Point me to the moon

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Canfora
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Re: Point me to the moon

Postby Canfora » Thu Jul 02, 2015 8:03 pm

Haha I love that image. Weirdly it kind of did feel like that however ridiculuous it sounds! But looking in experience I can't find any separate entity.
:) wonderful!

Let's talk about thoughts. Here are some questions for you:

- where are thoughts coming from, where are they going to?

- is it possible to think more than a thought at the same time?

- can you find "mind" or "memory" in your experience? A container of all the past thoughts?

- can you find what is thinking? A separate entity that thinks?

- does a thought think?

- is it possible to know a thought before it happens?

- right now, is it possible to think about this moment while it is happening or is thinking a "story" about what just happened?

- what does the thought "I" point to? If you look around right now, is it possible to find an "I" that isn't just a thought?

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romanski
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Re: Point me to the moon

Postby romanski » Thu Jul 02, 2015 11:34 pm

where are thoughts coming from, where are they going to?
they come from nowhere and disappear into nothing. i can't even stay with a single thought for very long withouthaving to repeat it
is it possible to think more than a thought at the same time?
nope, impossible just tried it and can't do it. only can switch between two thoughts
can you find "mind" or "memory" in your experience? A container of all the past thoughts?
no, definetely no container. i find it really hard to think of a memory without a thought to trigger it.
does a thought think?
no thoughts are just words/sentences etc. they can trigger more thoughts but they don't think for themselves.
is it possible to know a thought before it happens?
no, they come from nowhere, if i was aware of it before it happened that would just be another thought anyway. I can only have thoughts in the present moment.
right now, is it possible to think about this moment while it is happening or is thinking a "story" about what just happened?
I wasn't too sure how to try this. So i tried to describe this moment, but by the time I described the moment that moment was in the past so i was just describing a memory. I can be aware of the present moment but thinking about it takes it into a story.
what does the thought "I" point to? If you look around right now, is it possible to find an "I" that isn't just a thought?
I think this might be my sticking point. I identify the I with my internal dialogue. If i'm meditating and just notice random thoughts I can clearly see that I didn't create them. They just appeared from nowhere and I didn't do anything to create them. However if I start commentating or judging these thoughts this really seems like there is a me whose doing that. These thoughts don't seem random, they feel like I chose these particular thoughts.

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Canfora
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Re: Point me to the moon

Postby Canfora » Fri Jul 03, 2015 12:14 pm

Wow. Those are very clear answers!
what does the thought "I" point to? If you look around right now, is it possible to find an "I" that isn't just a thought?
I think this might be my sticking point. I identify the I with my internal dialogue. If i'm meditating and just notice random thoughts I can clearly see that I didn't create them. They just appeared from nowhere and I didn't do anything to create them. However if I start commentating or judging these thoughts this really seems like there is a me whose doing that. These thoughts don't seem random, they feel like I chose these particular thoughts.
If you watch a movie, you forget that you are looking at a screen. You become totally involved in the story that is being displayed. In the same way, all the thoughts that arise about your self are just like pictures on a screen. In this way you realize they are just that: thoughts passing by. No matter whether they are about the weather or “me,” there is no difference. Just images on a screen. “Me” is a thought like any other. There never was an entity, person, or thing called “me.” There has only ever been a story.

Thoughts are particularly interesting because, while nobody is experiencing or having a thought, the content of the thought is what carries the “I”. Believing that this thought-content has an actual existence is the illusion. Similarly, the illusion of a separate self arises when you take ownership of a particular experience through the thought “my” or “mine.”

You can test if those "selfing" (about a self) thoughts prove the existence of a real self. If this self exists:

- you can experience this self while that experience is happening;

- that self has control over the thoughts (this implies choosing the content of thoughts - and I suppose that if you are like most people - including me - you would choose to think only pleasant thoughts?);

- that self can control which sensations are felt when "selfing" is happening (I suppose that if you are like most people - including me - you would choose to only feel pleasant sensations?).

Can you experience any of these things ^ ?

Can you find a self or any evidence that a self can control and choose thoughts and sensations while "selfing" is happening? Can you stop having this thoughts about a you? Are those thoughts pointing to a real thing?

So, when you notice that you are involved in the story of me:

- look for the character of the story. Here and now, can this you be found?

- see if it is possible to control the thinking process: can you control the story (shut it down, for example)? Can you choose the content of the story (wouldn't you choose only amazing stories if you could :) ?

