Confused with emotion and D.E.

[jkim]

I can't wait to do this d.e. with emotions!!

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[JonathanR]

Hi Julia,

In d.e. there is only sound..
In d.e. there is no hearer.

A thought labels a sound heard.. then creates the image of a spinning fan.. like.. instantaneously..

I guess it is the thought that passes comment about the hearing? ?

Well, we are not really in the business of guessing here. It is possible to notice this announcing and commenting and labelling of experience by thought. It is great that you notice all this. It won't be necessary to take any of this on hearsay if it's noticed directly.

I can't wait to do this d.e. with emotions!!

Sounds like a good idea. But could you let me know exactly what you are meaning or understanding by the term 'd.e'? I guess you have come across this term before and it is important for me to know exactly what you understand by it? Thanks.

Are there particular emotions you had in mind to look at directly? Thing about emotions is you can't necassarily make them happen to order at the time you might want to investigate them, can you? They have to be noticed happening in real=time, right in the moment, otherwise it's just thinking about emotions or memories about emotions. Do you see the issue?


Love

Jon.

[jkim]

Hi jon,

Yes, that's so true.. emotions imagined is yet another thought! Haha didn't see that..
Wait, then that leaves me.. unable to specify which emotions Because its another thought? Hmm well to recall, it is a mixture of wanting to cry.. but i cant access it.. Through numbing myself so much..

And d.e. ivve read it somewhere on this forum where someone specified it.. something about experiencing a moment with sensations, not through a thought. I had to practice seeing through d.e. at first, it seems to get easier.

I also have a question jon, do you experience in d.e. at all times?

Julia

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[jkim]

Jon, since emotions are felt as sensations. Would it help to acknowledge a sensation rather than labeling an emotion? Because labeling is also a thought..

Julia

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[JonathanR]

Hi Julia,

Yes, that's so true.. emotions imagined is yet another thought! Haha didn't see that..
Wait, then that leaves me.. unable to specify which emotions Because its another thought? Hmm well to recall, it is a mixture of wanting to cry.. but i cant access it.. Through numbing myself so much..

Hmm. So far so good....

Jon, since emotions are felt as sensations. Would it help to acknowledge a sensation rather than labeling an emotion? Because labeling is also a thought..

Brilliant! Yes. acknowledgement of sensations that appear inseparable from an emotion is very good and without labelling the emotion is excellent.

And d.e. ivve read it somewhere on this forum where someone specified it.. something about experiencing a moment with sensations, not through a thought. I had to practice seeing through d.e. at first, it seems to get easier.

Your other remarks show you already understand what this is about. I don't use the term 'd.e.' simply becasue it sounds oddly 'official' and meaningless...exactly like a label for something!. There are better words to express what's meant, such as 'noticing sensations and thoughts happening right here and now' but 'experiencing a moment with sensations, not through a thought' is excellent.

So, returning to acknolwedging sensations, between now and next post, if emotions are experienced such as the ones you mention, notice any sensations that seem associated with these. Notice where, in the body, the sensation is experienced and how it flows, how it comes and goes.

Is there a 'you' that 'experiences' the sensations?

Let me know how you get on.


Love,

Jon

[jkim]

"Noticing sensations and thoughts happening right here and now"

I need another day with this.. couldn't focus much... or more like.. a solid me was there..

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[jkim]

A solid me was there in the experience, while emotion thought was gripping me..

It was hard to focus w presence of emotions..



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[JonathanR]

Hi Julia,

"Noticing sensations and thoughts happening right here and now"

I need another day with this.. couldn't focus much... or more like.. a solid me was there..

A solid me was there in the experience, while emotion thought was gripping me..

It was hard to focus w presence of emotions..

I wasn't very specific about what to look at, was I? I am not surprised that focus was tricky.

Usually we ask you to focus on something more specific than general 'thoughts and feelings'. And also, to focus on really strong emotions at the beginning is probably asking quite a lot.

I'm going to suggest some more focused investigations that may not appear to be directly to do with emotions but that may well help you to start to be able to notice the arrival and effect of emotions, even strong ones, when these do arise.

Become aware of physical sensations. If you are standing, notice the sensation of pressure often described as the sense 'touch' or 'feel' in your feet. If sitting this will likely be a feeling of pressure between body and chair and perhaps the chair back.

In this immediate experience of pure sensation, is 'a body' found 'doing feeling'?

Is a 'self' noticed 'experiencing feeling' or is there simply feeling?

Notice if any thoughts appear during this exercise. Do thoughts pass comment on this direct experience, or perhaps comment about something unrelated?

