Hello

[Andrei]

I was sitting wondering, did I want to go to the barn (I have horses) and bring the horses some carrots and turn the fans off, or wait. I decided to go and do those things. Other times, for example I was doing some things in the yard and the actions where just happening.

So thoughts just happen independent of a manager.
In your first case scenario you were paying attention to your thoughts. In the second you weren`t.
How do you know "conscious" choices are not "unconscious" choices which simply happen at the moment you focus your attention on your thinking process? Because if thats the case you`re not really deciding anything, you`re simply paying attention to an action happening behind your eyes, in contrast with not paying attention.

Is this what you mean by direct experience?

Direct experience is when you`re being observant to your thoughts, feelings, sensations.
Indirect experience is when you start to think too much, or to weave a story about them, or judge them based on your programming, or desires, etc.

Direct experience is life. Indirect experience is life seen through the filter of the mind. Hope that makes sense. Let me know if not.

What about identification with thoughts? How do you know if identification is not just another function of the body/mind that simply HAPPENS?

Good point-I don't know if it is just happening-now that you point it out-maybe it is jut happening as well....

You need to see this. I can point the way but you alone can go further.
You need to see this and it has to be clear. If it`s just a maybe then its probably the mind speaking.

Identification is related to thoughts (and maybe feelings as well but we`ll speak about them later).
Thoughts appear in your head, in your brain. They are a function of the brain (if a brain is damaged then the capacity of having thoughts can be compromised)
If identification is made of thoughts, can we say identification is just another bodily function?

(my logic can be a bit flawed here but the point is not really whether identification is a bodily function but whether identification simply HAPPENS just like thoughts HAPPEN)

I have not been able to figure out this site and how to respond. It seems I figure something out and then try and do it again and it does not work.

I`ll tell you how I do it. I write my answer in a text file and when I want to put in quotes i simply write the code for quotes and paste the text in between, something like {quote}text{/quote} but with square brackets instead. Here`s a print screen: http://i.snag.gy/tZ3s4.jpg

But feel free to use what suits you better. You can colour text instead of putting it in quotes if its easier, or use italic or bold.

Could I ask that you only respond with a couple of thing so that I can respond to everything without having to spend so much time trying to figure out how to transfer your quotes, etc.?

Im following some guidelines and Im trying not to ask too many questions at once, not starting new topics if the previous ones are not clear, but if you write more things in a post that I feel we should look into Im going to ask all at once because otherwise important things might get side tracked :)
Of course you can answer them in your own time.

[karenwill]

How do you know "conscious" choices are not "unconscious" choices which simply happen at the moment you focus your attention on your thinking process?

Good point. I am not sure now if things are happening and I turn my focus at the moment they happen as you are saying. If that is the case, it would feel very freeing….How do I know which is happening?

Direct experience is life. Indirect experience is life seen through the filter of the mind. Hope that makes sense. Let me know if not.

Thanks-I understand now.

If identification is made of thoughts, can we say identification is just another bodily function?

Yes. Are we talking about the identification of the thoughts? or the self? or both?

Thanks for the suggestions on quotes. I have figured some things out and now I am able to focus more on my response and less on trying to understand the logistics of using this site.

[Andrei]

How do you know "conscious" choices are not "unconscious" choices which simply happen at the moment you focus your attention on your thinking process?

Good point. I am not sure now if things are happening and I turn my focus at the moment they happen as you are saying. If that is the case, it would feel very freeing….How do I know which is happening?

