Ready for Anything - Firelight

[Sarah7]

Hey Jim

Okay, I'm game. How about the decision as to how much time to put into trying to make more money versus just relaxing and enjoying something fun and relaxing instead?

OK – so when this thought comes up I want you to watch it like a cat watches a mouse hole. Break it down into its parts.
How does it start, then what do thoughts do (you don’t have to give me their content), is there habit here, is there learnt behavior?
Is there expectation, is there emotion or feeling attached, is there response in the body?
Is there a single thought or a whole bunch, is there a story, do they repeat? How much is ‘I’ based?
Do you bring the decision? Do you decide what decision to have before you have it? Or does it just come/happen? Does it include the label of ‘I’?
If forgetting happens no worries, just pick up when remembering happens.

There is an intense effort to prioritize my thought energy and screen out all thinking about subjects that are not connected with the priority issue(s). I then define the problem or goal, consider my options, and weigh them in putting together a proposed course of action most likely to solve it or achieving the goal.

And are all these thoughts too? A story thought about how ‘you’ did this? Can a thought think?

Interesting...I think this is where I really run into problems, Sarah--i.e. limiting the inquiry to only direct experience, as again, there must be something behind the direct experience driving it and making it appear one way rather than another, doesn't there? Is this where I'm going wrong somehow? Because if looking at my direct experience is the only thing that is truly important, then it would seem that this means I can just stop trying to figure it all out now, right?

Why? Because thought says there is? And would that create another thought based possibly around fear or anxiety? This process will question every belief you have! You only have to look, or not.

Because if looking at my direct experience is the only thing that is truly important, then it would seem that this means I can just stop trying to figure it all out now, right?

:) Just try! LOL.

Yes, you could call that a "story" if you choose, but again, without accepting the validity of logic (which always posits that there is a cause for every effect), then it seems one would have nothing to base one's values, decision, actions, etc. on. This, to me, would seem to be a problem, is it not?

OK – you must verify everything yourself. Never take mine or anyone elses word for anything. Im not here to convince. OK! Im simply asking you to look at what is directly experienced.
What are values and decisions – are they thoughts?

Thank you, Sarah, for your patience. Yes, I am committed to seeing this through. I didn't expect it to be easy, but I already feel that some things in my self-schema are beginning to unravel. Not sure where that's going, but I'm more interested than ever in finding out :-)

OK – and if strong emotions appear please let me know e.g. fear, anxiety or anger and frustration. OK!

When focusing – is there a story attached to that? A thought or a few thoughts? Is there a commentary?

I guess we need to decide how much credence to give the story, and I'm just saying that I don't see how you just dismiss all thought content as a meaningless commentary. Why would any of it appear and reify into such a convincing story of a separate self, unless there was some truth behind it? This is the part I'm having the most trouble getting beyond.

Not dismissing, just questioning. Do you see a strong attachment to your stories and beliefs?

I promise I'm not trying to be difficult here, Sarah, and I realize the historical story about the origins of Santa isn't direct experienc, but this is what I'm dealing with in trying to come to terms with the idea that there really is no separate self.

Look at the question again Jim. Is the thought the thing? Is the thought water actually water? Can a thought ‘know’ anything? Using direct experience what do you notice. Now that experience may also include confusion, resistance etc. Do you see?
I like difficult Jim! Hugs Sarah xxx

[Firelight]

Hi Sarah,

Great to get your reply! Thanks for this clear and rigorous examination of reality you're putting me through.

OK – so when this thought comes up I want you to watch it like a cat watches a mouse hole. Break it down into its parts.
How does it start, then what do thoughts do (you don’t have to give me their content), is there habit here, is there learnt behavior?

When I look that closely at it, I have to admit that the decision-making process (with all its attendant thoughts) just appears out of nowhere. And yes, there is a lot of learnt behavior there too.

Code: Select all

Is there expectation, is there emotion or feeling attached, is there response in the body?

While the thoughts themselves tell me there is emotion/feeling attached, responses in the body, etc., in retrospect I see there is nothing really there for them to attach to.

Is there a single thought or a whole bunch, is there a story, do they repeat? How much is ‘I’ based?
Do you bring the decision? Do you decide what decision to have before you have it? Or does it just come/happen? Does it include the label of ‘I’?

Okay, I see what you're saying. Yes, despite all messages coming from the story itself (including the existence of an "I" as the object), it all just happens on its own. Sort of like mist hanging in space.

And are all these thoughts too? A story thought about how ‘you’ did this? Can a thought think?

