me.

Thank you. All our investigations will be like this; looking for the actual experience rather than to conventional explanations or thoughts ABOUT what is assumned to be going on. This is the beauty of this inquiry into no self. It doesn't have to be taken on trust.

You have said that it is clear to you that there is no self. But how about the 'chooser' now? Tell me if you still feel that there is 'someone' 'making choices'? We can look more at this. It is important not to move on if this isn't clear.

Best,

Jon

[spaciousness]

Hi Jon:
"Tell me if you still feel that there is 'someone' 'making choices'?" .....wow....this is really a good question...i guess i still do feel "someone" is making choices....i.e. i was about to close my practice in december and was convinced that it was time and then my new accountant talked me out of it. ever since, it has been nothing but problems and minimal income. i then ask why did i not close it when i felt i should have...i come up with many justifications for why...but...
ok....who made that decision??? i could use some guidance and insight on something like that.....
in addition, my girlfriend moved in despite my preference that she has her own place....this too has been challenging.
so who made those choices? there is a part of me that senses, that the choice/ decision was not mine and cam from somewhere else...yet, there is part that i question why i made those choices....thank you for your guidance with this....blessings, allen

[JonathanR]

Hi Allen,

I understand about the examples of 'choice' or 'decision' that you mention. These are interesting but a litte too open to speculation to be of use in the search for a 'chooser'. For one thing these are 'past' events and it is a lot more revealing to look at present examples of 'choosing', right here and now. These provide an opportuntity for looking at the event as it actually happens, rather than in memory, which is thoughts about the past. Do you see why this is important?

Looking again at 'choosing' and also at 'deciding' try this

Go and make a hot drink. Once you have made one, come back and read the following questions...Don't read ahead!.

When legs moved in the direction of the kitchen did someone 'decide' how they should move?

Was there one controling the exact placement of feet and adjusting weight and movement in order to make 'walking' happen?

Was a 'decision' noticed to turn on the kettle or pull milk from the fridge? Or did these things just happen?

Was a particular type of drink 'chosen' or did that just happen in the course of events?


This kind of investiagtion can be done very effectively with driving. Next time you go for a drive, see if there is someone continually 'making decisions' about the driving, or whether the multitude of events that take place throughout a car journey are happening without a 'controller'?


Best wishes,

Jon

[spaciousness]

yes, i see....it all does just happen.....

[JonathanR]

Hi Allen,

yes, i see....it all does just happen.....

Did you try this investigation?

Do you find this applies to other events in life? Can you give some examples, from experience, in which 'choices' and 'decisions' occur? What makes things happen?

Jon.