The Gate

What is there without the labeling of the bottle? There's nothing. It's only thought that tells me what it is. If I reach out and touch it, there's a sensation. But that the sensation is 'solid' or 'cold' is still only a thought.

Yes, true, its only a thought... Lets look again...
I have a colourful stone on my desk. You are right, its only thought that tells me that this is a stone and that I am looking at it. Now, if I wouldn't know that this is a stone I would only see some colours in certain shapes, right? Its a thought process that matches these shapes and colours to "Thats a stone!".
"Colours in certain shapes" is basically as far as we can go with thought, right? It is also what our visual perception delivers - some colours (even the shapes are already thought). That these are "colours" is also a thought, right, but we have to use a label otherwise there would be nothing to talk about.
So just colour... Is "seeing" any different from "colour"? Or are they one and the same?

You can do the same with hearing... You listen and hear a bird, but what is effectively there is just sound, right?
Is there a difference between "hearing" and "sound"? You might say, yes, for sure, I do the hearing OF the sound...
But: Is that really the case? What do you find in the direct experience of hearing? Is there an I hearing a sound? Or is there only sound? Is there an I seeing colours?

It does seem like there's some kind of a gap, some kind of a space that 'looking at water bottle' is done in that is beyond thought, but it's also only a thought that tells me that. There is something there though, Alex, that disappears as soon as I try to describe it. It's pretty reliable, I've done it several times now. As soon as I try to put words around it, it's gone, or different anyway.

Yes, "the gap" that is observable is also only a thought... But you are right, the process of recognition and conceptualisation adds a subjective point of view to the otherwise neutral perception of... this, life, experience... however we would like to call it... how does that make you feel?

Hi Andrea,
are you still interested in continuing this dialogue?
Regards,
Alex

Yes, I am. I tried to post back yesterday, but must not have done it right. It took me a few days to notice that we had moved to a second page. I'll respond to your latest questions later today, or tomorrow morning. Thanks for asking :)
Andrea

OK, no problem.

Hi Alex,

I have a colourful stone on my desk. You are right, its only thought that tells me that this is a stone and that I am looking at it.

So just colour... Is "seeing" any different from "colour"? Or are they one and the same?]

They must be the same, Alex, as they both only exist in thought. Anything that would make them different would also be thought.

Yes, "the gap" that is observable is also only a thought... But you are right, the process of recognition and conceptualisation adds a subjective point of view to the otherwise neutral perception of... this, life, experience... however we would like to call it... how does that make you feel?

For some reason it makes me feel a little trapped. It makes me feel like I can never know what the world really is, because I can never see it without seeing from my point of view. It makes me want to find a way to do that, a way past or beyond or previous to my point of view.

I struggle with this with my recent breakup, to put all of this theory into my own life somehow. I can see the stories I'm telling myself that make myself sad sometimes, but they seem so real. And I know they're not. But something has to be real, something really happened. And I have no access to it, I'll never know what really happened, because my thoughts are just stories about what happened, and I can't think about it without my thoughts. That's the trap I'm talking about.

Thank you for doing this with me Alex.
Andrea

For some reason it makes me feel a little trapped.

Yes... it makes you feel trapped... Thats actually good! :-)
What is the "you" that feels trapped?

And I have no access to it, I'll never know what really happened, because my thoughts are just stories about what happened, and I can't think about it without my thoughts.

Again... who is the thinker of thought? Is there one?
Who wants to know and once you do know what is the difference to before?

It makes me feel like I can never know what the world really is, because I can never see it without seeing from my point of view. It makes me want to find a way to do that, a way past or beyond or previous to my point of view.

Is there a difference between "you" and your "point of view"? Aren't they one and the same?
Both just conceptual thought that says that there even is a point of view..?

When you look at the world, what you see is how it really is. You just apply a layer of concepts on top of it and then believe in the reality of these concepts... Thats the only problem. By now you see that they are all just concepts, don't you? But you expect them to go away and then being left with "reality". Is this what you expect? A life without all concepts "in reality"?
Lets think about that, how would that be like..? Not knowing what this body is, not recognising a tree, a car, your home..? Wouldn't it be better to still have the benefit of all these concepts, but at the same time have the understanding that this is all they are? Nothing substantial, just a description of "parts of reality"...

Yes... it makes you feel trapped... Thats actually good! :-)
What is the "you" that feels trapped?

As far as I can tell, it's just another story, just another concept. Trapped is not real, or it's only as real as the thoughts that created it, and 'I' is the same. Just another story, just another concept, only as real as thought.

Who wants to know and once you do know what is the difference to before?

OH! Really good question, Alex. The 'who' that wants to know is only a thought, or a bunch of thoughts. But what is the difference... I want it to get better! I want it to be different! There's something here, let's me see if I can say it.