Yes, I see that this decision-making process I described are merely free-floating, objectless thoughts, as well, which include the story of a "me" that did all that. No, of course you're right, Sarah, a thought cannot think, so I withdraw that example...lol

Why? Because thought says there is? And would that create another thought based possibly around fear or anxiety? This process will question every belief you have! You only have to look, or not.

Yes, I'm really starting to see that! Its quite scary entertaining the thought of what might happen without my beliefs.

:) Just try! LOL.

Oh, now you're toying with me, Sarah...ha, ha! Seriously, though, are you saying you think I would be fine with just giving up my thinking or are you saying its impossible? (By the way, I know what I just asked is another thought, but I'd still like an answer).

OK – you must verify everything yourself. Never take mine or anyone elses word for anything. Im not here to convince. OK! Im simply asking you to look at what is directly experienced.
What are values and decisions – are they thoughts?

Okay, I understand. Yes, I agree, in my direct experience, all those things I mentioned are simply thoughts.

OK – and if strong emotions appear please let me know e.g. fear, anxiety or anger and frustration. OK!

Thanks, will do! So far, however, nothing like that. Just the disorientation with questioning like I never have before. I think that's a good thing.

When focusing – is there a story attached to that? A thought or a few thoughts? Is there a commentary?

Yes, I see that it always involves layers upon layers of thoughts (how many depends on the complexity of the story) that form a commentary justifying the belief in the story.

Not dismissing, just questioning. Do you see a strong attachment to your stories and beliefs?

Yes, I see the strong attachment to them. I never really did before. I think its starting to click.

Look at the question again Jim. Is the thought the thing? Is the thought water actually water? Can a thought ‘know’ anything? Using direct experience what do you notice. Now that experience may also include confusion, resistance etc. Do you see?

Okay, Sarah, I definitely see that its all a bunch of thoughts comprising a story. Nothing about it is real, including my sense of confusion, resistance, etc.

Seems like I'm making a bit of progress, doesn't it? Feeling much lighter and less confused about all this now, but I know that as long as I'm taking anything that happens seriously, I still have a ways to go, so I hope you'll keep going until we both know I'm clear.

Just needed to let you know, Sarah, I will inadvertently be out of touch tomorrow (6/21), but should be back with it on 6/22, so I look forward reading your reply to this and continuing on.

Thank you again for all your help with this. I'm amazed by the way my inner experience is changing with every exchange of ours. You are a truly wonderful guide!

Hugs. Back with you soon!

Jim

[Firelight]

Hi Sarah,

Great to get your reply! Thanks for this clear and rigorous examination of reality you're putting me through.

OK – so when this thought comes up I want you to watch it like a cat watches a mouse hole. Break it down into its parts.
How does it start, then what do thoughts do (you don’t have to give me their content), is there habit here, is there learnt behavior?

When I look that closely at it, I have to admit that the decision-making process (with all its attendant thoughts) just appears out of nowhere. And yes, there is a lot of learnt behavior there too.

Code: Select all

Is there expectation, is there emotion or feeling attached, is there response in the body?

While the thoughts themselves tell me there is emotion/feeling attached, responses in the body, etc., in retrospect I see there is nothing really there for them to attach to.

Is there a single thought or a whole bunch, is there a story, do they repeat? How much is ‘I’ based?
Do you bring the decision? Do you decide what decision to have before you have it? Or does it just come/happen? Does it include the label of ‘I’?

Okay, I see what you're saying. Yes, despite all messages coming from the story itself (including the existence of an "I" as the object), it all just happens on its own. Sort of like mist hanging in space.

And are all these thoughts too? A story thought about how ‘you’ did this? Can a thought think?

Yes, I see that this decision-making process I described are merely free-floating, objectless thoughts, as well, which include the story of a "me" that did all that. No, of course you're right, Sarah, a thought cannot think, so I withdraw that example...lol

Why? Because thought says there is? And would that create another thought based possibly around fear or anxiety? This process will question every belief you have! You only have to look, or not.

Yes, I'm really starting to see that! Its quite scary entertaining the thought of what might happen without my beliefs.

:) Just try! LOL.

Oh, now you're toying with me, Sarah...ha, ha! Seriously, though, are you saying you think I would be fine with just giving up my thinking or are you saying its impossible? (By the way, I know what I just asked is another thought, but I'd still like an answer).

OK – you must verify everything yourself. Never take mine or anyone elses word for anything. Im not here to convince. OK! Im simply asking you to look at what is directly experienced.
What are values and decisions – are they thoughts?