- is the story what you are?

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romanski
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Re: Point me to the moon

Postby romanski » Sat Jul 04, 2015 10:56 am

Hey Sandra

I'm a little confused what you mean by the term 'selfing' Do you mean when I have thoughts about myself. e.g. I am driving, I am thinking, I am angry. etc

Thanks Roman

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Canfora
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Re: Point me to the moon

Postby Canfora » Sat Jul 04, 2015 1:50 pm

Hi, Roman!

To me "selfing" is a label that points to the fact that self is a process, instead of being an entity. Self-ing is a verb, not a subject. And, like you're saying, language is one of the causes of the illusion of a self existing as a subject. We say "I am driving" and that is ok, but there is no I in driving. Did this explanation help? Don't take my words too seriously. Check if what I'm saying is true for you. The last thing I want is to make you believe in what I say!

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romanski
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Re: Point me to the moon

Postby romanski » Sat Jul 04, 2015 4:15 pm

You can test if those "selfing" (about a self) thoughts prove the existence of a real self. If this self exists:

- you can experience this self while that experience is happening;
I can't directly experience a self during activities. e.g when eating I say to myself 'i am eating, i am chewing' but i can't find a me whose doing those things only eating, chewing.
- that self has control over the thoughts (this implies choosing the content of thoughts - and I suppose that if you are like most people - including me - you would choose to think only pleasant thoughts?);
No I don't have control over most thoughts. However (and this is where I get confused) I still feel I have control over some thoughts. For example if you asked me to think of a Lion for a minute then it feels like i'm making the effort to think of a memory of a Lion and then keeping it in mind. Now I might not be able to do this for a minute but I'd become aware and try again. So it feels like someone is doing this thinking.
- that self can control which sensations are felt when "selfing" is happening (I suppose that if you are like most people - including me - you would choose to only feel pleasant sensations?).
no I can't control what sensations are felt. They arise spontaneously. It feels like I can choose which sensations to focus on
Can you find a self or any evidence that a self can control and choose thoughts and sensations while "selfing" is happening? Can you stop having this thoughts about a you? Are those thoughts pointing to a real thing?
I can't find any evidence of a self controlling or choosing thoughts. Thoughts come from nowhere. It feels as if the I is the decider on whether or not to act on a thought. e.g. There might be a thought 'I want a cup of tea' I can clearly see there is no I that decided to create that thought. But then I make a choice whether to have a drink or not. So it feels like the I has the final say on whether to take action or not.
- look for the character of the story. Here and now, can this you be found?
No nothing in direct experience. I can find thoughts about the character, but nothing if I ignore the contents of thoughts
- see if it is possible to control the thinking process: can you control the story (shut it down, for example)? Can you choose the content of the story (wouldn't you choose only amazing stories if you could :) ?
I can't control random thoughts. It does feel as if I have some limited control over thoughts though. If I tried NOT to think of a polar bear, theres no way I could do it. I can see I have no control over those thoughts. However like the Lion example above I can think of a Lion and keep coming back to it after I notice i've been distracted.
- is the story what you are?
no, in direct experience if i'm not thinking about my story i'm still here

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Canfora
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Re: Point me to the moon

Postby Canfora » Sun Jul 05, 2015 2:19 pm

What can you see happening if I ask you to think a number from 1 to 10.000?
Can you know what number will pop up before the number pops up?

Are 10.000 numbers (thoughts) available at the same time, so that you can choose between them?
If that's not the case, did you really choose a number? Or the thought x just appeared?
I can't control random thoughts. It does feel as if I have some limited control over thoughts though. If I tried NOT to think of a polar bear, theres no way I could do it. I can see I have no control over those thoughts. However like the Lion example above I can think of a Lion and keep coming back to it after I notice i've been distracted.
A thought is often an opinion on what has just happened. Can you find someone that has some limited control over thoughts, like you're saying above? Or just thoughts about thoughts?