I don't like what happened. I want it to be different, I don't think it should have gone the way it did. At the same time, I see the insanity of that. It can only have gone the way it went. No matter how many times I think back on what happened and think 'I should have done this' or 'He should have done that', it will never impact what happened. I know that, of course I see that. But I still want it to be different. I'm using this, to get to what is 'real' because I think I might like that better, it might be more in my favor, it might be a way out of the pain and the obsession and the reoccurring thoughts that I seem to have no control over.

Is there a difference between "you" and your "point of view"? Aren't they one and the same?
Both just conceptual thought that says that there even is a point of view..?

At first glance it seems like there is a difference. I think that I have some control, some facility around my point of view. I've done so much work in this area, Alex. Looking at my stories, accepting that conflict with someone is just really a conflicting point of view, which is variable and can be changed. But...looking at my direct experience, coming back to just that... there is no difference. My point of view is a thought. All of it, the whole thing, including the 'my' in that sentence. There is nothing without a thought. I can see the insanity of all of it, how I just said I seem to have no control over my thoughts, but I think I have control over my point of view, and this whole thinking thing is starting to make less rational sense. How can you (or I) be rational, if I don't have any control over the thoughts I think, if I can't think things through, if all there is are thoughts occurring.

By now you see that they are all just concepts, don't you? But you expect them to go away and then being left with "reality". Is this what you expect? A life without all concepts "in reality"?

Yes, that's exactly what I was expecting. Not for all of them to go away, of course I would like to keep the ones that are helpful, like 'door' and 'tree' and 'paying the bills'. But I want the painful concepts to go away. Let's get rid of those, please.

Lets think about that, how would that be like..? Not knowing what this body is, not recognising a tree, a car, your home..? Wouldn't it be better to still have the benefit of all these concepts, but at the same time have the understanding that this is all they are? Nothing substantial, just a description of "parts of reality"...

Yes, obviously that would be better. Life would be totally unworkable otherwise. So let me put it in my own words and see if I understand.

The curtains that I am looking at our real. What I'm calling them, 'curtains' is just a thought. Some of the thoughts I have about the curtain are real... well they are all real thoughts. But some of the thoughts that I have are accurate, like 'I can open them'. And some are not, like 'I need new ones' - I've been thinking that thought for years but I still have the same curtains. Is it like that?

So, Jeff is real. That I spent time with him and that I knew him, and that he said certain things and I said certain things, that's all real. That we should still be together is just a story. I know that. I've know that all along, thus 'breaking my own heart' - right?

Ok, I just reread what I said about the curtains. I think I'm off a little here. Last time I tried to open the curtains it worked, but I don't really know that it will work again until I try it. So that makes 'I can open the curtains' equal to 'I need new ones' - both are just thoughts.

I think this is good. I'm really confused.
Andrea

Andrea

As far as I can tell, it's just another story, just another concept. Trapped is not real, or it's only as real as the thoughts that created it, and 'I' is the same. Just another story, just another concept, only as real as thought

Yes, spot on!

How can you (or I) be rational, if I don't have any control over the thoughts I think, if I can't think things through, if all there is are thoughts occurring.

Yes, good question... It seems impossible for there to be rational thoughts, logical conclusions and all this order that seems to prevail... but is all of that really the case? When is a thought rational? When is a conclusion logical? When is something in order? Aren't all of them, rational, logical and orderly, exclusively based on your definition of these terms? If you don't define rational than what? As long as you define it you can draw a line between rational and not rational, but the line is arbitrary at best...
When you "think things through" you come to a conclusion, but what is the base of this conclusion? How do you get there? Isn't your conclusion in most cases exactly the conclusion, or answer to a problem, that you would like to see? The conclusion rarely will be something that you don't like, will it? Nor can it be something that you don't know, that you have not learned before.
Do you think that conclusions, that are always in your favour, are really conclusions or are they just wishful thinking?
I am not saying that you shouldn't plan ahead, think things through and come to a conclusion - what I am saying is that you shouldn't expect a fixed outcome. Take it as it comes and don't get too upset if your wish did not materialise...

Yes, that's exactly what I was expecting. Not for all of them to go away, of course I would like to keep the ones that are helpful, like 'door' and 'tree' and 'paying the bills'. But I want the painful concepts to go away. Let's get rid of those, please.

Haha... yes, lets get rid of the crap and keep the good stuff... Is there "good stuff" without the opposite? How do you define "good" if there is no "bad"?
How about you keep them all, good and bad, but simply see them for what they are?

Last time I tried to open the curtains it worked, but I don't really know that it will work again until I try it. So that makes 'I can open the curtains' equal to 'I need new ones' - both are just thoughts.