Okay, I understand. Yes, I agree, in my direct experience, all those things I mentioned are simply thoughts.

OK – and if strong emotions appear please let me know e.g. fear, anxiety or anger and frustration. OK!

Thanks, will do! So far, however, nothing like that. Just the disorientation with questioning like I never have before. I think that's a good thing.

When focusing – is there a story attached to that? A thought or a few thoughts? Is there a commentary?

Yes, I see that it always involves layers upon layers of thoughts (how many depends on the complexity of the story) that form a commentary justifying the belief in the story.

Not dismissing, just questioning. Do you see a strong attachment to your stories and beliefs?

Yes, I see the strong attachment to them. I never really did before. I think its starting to click.

Look at the question again Jim. Is the thought the thing? Is the thought water actually water? Can a thought ‘know’ anything? Using direct experience what do you notice. Now that experience may also include confusion, resistance etc. Do you see?

Okay, Sarah, I definitely see that its all a bunch of thoughts comprising a story. Nothing about it is real, including my sense of confusion, resistance, etc.

Seems like I'm making a bit of progress, doesn't it? Feeling much lighter and less confused about all this now, but I know that as long as I'm taking anything that happens seriously, I still have a ways to go, so I hope you'll keep going until we both know I'm clear.

Just needed to let you know, Sarah, I will inadvertently be out of touch tomorrow (6/21), but should be back with it on 6/22, so I look forward reading your reply to this and continuing on.

Thank you again for all your help with this. I'm amazed by the way my inner experience is changing with every exchange of ours. You are a truly wonderful guide!

Hugs. Back with you soon!

[Sarah7]

Morning Jim!

When I look that closely at it, I have to admit that the decision-making process (with all its attendant thoughts) just appears out of nowhere. And yes, there is a lot of learnt behavior there too.

Well spotted! OK – so now I want you to really test it – every time you notice a decision coming up. OK!

Yes, I'm really starting to see that! Its quite scary entertaining the thought of what might happen without my beliefs.

OK – question it! What would happen? Have a look.

are you saying you think I would be fine with just giving up my thinking or are you saying its impossible? (By the way, I know what I just asked is another thought, but I'd still like an answer).

Well try it! Give up thinking. Tell me what you notice!

Yes, I see that it always involves layers upon layers of thoughts (how many depends on the complexity of the story) that form a commentary justifying the belief in the story.

Yes. Its like onion peeling Jim. A highly complex onion!

I definitely see that its all a bunch of thoughts comprising a story. Nothing about it is real, including my sense of confusion, resistance, etc. Seems like I'm making a bit of progress, doesn't it? Feeling much lighter and less confused about all this now, but I know that as long as I'm taking anything that happens seriously, I still have a ways to go, so I hope you'll keep going until we both know I'm clear.

Well what takes all seriously? What picks up the stories and collects them? What holds them? Repeats them? Judges them etc? What resists? And what might even want them to stop?
No worries about not being around Jim Talk soon! Keep looking!
Hugs Sarah xxx

[Firelight]

Hi Sarah!

Sorry for the delay. I hope you're doing well. So happy to be back, as I don't want to lose the great momentum we have going.

Well spotted! OK – so now I want you to really test it – every time you notice a decision coming up. OK!

I've been doing that constantly since our last exchange, and its clear to me that this decision-making process that's been hanging me up is really not the big deal I originally thought. Carefully watching on how those decisions form and resolve themselves, it is clear that there is no self/doer involved, other than the implied one that is part of the story. I think its just the complexity of that particular combination of thoughts that had me assuming that it had to be the other way around. But I can't find anyone that can prove that, so I guess it has to go!

OK – question it! What would happen? Have a look.

Again, I have been doing a LOT of that kind of looking these last couple of days, and its really so scary anymore, as it is amazing to me that its that simple: i.e. that this very convincing and complex 3-D movie of willed action by an individual is happening for no one. The fear really comes from believing in the objective reality of a separate self.

Well try it! Give up thinking. Tell me what you notice!

Okay, I've been trying, and what I've discovered is that thinking goes on, and really can't be stopped, because there's no one there to stop it! At the same time, the seeing of it from that perspective goes a long way toward disengaging from it as a "problem."

Yes. Its like onion peeling Jim. A highly complex onion!

Indeed! I've heard that analogy before, but now I can really relate to it.

Well what takes all seriously? What picks up the stories and collects them? What holds them? Repeats them? Judges them etc? What resists? And what might even want them to stop?