Well i dont know how to explain it better than this. Let me share you how it was in my case, maybe it helps. Once presented with the 2 options - picking either the coffee or tea, I cleared my head and used direct experience. I felt an urge from somewhere inside of me, an urge not caused by reasoning (ie. pick coffee when you feel sleepy, pick tea because its more healthy) to just go for one of them, lets say the tea. And voila.
(A) The choice simply happened without the presence of an "I" to make the choice.
(B) I was conscious at the time, focusing on the exercise
(C) There was no thinking involved
All of the above was unquestionable proof that choosing happens independent of a "me". And that is to be applied in all domains, much larger than tea vs. coffee - choosing your studies, choosing your hobbies, choosing your spouse, choosing everything.
Everything just happens and then the "I"/ego/personality/mind hijacks it and says "I did that"

Lets try another exercise (which is from the Enlightening quotes app. You can also read it here http://www.1ness.info/eq.htm or download it to your smartphone, etc)

Raise your right arm (or don’t). In that process of raising the right arm or not, a decision is made, or at least something happens (or doesn’t). But can you pinpoint the actual moment of choice and find the actual entity that appears to be making that choice? In direct experience, can that moment of choice, that apparent chooser, actually be found? Or does the idea “I just chose to (not) raise my right arm” come after the event itself?

If identification is made of thoughts, can we say identification is just another bodily function?

Yes. Are we talking about the identification of the thoughts? or the self? or both?

We`re talking about identifying your self as the creator of thoughts, emotions, sensations, karma, destiny, pancakes, everything the "I" takes credit for.
But start with thoughts. You see thoughts floating in and out of your awareness. You can see they are not created by you, they dont have a manager. They just appear in your awareness... At one point (usually when you get lost in the thoughts) something else happens. You start to feel like you identify with the thoughts. They are YOUR thoughts. Then you take a step back and you realize you became identified with them. How did that happen? If the thoughts just appear in your awareness and the process of identification includes those thoughts, can you say that the process of identification simply happens as well, independent of the existence of an "I"/ego/mind/personality?

And then apply that technique to everything else the "I" takes credit for- your emotions, your feelings, your name, your property, your horses, your destiny, your whole life. Just the I-thought coming to hijack objects and situations and calling its own.

[karenwill]

Raise your right arm (or don’t). In that process of raising the right arm or not, a decision is made, or at least something happens (or doesn’t). But can you pinpoint the actual moment of choice and find the actual entity that appears to be making that choice? In direct experience, can that moment of choice, that apparent chooser, actually be found? Or does the idea “I just chose to (not) raise my right arm” come after the event itself?

There is nothing making the choice. When I look, there is nothing there and yet I did move my arm. I am not able to find an apparent chooser. I think the choice happened before the event and then the event happened.

We`re talking about identifying your self as the creator of thoughts, emotions, sensations, karma, destiny, pancakes, everything the "I" takes credit for.
But start with thoughts. You see thoughts floating in and out of your awareness. You can see they are not created by you, they dont have a manager. They just appear in your awareness... At one point (usually when you get lost in the thoughts) something else happens. You start to feel like you identify with the thoughts. They are YOUR thoughts. Then you take a step back and you realize you became identified with them.How did that happen? If the thoughts just appear in your awareness and the process of identification includes those thoughts, can you say that the process of identification simply happens as well, independent of the existence of an "I"/ego/mind/personality?

Yes, this whole process just seems to happen on it’s own. I see there is an “I” that thinks it is in charge. This “I” creates a lot of drama, peace or whatever-or rather it thinks that it is doing it all. I have been diving deeper into this idea, spending a lot of time asking “who is feeling this feeling, thinking this thought, etc. I am not able to find anything. My experience says there is nothing. I start getting confused as to what is here in a body, or what exactly is going on? Why is there even a body here? Actions taking place? What will be responsible and why are things happening if nothing is directing these things? I am not able to find anything behind all the happenings, and yet I am still wondering-why does anything happen if nothing is directing it? I also have this fear that for some reason I am not going to get this and will be stuck in the mind forever. Does this make sense?

Thanks for all your help with this. It seems like I get it, but then I forget and fall back into the drama of the "I/ego/mind". Why does this happen?

[Andrei]

First I read this:

There is nothing making the choice. When I look, there is nothing there and yet I did move my arm. I am not able to find an apparent chooser.

...and I`m like, great she can see, we can finally move on.
And then you add something like...