Yes, both are just thoughts and you won't know if it works before you try... Buts thats not really the point, the point is that "you" live in a thought world full of concepts - the you itself is a conceptual structure, nothing more. Without thought do you have space, time, subject and objects?

I am not saying that there is only thought and nothing else exists, but can you find another tool that you can use to make sense of this experience?

Now... why not use this understanding and apply it to your daily life? How would that look like? What would change for you?

When is a thought rational? When is a conclusion logical? When is something in order? Aren't all of them, rational, logical and orderly, exclusively based on your definition of these terms? If you don't define rational than what? As long as you define it you can draw a line between rational and not rational, but the line is arbitrary at best...

Yes, I can see that. Completely based on my definition, arbitrary at best, and completely personal. As in my definitions are not exactly the same as yours, although mostly I assume that they are.

Do you think that conclusions, that are always in your favour, are really conclusions or are they just wishful thinking?
I am not saying that you shouldn't plan ahead, think things through and come to a conclusion - what I am saying is that you shouldn't expect a fixed outcome. Take it as it comes and don't get too upset if your wish did not materialise...

Yes, I can see the wishful thinking. What I don't understand is where I get this control (don't get too upset) over how I feel about my wishes not materializing. It seems to me that 'upset' is just another set of thoughts, another concept, and I have not been able to find where or how this is controlled, Alex. I understand the idea of taking it as it comes, but in my experience I take it as I take it. The best I've been able to find is to distract myself.

Today I was shopping and a song came on the PA system of the store I was in that took me right back to last summer when we were together and happy. Tears sprang up in my eyes! There wasn't even time to have a thought first, other than 'oh I know this song'. I was TOO upset, too upset for as long as we've been apart, too upset for a public place. So I distracted myself with really looking at the carpet, really using my sense of smell,I was trying to distract myself with being present. Or are you saying that the realization of all of my dreams for the future with him were nothing more than wishful thinking is what will keep me from being 'too upset'? Or am I missing the boat entirely? The more I type the more I think that is the case.
Andrea

Hi Andrea,

What I don't understand is where I get this control (don't get too upset) over how I feel about my wishes not materializing.

Good question... do you have control over it? Or is the only control, that you seem to have, the seemingly pre-destined outcome of "I am upset!" ?

So I distracted myself with really looking at the carpet, really using my sense of smell,I was trying to distract myself with being present.

Ok, this is not a bad practice, I would even recommend you to try to be consciously present all the time (or as much as you can). When you drop back into thought world you will eventually have a thought "Ahh.. I was lost again...". Try to practice this as much as you can and you will be able to catch these thoughts that generate the "sad state" much quicker. When a song comes up you will see what thought says about and see that it is just a thought. You can not control this thought, you can not keep it from arising, but by simply seeing that it is just a thought you remove its power. Chains of thought will become shorter and your "sad state" will be gone very fast. It is only thought based.

Before we continue with this inquiry, have a look at why you are here at LU. What is the main reason for this quest?
Happiness? Forget, or rather to be able to control, unwanted thoughts? Disconnect from this "I/self" and find a "higher one" that stands above all these human problems? What exactly are you looking for? Who is it that wants these things?

Before we continue with this inquiry, have a look at why you are here at LU. What is the main reason for this quest?
Happiness? Forget, or rather to be able to control, unwanted thoughts? Disconnect from this "I/self" and find a "higher one" that stands above all these human problems? What exactly are you looking for? Who is it that wants these things?

That's a tough question, Alex, because everything that would answer it is a thought. And those thoughts all start with 'I'. And I know there's something else, there's another way to live, a different way to look at things. I'm still looking to see what I haven't seen before, and I can't tell you what that is exactly. I think that all that you suggested is impractical, if not impossible. Not that I would turn it down, if I could stand above all of these human problems, control my thoughts and my mood and never be sad again, or even in love again. That's not what we're doing here though. I'm not sure what we're doing, or where it will go, but I'm open.
Andrea

Yes its a bit of a though question, sorry, but I just wanted to see what your expectations are. If you don't have any, great, I just wanted to make sure you are not looking for everlasting peace, bliss and happiness, great spiritual experiences or specific states of being.
One of the main defence systems of this thought structure is the expectation of some great spiritual experience - before that "I" will not believe that there is no "me"... sounds crazy, doesn't it..?

I'm not sure what we're doing, or where it will go, but I'm open.

Well, what we are doing here is trying to make people see that this separate I/self that they believe controls their life is really nothing more than a thought. That there is no separate entity there at all and that it is all just something that we have learned since early childhood.
We do this by honestly looking at our direct experience and analysing what we find. Yes, for sure, it is again just thought making sense of what we find... there is no other tool to do that, is there? But what has been learned can be unlearned... still, this might take time to sink in. It doesn't mean that you will "stand above all of these human problems", they will still be there, but you might be able to see some (or most?) of them as just another thought-story and move on quicker without getting worried too much...