Nothing takes them serious, nothing picks up the stories and collects them. And nothing holds them, repeats them, judges them, resists them, or wants them to stop. Its all just more spontaneously appearing thoughts creating the illusion that there is time, space, and a separate self behind them that could do all that.

I see all that directly now, Sarah. My only question is why does the appearance continue. Is it just a random phenomena or is there something else I'm missing. The toughest thing I'm facing now is letting go of the idea that there is some cosmic purpose in it all. If there's no purpose to any of it, what is the difference between this insight and nihilism? But you'll probably suggest that's all just another thought too..ha, ha! Could it be that there is no answer to the question because everything--including the concept of nihilism--has no basis except as a presently appearing notion?

I hope I'm on the right track here, Sarah. I'm sure you'll put me straight if I'm not :-)

Looking forward to your reply when you have time.

With much gratitude,

Jim

[Sarah7]

Morning Jim
Wonderful stuff Jim!

I've been doing that constantly since our last exchange, and its clear to me that this decision-making process that's been hanging me up is really not the big deal I originally thought. Carefully watching on how those decisions form and resolve themselves, it is clear that there is no self/doer involved, other than the implied one that is part of the story.

Wow!

Again, I have been doing a LOT of that kind of looking these last couple of days, and its really so scary anymore, as it is amazing to me that its that simple: i.e. that this very convincing and complex 3-D movie of willed action by an individual is happening for no one. The fear really comes from believing in the objective reality of a separate self.

And is most/all of the fear formed from future thoughts and imagination rather than what is actually experienced here and now?

I've been trying, and what I've discovered is that thinking goes on, and really can't be stopped, because there's no one there to stop it! At the same time, the seeing of it from that perspective goes a long way toward disengaging from it as a "problem."

And what happens to thought when disengaging happens? Did ‘you’ do that? Or did disengaging just happen along with everything else?

I see all that directly now, Sarah. My only question is why does the appearance continue.

Ah. Well what is bothered by it continuing? What would expect or even want it to stop?

Is it just a random phenomena or is there something else I'm missing. The toughest thing I'm facing now is letting go of the idea that there is some cosmic purpose in it all. If there's no purpose to any of it, what is the difference between this insight and nihilism? But you'll probably suggest that's all just another thought too..ha, ha! Could it be that there is no answer to the question because everything--including the concept of nihilism--has no basis except as a presently appearing notion?

OK – so is it a problem NOT to have an answer? What would want an answer? Thoughts? What wants to understand? Thoughts again? What wants to sole this ‘problem’? Thoughts again – bless them – there is love there.

In terms of nihilism – was there a problem before you noticed what has been noticed? Or did everything carry on despite what thoughts were saying and claiming ownership? What do you notice about this? Go sit somewhere quiet – breathe in fresh air, smell earth/flowers whatever, feel the air on your skin, watch everything life-ing. What do you notice?
Hugs Sarah xxx

[Firelight]

Hey Sarah!

My apologies for the delay in response. Thank you for your encouragement, dedication, and bearing with me on this. I feel things are definitely going in the right direction.

And is most/all of the fear formed from future thoughts and imagination rather than what is actually experienced here and now?

What can I say? Yes, of course it is...LOL

And what happens to thought when disengaging happens? Did ‘you’ do that? Or did disengaging just happen along with everything else?

Yes, I looked again just to make sure. It "just happened," just as it does with everything else.

Ah. Well what is bothered by it continuing? What would expect or even want it to stop?

Just more thoughts. Its just all thoughts, through and through, isn't it? No explaining it as there's just no one there for whom there could be an answer (if there was one, which I now see there isn't!).

OK – so is it a problem NOT to have an answer? What would want an answer? Thoughts? What wants to understand? Thoughts again? What wants to sole this ‘problem’? Thoughts again – bless them – there is love there.

Touche' again, Sarah! Yes, I agree, "there is love there" :-) I think I get it now. How funny!! Stuff (made out of thought), without there being anything for it to happen to. It is ALWAYS just more thoughts that say differently. Therefore, whether you call it nihilism, the ultimate understanding, or union with the Godhead, its all the same thing--more thoughts. Hmm...what do you do with that? Answer: Who/what would want to know? More thoughts....

In terms of nihilism – was there a problem before you noticed what has been noticed? Or did everything carry on despite what thoughts were saying and claiming ownership? What do you notice about this? Go sit somewhere quiet – breathe in fresh air, smell earth/flowers whatever, feel the air on your skin, watch everything life-ing. What do you notice?