I think the choice happened before the event and then the event happened.

... and I`m like, "Wait, where did that came from?"

Ok lets talk about this some more. Please explain to me
(1) how exactly did you reach the conclusion that the choice happened before the event. On what facts do you base that affirmation
(2) when/if the choice happened before the event, WHO or what made the choice? How did it happen. Please explain the entire process, and
(3) what does that conclusion have to do with the direct experience I asked you to use, several times already. Where exactly is direct experience in there?

Yes, this whole process just seems to happen on it’s own. I see there is an “I” that thinks it is in charge. This “I” creates a lot of drama, peace or whatever-or rather it thinks that it is doing it all. I have been diving deeper into this idea, spending a lot of time asking “who is feeling this feeling, thinking this thought, etc. I am not able to find anything.

The quote above explains the whole process of liberation. You look for that which creates identification. You cant find it. Poof! Thats it

I start getting confused as to what is here in a body, or what exactly is going on? Why is there even a body here? Actions taking place? What will be responsible and why are things happening if nothing is directing these things? I am not able to find anything behind all the happenings, and yet I am still wondering-why does anything happen if nothing is directing it? I also have this fear that for some reason I am not going to get this and will be stuck in the mind forever. Does this make sense?

And this quote above shows you where the problem is. Instead of looking, you go back to thinking.
It reminds me of my non-dualistic past when I was trying to dissolve my mind by the use of mind. It doesn`t work. Every paths of the mind takes you back to the mind <-- somebody smart said that, some Jesus-Buddha-guru-whatever. However he is right. All the paths of the mind lead to blocking, to nihilism, to nothingness. Basically they take you nowhere.
In my case I was stuck at the awareness level. By using the mind I managed to digest all the thoughts, and the concepts and beliefs. However there was still something behind my eyes which seemed "personal". That presence inside of me (some call it awareness, other call it the Witness, others call it mind screen, etc) was like a block of matter. I couldnt get past that. It all seemed like a bullshit quote from one of Eckart Tolle - "Its all in the now", and other crap.
At one point I stopped the mind, closed my eyes, went to meditate, cleared my awareness of all expectations and in a matter of seconds I started to feel that presence, that block of matter starting to drift away. It was not solid anymore. It was more like a wave (and no I wasnt intoxicated with anything lol) of energy, like a dance of particles. Suddenly the block was no more, my awareness was no more, and I was an ocean. I know it sounds like cheap new age romance but it really happened like that. That was my turning point.
The whole problem is that I was focusing on the mind instead of seeing what IS.
When you put your attention on something you somehow create it, you give it strength, whether its ideas, beliefs, and probably even matter as they say in quantum mechanics.
Thats why I keep asking you to use only direct experience, like you did in that quote above this one.

So Im not sure where the block is for you. You might create something inside of you, like I did, by the use of your mind, in which case my advise is simple. Whenever a thought comes to your head, use direct experience on it and see what happens.

What will be responsible and why are things happening if nothing is directing these things?

What does "responsible" mean for you?
How can responsibility exist in the absence of somebody to be responsible about something?

I also have this fear that for some reason I am not going to get this and will be stuck in the mind forever.

It`s the mind that is worried, that its afraid of the unknown.

Thanks for all your help with this. It seems like I get it, but then I forget and fall back into the drama of the "I/ego/mind". Why does this happen?

First of all, even after liberation you will have moments when you drift away back into the "drama". Liberation is a process. At one point there will be a sudden realization of what IS and then it will get much easier in seeing the mind and the drama and getting out of it, or whatching it like you`d watch a bad movie you got bored of but theres nothing better on telly.
So whenever you fall back into the drama go back to DE.
ie: "I feel lonely" - Who is I? Who feels lonely? What is lonely? Is it a concept? A comparison? Oh, a thought. So im not really lonely Im just creating a state of mind by the use of thoughts and feelings.
"Im afraid". Who is I? What is fear? A sensation created by the body and reinforced by though?
...and so on and so fort

[karenwill]

(1) how exactly did you reach the conclusion that the choice happened before the event. On what facts do you base that affirmation

I sat in my chair and I asked from within, via a thought, do I want to raise my arm or not raise my arm. Then I decided to raise my arm via a thought, and so I did. This is how the choosing happened first and then the arm raising second.