Anyway, what LU is really about is to trigger this realisation: I am not this separate I/self; it is just a thought!; I don't control all these things that happen in my life; It certainly seems so, but when closely looked at there is no controlling entity there at all...

I looks like you have seen that, but you wait for a magical experience to happen, or your problems to dissolve into thin air, to confirm that you have understood... Also, this is not the final step in a journey, its rather the start of seeing yourself and the world in a different light...

It now might appear to you that there is no magic bullet to solve all these human problems, the sadness and the suffering, but that is only the case because the "you" that is now disappointed wants to continue existing (even it doesn't exist outside of thought anyway). It wants to continue, but in a happier state, as a happier you. Do you think this "I/self" can ever be happy and at peace? It is only a thought and has no control over what is being thought. How could this "I/self" ever stabilise in a peaceful state? The next thought might be "I am so unhappy..." and it all starts again...

Do you see that this separate I/self exists only as thought? When you look at choice and decisions, can you find an "you" that makes them? Do you think when "you" don't make them, nothing is going to happen? How does it make you feel that life is not in your control, but that rather life living you?

One of the main defence systems of this thought structure is the expectation of some great spiritual experience - before that "I" will not believe that there is no "me"... sounds crazy, doesn't it..?

No, I don't have any expectations of that, Alex. I totally get the idea of no 'I' - I'm not sure I really 'believe' it though, as any thing other than an intellectual excercise. If I have an expectation, its that I will somehow experience something that will let me see that I 'believe' - maybe this is what is holding me back?

Do you see that this separate I/self exists only as thought? When you look at choice and decisions, can you find an "you" that makes them? Do you think when "you" don't make them, nothing is going to happen? How does it make you feel that life is not in your control, but that rather life living you?

It's not the first time I've heard this concept, Alex. I'm not sure how to have a direct experience of it, except for to keep watching and notice when it happens. Or maybe this is one... I take a shower every morning. Frequently I notice that I'm out of the shower, with no recollection of the thought 'I'm getting out now' or any thought at all, just in the shower one minute, and out of it the next. I don't feel like if I don't make a decision nothing will happen. In fact, I think the opposite is more true. It doesn't matter what decision I make, things will happen as they are going to happen regardless. Sometimes it lines up with my decision (I've 'decided' to go on a trip this weekend, and it looks like we're really going to go) and sometimes it doesn't (I decided to marry Jeff, and then he broke up with me). It's actually a much more peaceful experience to not be in control and let things unfold as they might.

Andrea

I totally get the idea of no 'I' - I'm not sure I really 'believe' it though

Lets have a look at beliefs. What exactly are they and how do they work...
First you don't have a belief, then you learn something and it turns into a belief. You were told that Santa exists and brings you presents, but only if you believe in him, right? So there is a certain benefit in believing and the thought "Santa brings presents, he is real as the presents are real!" turns into a belief. Now most of us believe that there is a separate "I/me" that owns this body and decides what to do. You were told, if you don't eat that, then you will get sick, if you don't learn, then you will not pass the test, if you want something, then you have to do something specific for it... etc etc... So... You "decide" to do something so you get something... Or didn't you decide and it was only conditioning being built..?
The idea of your own free will and the concept of being responsible for your life and actions is drilled into you. How else should it be? You are responsible! Aren't you?

I'm not sure how to have a direct experience of it, except for to keep watching and notice when it happens.

Well, yes, thats how you can do it. Look and see what you find and then compare it with thought about it... Does it match?

Even when you are perfectly sure that you made a decision, check how it came to be... You will always find a certain trigger that was not in your power that triggered a certain thought, mood or experience. How come you booked the trip next weekend? Did you see an ad on TV, did someone call you, did you suddenly have to picture of a nice beach in your head and the next thought was "Lets have a holiday!"... See if you can find the start of the chain. Was there an "I/self" that decided to book a trip for next weekend?

It's actually a much more peaceful experience to not be in control and let things unfold as they might.

Yes, it sure is :-)
There might be some fear of letting go, but as there was never a chooser/decider anyway... what would change?
Also, don't "make the decision" to, from now on, simply "let things unfold" and not do anything anymore. To consciously make no decision anymore... This would only be another conditioning, overriding the old one, now the "no more decisions" conditioning... Simply go on as before, make your decision, but know that its not really you making them :-)

I'm out of town now, Alex, I'll create a longer reply when I get back on Sunday. I'm noticing how I make decisions, it's pretty fascinating.