Wow, you're reallygood, Sarah! I did what you suggested. I was way overdue for a walk in the woods, so thanks for that, but this one was especially nice! Yes, I can solidly confirm that its all true. There was absolutely no problem at all before I saw what was really going on here. It was only after that, that more thoughts came in claiming their ownership of the situation and creating the problem of "nihilism." Everything just happens perfectly without any "doer" to take ownership. If the "doer" happens to arise, I know its just more thoughts.

I see that all this time I have been giving absolute power to thoughts without deeply questioning what they are, assuming they must be the ultimate concrete building blocks of "self" (and by extension, existence itself!). Thoughts just seemed to be so fundamental to understanding, that I never entertained the possibility that they might be lying to me...LOL But at the end of the day, I now realize that they are just thoughts, and the only thing that would want to know more than that is--surprise, surprise--another thought! The "gateless gate" indeed!

Now I think I fully understand that quote of yours, "If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are." I didn't before at all--or it just really didn't have any bite to it. Now it definitely does! This is quite a change for me!!

Am I missing anything, Sarah? Its feeling pretty complete, but then again, that may just be another thought!

Can't wait to hear back from you when you can.

With true gratitude,

Jim

[Sarah7]

Wow Jim!

Yes, I agree, "there is love there" :-) I think I get it now. How funny!! Stuff (made out of thought), without there being anything for it to happen to. It is ALWAYS just more thoughts that say differently. Therefore, whether you call it nihilism, the ultimate understanding, or union with the Godhead, its all the same thing--more thoughts. Hmm...what do you do with that? Answer: Who/what would want to know? More thoughts....

Can thoughts know anything?

I did what you suggested. I was way overdue for a walk in the woods, so thanks for that, but this one was especially nice! Yes, I can solidly confirm that its all true. There was absolutely no problem at all before I saw what was really going on here. It was only after that, that more thoughts came in claiming their ownership of the situation and creating the problem of "nihilism." Everything just happens perfectly without any "doer" to take ownership. If the "doer" happens to arise, I know its just more thoughts.

OK – so I want you to notice ‘problems’ arise. Look for them. Watch them try and take shape. Watch them try and attach. And if they do attach notice what thoughts say about that – do they still want something other than what is?

I see that all this time I have been giving absolute power to thoughts without deeply questioning what they are, assuming they must be the ultimate concrete building blocks of "self" (and by extension, existence itself!). Thoughts just seemed to be so fundamental to understanding, that I never entertained the possibility that they might be lying to me...LOL But at the end of the day, I now realize that they are just thoughts, and the only thing that would want to know more than that is--surprise, surprise--another thought! The "gateless gate" indeed!

:) How do you feel?

Now I think I fully understand that quote of yours, "If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are." I didn't before at all--or it just really didn't have any bite to it. Now it definitely does! This is quite a change for me!!

Has the illusion of self has been revealed? If so what remains?
Big hugs Sarah xxx

[Firelight]

Good Morning Sarah,

Thanks, as always, for your wonderful reply! Receiving your messages always makes me smile.

Can thoughts know anything?

No, they cannot know anything at all, I'm clear on that.

OK – so I want you to notice ‘problems’ arise. Look for them. Watch them try and take shape. Watch them try and attach. And if they do attach notice what thoughts say about that – do they still want something other than what is?

Okay, Sarah, I've been watching them as you say, and will continue to do so over the next few days. Its a great exercise! My experience thus far is that there is still a little bit of that "wanting something other than what is" going on, but less and less all the time.

:) How do you feel?

Things are feeling much easier and lighter for me these days as the insights from our dialogue sink in. Things that have worried me non-stop for ages just don't have much juice anymore (and what little is left disintegrates when I take a direct look at driving the anxiety).

Has the illusion of self has been revealed? If so what remains?

Well, its at least clear to me that that thought either happens or it doesn't happen, but either way, things are just as they always are :-) No way it could be otherwise. All there is is this, here, now, present, direct experiencing, with no need of interpretation through the mind (most of the time, anyway...LOL).

I'm enjoying this, Sarah, and just want to keep going with it until its automatic with every thought that says that it wants to attach and cause a "problem" for me.

Have a lovely day, and I'll look forward to hearing from you soon!

With never-ending gratitude,

Jim

[Sarah7]

Hey Jim

Thanks, as always, for your wonderful reply! Receiving your messages always makes me smile.

:D

Okay, Sarah, I've been watching them as you say, and will continue to do so over the next few days. Its a great exercise! My experience thus far is that there is still a little bit of that "wanting something other than what is" going on, but less and less all the time.

Yes. Let me know what you notice!