2) when/if the choice happened before the event, WHO or what made the choice? How did it happen. Please explain the entire process, and

I have looked at this. I spent the day looking at all my choices, or rather looking for a something that is choosing, like which way to turn while driving, etc. I am not able to find any thing that made the choice! So strange and yet choices are made or rather experiences are happening.

(3) what does that conclusion have to do with the direct experience I asked you to use, several times already. Where exactly is direct experience in there?

I now see direct experience has been missing.

The quote above explains the whole process of liberation. You look for that which creates identification. You cant find it. Poof! Thats it

I am beginning to realize this more and more.

So Im not sure where the block is for you. You might create something inside of you, like I did, by the use of your mind, in which case my advise is simple. Whenever a thought comes to your head, use direct experience on it and see what happens.

I believe I am beginning to see the block is the thinking. As I mentioned earlier I spent a good portion of today looking beyond everything (well, basically the thoughts) and I could find nothing. I am noticing that I am beginning to feel very peaceful. However, I went and spent part of the afternoon with a friend and then basically forgot all of my practice of noticing there is no self and yet there still was a huge element of peacefulness from within.

What does "responsible" mean for you?
How can responsibility exist in the absence of somebody to be responsible about something?

I think of responsibility with regards to taking care of my home, my body, the horses, my car, etc. I guess at the time I was asking about this I was confused, but now I see it all just happens. It is life.

[Andrei]

(1) how exactly did you reach the conclusion that the choice happened before the event. On what facts do you base that affirmation

I sat in my chair and I asked from within, via a thought, do I want to raise my arm or not raise my arm. Then I decided to raise my arm via a thought, and so I did. This is how the choosing happened first and then the arm raising second.

No, you`re still not using DE.
You asked from within. How exactly does one ask from within?

If thoughts just happen, how exactly YOU DECIDED via THOUGHT to do something? You do see thoughts as just happening and its not just someting you told me to shut me up right?

This is how the choosing happened first and then the arm raising second.

No this is not how choosing happens. You`re still not using DE.
After you answer me the above 2 questions please do the exercise again and REALLY LOOK this time.

(2) when/if the choice happened before the event, WHO or what made the choice? How did it happen. Please explain the entire process, and

I have looked at this. I spent the day looking at all my choices, or rather looking for a something that is choosing, like which way to turn while driving, etc. I am not able to find any thing that made the choice! So strange and yet choices are made or rather experiences are happening.

You cannot find anything that makes all those choices but somehow you still think you can decide on what choices to make by using your thinking process.
Im getting seriously confused by all this. Maybe you care to explain how come you answer a question in one way now and exactly the opposite in the next paragraph.

[karenwill]

Wow....

I hear that you are seriously confused as to how I am answering. I believe this to be the second or third time that you have made reference to my answers not being satisfactory due to come from of unorganization or confusion.....

I answered the very first question. "(1) how exactly did you reach the conclusion that the choice happened before the event. On what facts do you base that affirmation" as it happened the very first time I did the exercise, which has been some 2-3 days ago. I thought this is what you were asking when you asked the question. The remaining answers came from that current day as I made reference to in my responses. Things are changing, perception is changing, etc. and that perhaps is where the confusion is coming from as I am not including a time line to the events as they unfold.

I also hear that I am still not using direct experience. I will see if I can review again what direct experience is.

I have answered all the questions with my truth and honesty as I see it and as they occur. There is understanding of the concept of no self and understand that things, situations, choices are arising out of nothing. It is the "I/ego/mind" coming in and claiming the credit and importance. Experience is happening on its own. Choices happe. Actually is there even a choice? Or, are things just happening? I (if I can use the word I here for writing purposed only) agree with the second-things are happening.