Does it seem that thoughts are part of the direct sensation of feeling, or that what thoughts 'say' is extra to this experience, ideas added on to the real sesnation?


Love,

Jon

[jkim]

Jon,

It seems to be working.. i want to stay in this atm.. typing out might shaken things up and get me lost..

Ill come back tomorrow!
Thx

Julia

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[JonathanR]

Hi Julia,

That's fine. It is possible that I may not be able to post on either Saturday or Sunday, by the way. But hopefully I will.


Love.

Jon

[jkim]

Omg.... i just typed in a long.. reply... and it said it had an error........

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[jkim]

Jon,

Cant open up my computer.. its old, so i guess im stuck retyping w this tiny phone.. :0

<br />In this immediate experience of pure sensation, is 'a body' found 'doing feeling'?<br /><br />Is a 'self' noticed 'experiencing feeling' or is there simply feeling? <br /><br />Notice if any thoughts appear during this exercise. Do thoughts pass comment on this direct experience, or perhaps comment about something unrelated? <br />
There is no body doing a feeling.. the body is just another thought..and there is only a sensation..
When i directly experience, it goes on all simultaneously.. feels like one thing is dissolving tho.. like it slipping off from my tight grip.. like i cant hold grab of that thought anymore as i experience the thought here and now..

"Does it seem that thoughts are part of the direct sensation of feeling, or that what thoughts 'say' is extra to this experience, ideas added on to the real sesnation?"
- thought seem to create this sensation.. but then a thought has to exist to notice this whatever is 'real'.. this is like a riddle.. idk which comes first... irdk...


My original response was a lot more detailed, but this is pretty much the main points of it.. :)

Julia

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[JonathanR]

HI Julia

Sorry that your post was lost. Did I say that it is a good idea to copy your work to computer memory, expecially just before you try to submit it? This website has a nasty habit of logging users out without warning after about an hour and this can result in work being lost.

"Does it seem that thoughts are part of the direct sensation of feeling, or that what thoughts 'say' is extra to this experience, ideas added on to the real sesnation?"
- thought seem to create this sensation.. but then a thought has to exist to notice this whatever is 'real'.. this is like a riddle

Ok, I want you to focus on this area for a while.This should not feel like a lot of effort but will require you to look carefully.

In the hearing investigation you already noticed that there can be only hearing and in seeing only the seeing. Isn't that right?

So how is thought 'creating' these sensations, exactly? Look at this. Can a thought be noticed 'creating sensations'?

Look at sensation. Does it seem that hearing is being 'made' by thought? Or does it seem that hearing just happens?

Also, is it possible to observe a thought actually noticing anything? To find out ask the question 'what is it that does the noticing'? Is it thought? Noticing certainly happens but do thoughts 'notice'?

What is a thought? Is it any more than an idea ABOUT something or an image ABOUT about something (but not the actual experience)?

Can a thought be seen 'making something happen'? (like picking up a cup), for instance?

Find a piece of fruit. Now leave the piece of fruit somewhere and go to a different room where it isn't visible.

Now close your eyes and attempt to imagine the piece of fruit. Try to see it and imagine it as if it were real.

After a little of this, return to where the fruit is. Pick it up for real and feel it's weight., its texture, it's fragrance, its colour, maybe even its taste.

Which was the more vivid and real experience? The thought-fruit or the actual fruit?

Pick it up again in your hand. The fruit is picked up and held.

Now, can thought pick up that piece of fruit?

Does thought make anything happen?


Love

Jon

[jkim]

Hi jon..
There seems to be residual sensations attached to certain thoughts..

Thoughts cannot notice, but noticing a thought happens.. and the sensations are noticed too..

"Can a thought be seen making something happen?"
-hmm..
No.. there is a noticing of cup being picked up.. and noticing is a noticing of a thought.. you're saying noticing is not a thought.. correct?

And the fruit experiment...
Wow.. when i imagine a fruit eyes closed, it is a thought.. i cant feel the texture or see it.. actual fruit was more vivid...
Thought cant pick up that fruit.. thought does not make anything happen.. everything thought is, is unreal.. i mean, it has its own reality, but its all just a thought..



But going back to my previous reply, (sorry, i guess i didn't clarify) thought seems to create this emotional sensation that i feel.. that i notice..
I dont just notice emotional sensations... it seems to be a byproduct of a thought..

But.. its a feeling reacting to an unreality (a thought)
An emotional response(sensations) to an unreality..



Julia

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[jkim]

Ok.. so thoughts may trigger emotional sensations, but thoughts are still unreal... is that how you view jon?

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