Things are feeling much easier and lighter for me these days as the insights from our dialogue sink in. Things that have worried me non-stop for ages just don't have much juice anymore (and what little is left disintegrates when I take a direct look at driving the anxiety).

Is there a ‘wanting’ for this state to be permanent? If so what would want that? And is anything permanent?

I'm enjoying this, Sarah, and just want to keep going with it until its automatic with every thought that says that it wants to attach and cause a "problem" for me.

Wasn’t trying to get rid of you! LOL. Im here till you are clear. OK.
Have a look at the ‘want’ here – whats it made up of? Future thoughts wanting something other than what is?
Hugs Sarah xxx

[Firelight]

Hey there, Sarah!

Yes. Let me know what you notice!

Continuing to watch the problem-making mechanism like a hawk. Thoughts and perceptions arise from nowhere in pure awareness, and then dissolve leaving no trace. Its only if "attachment" to one of the thoughts happens that suffering occurs.

Is there a ‘wanting’ for this state to be permanent? If so what would want that? And is anything permanent?

Good catch, Sarah! Yes, there IS a subtle desire for this state to be permanent. I think that's where I've gotten hopelessly hung up before in previous inquiry processes. Can you help me with that one?

Wasn’t trying to get rid of you! LOL. Im here till you are clear. OK.

Jim sighs huge sigh of relief :-) Thanks for the reassurance there, Sarah. I definitely want to go all the way and be totally sure I've got it.

Have a look at the ‘want’ here – whats it made up of? Future thoughts wanting something other than what is?

Yes, you did it again! Yes, its always future thoughts wanting something other than what is. I get that, but where do you go with it? I know that's just more thoughts, of course, but is that the end of it? I truly want to know.

Thanks again for hanging in there with me, Sarah.

With gratitude,

Jim xoxo

[Sarah7]

Morning Jim!

Continuing to watch the problem-making mechanism like a hawk. Thoughts and perceptions arise from nowhere in pure awareness, and then dissolve leaving no trace. Its only if "attachment" to one of the thoughts happens that suffering occurs.

And what is that attachment made up of? Can you see it?

Yes, there IS a subtle desire for this state to be permanent. I think that's where I've gotten hopelessly hung up before in previous inquiry processes. Can you help me with that one?

OK – go sit somewhere quiet – doesn’t matter where and watch. Where is permanence? Is it in the light, the shadows, the body, seeing, hearing, emotions or thoughts? What, apart from what notices, is permanent? Even when the ocean looks calm and still – is it? What doesn’t move!

I definitely want to go all the way and be totally sure I've got it.

Where is it you 'think' you are going to be? What is wrong with right now outside of thought? :) What are you waiting for, do you know?

Yes, its always future thoughts wanting something other than what is. I get that, but where do you go with it? I know that's just more thoughts, of course, but is that the end of it? I truly want to know.

End?
How often are you spotting them now? And when you spot these wanting thoughts – what happens to them?
Hugs Sarah xxx

[Firelight]

Morning Sarah,

And what is that attachment made up of? Can you see it?

No, I cannot see it, and of course its just more thoughts. It seems like one thought fighting against another thought telling you to believe that there is something real behind it. Reason now tells me its not true but I can't deny that it continues to bother me sometimes.

OK – go sit somewhere quiet – doesn’t matter where and watch. Where is permanence? Is it in the light, the shadows, the body, seeing, hearing, emotions or thoughts? What, apart from what notices, is permanent? Even when the ocean looks calm and still – is it? What doesn’t move!

Permanence seems to be only a concept--a thought--with no basis in reality. I tend to confuse this concept of permanence with the "what is that notices," but I see that the difference is that what is has no reference point in time. Still there is frustration with the arising thoughts and concepts, and those seem very solid and permanent sometimes.

Where is it you 'think' you are going to be?

Somewhere better than this...LOL Sad but true.

What is wrong with right now outside of thought? :)

Nothing, of course, but thought remains to ruin it all. I can dismiss it from a logical standpoint as nonsense, but I can't ignore it.

What are you waiting for, do you know?

No, I have no idea what I'm waiting for, but the thoughts continue to say that there is something I need to do, to achieve with my life. And that requires more intense thinking and problem-solving. I'm back to square one and going in circles, aren't I know...LOL

How often are you spotting them now? And when you spot these wanting thoughts – what happens to them?