If there is still confusion, please ask for more clarity.

[Andrei]

So...

I sat in my chair and I asked from within, via a thought, do I want to raise my arm or not raise my arm. Then I decided to raise my arm via a thought, and so I did. This is how the choosing happened first and then the arm raising second.

... the above happened before and now you no longer see things this way?
Is choosing happening independent of a chooser? Can you apply this to all of the choices which happen/happened in your life?
If there are no doubts there we can move further.

The confusion on my part was because you explained the experience without adding if anything changed or how you see it now hence I was wondering if you still see things the same.

Choices happe. Actually is there even a choice? Or, are things just happening?

Good word play there. I dont think we have a choice on making choices either.
There was this experiment done somewhere in Germany or Denmark some years ago. They connected a machine to a subject`s brain. This machine was able to guess 6 seconds PRIOR to the subject answering a question with yes or no answer, what the answer will be simply by observing in what parts of the brain was activity. That pretty much says it all about choices and free will.

Moving forward:
Does the body experience sensations and thought?

Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinesthetic)?

Is there an inside and an outside of the body?

[karenwill]

Yes, I am ready to move on.

These are good questions. I need some time to explore and will write later today.

[karenwill]

Does the body experience sensations and thought?

No

Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinesthetic)?

Yes

Is there an inside and an outside of the body?

No

[Andrei]

Nice.
It looks from your answers that you are starting to see?

What about the other objects(nature, animals, people)? Is there a "you" that feels separated from them or is that just another thought/concept?

I know we talked a lot about thoughts but I got 2 more questions just to be 100% sure:
Are YOU the thinker of thoughts?
Can YOU think and choose a thought?

What about the platform on which things happen, call it mind-screen, call it awareness, etc. Is that a deeper level of the "self" or is it just another bodily function?

[karenwill]

What about the other objects(nature, animals, people)? Is there a "you" that feels separated from them or is that just another thought/concept?

There is not a "you" that feels separate.

Are YOU the thinker of thoughts?

No.

Can YOU think and choose a thought?

No

What about the platform on which things happen, call it mind-screen, call it awareness, etc. Is that a deeper level of the "self" or is it just another bodily function?

I am not clear what you are asking in this question. Please clarify.

[Andrei]

What about the platform on which things happen, call it mind-screen, call it awareness, etc. Is that a deeper level of the "self" or is it just another bodily function?

I am not clear what you are asking in this question. Please clarify.

Ok let`s see. Some identify with a self at the body level. Others at the thinking level. Others at the awareness level. They believe that there is "something" inside, like the idea of the soul, or something that survives our bodily death. I`m not saying there isn't a soul or that after death we completely dissipate into oblivion. That might be the case or not. The point here is not to identify with that idea.
Identifying with a self can be very tricky. The self is sneaky and one can find that even when you stop identifying with your material presence or your immaterial mind/thoughts, you start identifying with your awareness/consciousness.
By awareness I mean that which remains when you clear your head of thoughts, close your eyes, relax. That presence inside your head (I think E. Tolle called it the Witness. I call it mind-screen because it takes away all the BS words like awareness have gathered in time). After you dis-identified with body, thoughts, sensations, etc, it might be quite easy to remain stuck at the awareness level, feeling that presence as true.
Hence my question if there is any identification happening there?
Let me know if I wasn`t clear enough.

Are there any doubts at all about seeing through the illusion of the separate self?

When the “I” has been seen through, fully and completely, what's left?

I need you to take as much time as you`d like to answer the above. Also if you have any questions, anything that is nagging you or that you feel we didn`t talk about let me know.

[karenwill]

Hence my question if there is any identification happening here?

No

Are there any doubts at all about seeing through the illusion of the separate self?

No

When the “I” has been seen through, fully and completely, what's left?

Oneness