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romanski
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Re: Point me to the moon

Postby romanski » Sun Jul 05, 2015 3:06 pm

Hey Sandra
What can you see happening if I ask you to think a number from 1 to 10.000?
Can you know what number will pop up before the number pops up?
I read the question
A number just appears out of nowhere (5682 if you're interested :-))
No I can't know what number will appear
Are 10.000 numbers (thoughts) available at the same time, so that you can choose between them?
If that's not the case, did you really choose a number? Or the thought x just appeared?
This is interesting. I didn't analyse beforehand saying well I could pick 2582 or 5555 or any of the other 10000 combos. It just appeared. So it appears that I didn't choose anything. It seems as if I had the choice that I could have picked any number but in reality there was no choosing just the appearance of a number.
A thought is often an opinion on what has just happened. Can you find someone that has some limited control over thoughts, like you're saying above? Or just thoughts about thoughts?
I can't find someone who has separate control over thoughts. I think i'm treating opinions and judgements differently than other thoughts because I find them more personal. But there still just thoughts, if there was a self controlling opinions and judgements I would surely only have positive opinions and no judgements?

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Canfora
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Re: Point me to the moon

Postby Canfora » Sun Jul 05, 2015 8:10 pm

5682! ;)
if there was a self controlling opinions and judgements I would surely only have positive opinions and no judgements?
This sounds like a fun experience to do! Can you control thoughts and have only positive opinions and no judgements? Spend some time trying and let me know how it goes :)

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romanski
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Re: Point me to the moon

Postby romanski » Sun Jul 05, 2015 11:21 pm

This sounds like a fun experience to do! Can you control thoughts and have only positive opinions and no judgements? Spend some time trying and let me know how it goes :)
I've spent some time trying and I can't control opinions or judgements. Sometimes i'll be having a negative opinion and a thought will appear saying 'Hang on you're supposed do be thinking positively' and then i'll think a positive opinion instead. But i'm not in control of when I become aware of my negative opinions. I could be caught up for 5 seconds or 5 minutes and at some random point i'll become aware

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Canfora
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Re: Point me to the moon

Postby Canfora » Mon Jul 06, 2015 5:03 pm

At the moment what does the word "I" point to? What do you take yourself to be?
What becomes aware of what is going on? Is it something separate from the experience?

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romanski
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Re: Point me to the moon

Postby romanski » Mon Jul 06, 2015 9:15 pm

At the moment what does the word "I" point to? What do you take yourself to be?
I don't know now! When looking for the self i can't find anything. My thoughts are telling me that I must be what is aware of everything. But I don't know if this is true. I'm not aware when i'm asleep or when i'm lost in an activity.

What becomes aware of what is going on? Is it something separate from the experience?

I don't know. Awareness just happens. I just tried this out when meditating and becoming aware that i'm lost in thought happens out of nowhere. If I was awareness wouldn't I never get lost in thought? I'd be the world's best meditator :-)

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Canfora
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Re: Point me to the moon

Postby Canfora » Tue Jul 07, 2015 2:10 pm

I was awareness wouldn't I never get lost in thought? I'd be the world's best meditator :-)
Yes! :)

I would like you to focus in what can be experienced right now (quite redundant the "right now", yes? You can't experience the past or the future). Focus in what is going on instead of the content of thoughts, the mental chatter.

Can you see separation?

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romanski
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Re: Point me to the moon

Postby romanski » Tue Jul 07, 2015 5:27 pm

I would like you to focus in what can be experienced right now (quite redundant the "right now", yes? You can't experience the past or the future). Focus in what is going on instead of the content of thoughts, the mental chatter.

Can you see separation?
Going through the five senses there is no separate seer and sight, hearer and sound, just seing, hearing etc. Can't find a thinker and thought just thinking. And there's no me to do awareness. It seems to just happen.

I also had an insight into direct experience. I was worried that I might have forgot to lock the front door.I couldn't get back home to check so I was trying to remember, recreating the scene. (basically using thought to try to find out if I had locked it or not) It wasn't until I got back home to actually check with my senses that I could be certain of the action. It's really obvious now that there's no comparison between the thought and direct experience and that you can't rely on thoughts.

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Canfora
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Re: Point me to the moon

Postby Canfora » Wed Jul 08, 2015 3:49 pm

I also had an insight into direct experience. I was worried that I might have forgot to lock the front door.I couldn't get back home to check so I was trying to remember, recreating the scene. (basically using thought to try to find out if I had locked it or not) It wasn't until I got back home to actually check with my senses that I could be certain of the action. It's really obvious now that there's no comparison between the thought and direct experience and that you can't rely on thoughts.
Yes! That's a good example of what looking for something is. So when you look, can you see you're not an entity separate from life? Or do you feel there is something missing? Has anything changed since you started looking?


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