I'm definitely spotting them much more than I did at the beginning of our conversation, I can mostly dismiss them, and then most of them disappear in favor of new thoughts--some disturbing and some neutral. Perhaps I'm getting way off track here, but one of the things I'm grappling with right now is whether anything in the realm of metaphysics/spirituality has any relevance to life at all, given the nature of what we've been discussing.

For instance, I have a strong academic background in psychology. I love mythology and archetypal studies (e.g. the work of Carl Jung) and some aspects of ritual (wedding and funeral ceremonies, which seem to have great meaning to people as important rites of passage) as part of my work as a minister that I have been trying to establish myself in over the past two years. My concern is that if I allow myself to fully embrace the truth that thoughts have no meaning at all, my life's work would have no meaning as well, and I'd fall into that bottomless pit of nihilism I mentioned before.

More thoughts, I know, but this is where I'm attached/stuck, Sarah. Hopefully you can help out of this quagmire. Just let me know if you need more details here.

I feel like I take one step forward with this, then two steps back? This is the most frustrating part, and the frustration does seem to have some permanence to it, although I know its just thought. What am I missing?

Thanks again Sarah. I feel really close to freedom, but still need some pushing, as you can see!

Love/Hugs,

Jim

[Sarah7]

Hello Jim!

No, I cannot see it, and of course its just more thoughts. It seems like one thought fighting against another thought telling you to believe that there is something real behind it. Reason now tells me its not true but I can't deny that it continues to bother me sometimes.

If you cant see it how do you know its made up of thoughts? LOL. Do you mean thoughts are invisible or the one who is attached is invisible? Keep looking! Onion peeling Jim!

Permanence seems to be only a concept--a thought--with no basis in reality. I tend to confuse this concept of permanence with the "what is that notices," but I see that the difference is that what is has no reference point in time. Still there is frustration with the arising thoughts and concepts, and those seem very solid and permanent sometimes.

Has that come from an expectation that it shouldn’t be happening? That you should have got it by now? That thoughts shouldn’t be happening? Don’t they also arise in/to what is? How are thoughts different from any other arising? Doing happen, seeing happens, hearing happens and so to do thoughts. Do you see? And that which criticizes the thought arising is also …..a thought! LOL.

Somewhere better than this...LOL Sad but true.

Nothing, of course, but thought remains to ruin it all. I can dismiss it from a logical standpoint as nonsense, but I can't ignore it.

OK – good that its out in the open! What says that thought ruins it all? That which notices everything – does that say thoughts shouldn’t be there? Is that which notices bothered by thought? No? So what is? What says thought shouldn’t be part of what is?

No, I have no idea what I'm waiting for, but the thoughts continue to say that there is something I need to do, to achieve with my life. And that requires more intense thinking and problem-solving. I'm back to square one and going in circles, aren't I know...LOL

:) Are you wide read Jim – with spiritual books? Have you been sold the bliss dream? The firework dream?
OK – so when you notice these thoughts that are driving – what then happens? What believes them?

I'm definitely spotting them much more than I did at the beginning of our conversation, I can mostly dismiss them, and then most of them disappear in favor of new thoughts--some disturbing and some neutral.

Good. Do you notice that the types of thought are being labelled here – either neutral or disturbing? What power do thoughts have Jim? Who or what is disturbed by what is thought?

For instance, I have a strong academic background in psychology. I love mythology and archetypal studies (e.g. the work of Carl Jung) and some aspects of ritual (wedding and funeral ceremonies, which seem to have great meaning to people as important rites of passage) as part of my work as a minister that I have been trying to establish myself in over the past two years. My concern is that if I allow myself to fully embrace the truth that thoughts have no meaning at all, my life's work would have no meaning as well, and I'd fall into that bottomless pit of nihilism I mentioned before.

Yes – this process will question every belief you have. Is this ok? Is there something that wants to hang onto beliefs – which are what by the way?
Did you chose to like mythology? Did you chose what you are interested in? Do you think that will vanish?
Are thoughts afraid that they will no longer have a purpose? Will no longer be used? What do thoughts think will happen? Is thought writing stories about disaster? I know you said Nihilism – but within that? That what you have done has no meaning? Is the work itself there? Has doing happened? Does doing still happen now? Has thought made a connection between doing and it?
Do you write Jim? When writing is happening – where are ‘you’? Are ‘you’ there or is the writing just happening?

I feel like I take one step forward with this, then two steps back? This is the most frustrating part, and the frustration does seem to have some permanence to it, although I know its just thought. What am I missing?

What is the frustration made up of Jim? Is it a feeling, an emotion? Is it over laid with thoughts and story? Is there comparison there?
Big hugs Sarah xxx

[Firelight]

Hello, Sarah,

If you cant see it how do you know its made up of thoughts? LOL. Do you mean thoughts are invisible or the one who is attached is invisible? Keep looking! Onion peeling Jim!

Ah yes, that infinite-layered onion again! I think what I meant about "not being able to see it," was that I don't really "see" anything except visual stimuli. Thoughts, to me, seem to be of a different order than sensory stimuli, much more subtle and hard to identify. They come and go so fast, when one tries to isolate them to examine them, one can almost come to the conclusion that they are just nothing! And yet they take such a pivotal role in our experience of life. What a paradox!

Has that come from an expectation that it shouldn’t be happening? That you should have got it by now? That thoughts shouldn’t be happening? Don’t they also arise in/to what is? How are thoughts different from any other arising? Doing happens, seeing happens, hearing happens and so to do thoughts. Do you see? And that which criticizes the thought arising is also …..a thought! LOL.

Yes, I see very clearly that's true, Sarah. A bunch of disembodied thoughts quarreling with each other...

OK – good that its out in the open! What says that thought ruins it all? That which notices everything – does that say thoughts shouldn’t be there? Is that which notices bothered by thought? No? So what is? What says thought shouldn’t be part of what is?

Another thought! Okay, I got it :) Nothing ever says anything except for thoughts.

:) Are you wide read Jim – with spiritual books? Have you been sold the bliss dream? The firework dream?
OK – so when you notice these thoughts that are driving – what then happens? What believes them?

As far as I can see, just whole chain of other thoughts that takes on the very convincing appearance of solidity (but now that its been examined closely, I realize not to be anything of the sort).

Good. Do you notice that the types of thought are being labelled here – either neutral or disturbing? What power do thoughts have Jim? Who or what is disturbed by what is thought?

Me, I'm being disturbed by thought, to the extent that there really is a "me," which I suspect there probably isn't. Although until that is totally apparent I must assume there is...LOL

Yes – this process will question every belief you have. Is this ok? Is there something that wants to hang onto beliefs – which are what by the way?

Yes, there seems to be something that still wants to hang onto beliefs there. Of course, the beliefs are merely thoughts. And yes, I'm totally ready to question them to the end. Sounds crazy, doesn't it?

Did you chose to like mythology? Did you chose what you are interested in? Do you think that will vanish?

While it "seems" that I chose these interests, with what I have realized about the nature of thoughts/beliefs, I really can't say that I did choose them. Since its all simply a bunch of cloud-like thoughts there. I'm not sure what you mean with your question about whether I think those interests will vanish? Can you elaborate a bit on that, please, Sarah?

Are thoughts afraid that they will no longer have a purpose?

Yes they are. I know its a silly idea when seen in perspective, but they still do...LOL

Will no longer be used? What do thoughts think will happen? Is thought writing stories about disaster?

Yep, same thing. I guess if I just KNEW every one of those thoughts were absolute B.S. they wouldn't have any effect on me (whatever "me" is--another thought I suspect!). It doesn't make any sense at all, but I know this is where its going. Perhaps that's what you were referring to about my concern that my attachment to certain beliefs might vanish?

I know you said Nihilism – but within that? That what you have done has no meaning? Is the work itself there? Has doing happened? Does doing still happen now? Has thought made a connection between doing and it?

I'm sorry to keep saying that this sounds like nihilism. I know its not really nihilism, but at a certain point in the inquiry, it becomes extremely difficult to differentiate between them. What I'm getting from it right now--and yes, I concede that this is just more thoughts--is that all that is happening is an apparently never-ending stream of disembodied, cloud-like thoughts that have absolutely no significance other than to apparently convince themselves that its totally the opposite (i.e. that there are solid, objective entities living in a time-space bounded world of cause-and-effect, etc.). Am I finally starting to get it, Sarah? Not that there is any need for me to, as that would just be another thought saying that!

Do you write Jim? When writing is happening – where are ‘you’? Are ‘you’ there or is the writing just happening?

Actually, if I'm correct in my above statement, then nothing is happening. There can be no writing or anything else. Something appears to be "noticing" things happening, but total subjectivity cannot be an object/thing, and so that would be the end of the whole story (that is, inasmuch as taking any perceived phenomena as truly existent).

What do you think, Sarah? Am I far off the mark here?

What is the frustration made up of Jim? Is it a feeling, an emotion? Is it over laid with thoughts and story? Is there comparison there?

Just more thoughts there...LOL

Have a super day today. I look forward to hearing from you again.

Hugs,

Jim xxxx