The Gate

Today i don't have anything to say. It's like i know everything that there is to know and allso know nothing at all.

cool.

I really really hope that i get a glimpse some time.

I'll point this out again. This "I" does NOT get a glimpse.

The story of you is akin to a daydream. This "you" will always be a day dream. What is here right now in our real experience is not a daydream. Seeing the difference between what is real and what is not is what we are after here.

Reality = real

Thought = not reality. (At BEST it is an interpretation of reality. It is the story about what is not happening)

Sorry for posting such a brief and frustrated answer. But that's where i'm at right now. I read the LU book, lots of other books of course too and i could say all the right words. There is obviously nothing more to learn in terms of information. as a person who always relies on information it's a difficoult position to be in, when there's nothing to gain via thinking about it. I simply don't know what to do. I know it's all about looking. But i have't realy understood yet, what looking means. When i look into direct experience, the moment i start investigating, if there is an "I" allso thinking starts. It seems not possible to look for a self without thinking. Concentrating on the breath or on physical sensations is very different and much easier. I guess i just keep trying.

Best
Ben

Ben,

Answer just this simple question in this analogy.

If you're imagining yourself in a grassy field with 12 tigers and they are about to kill you and you want to get out of this horrid dream entirely What do you do?

A ) use more imagination
B) recognize its not real/it's unreality as just imagination?


This thing with "yourself" as we are talking about is the same thing. Except this "you" are those imaginary tigers.

What has been going on in our dialogue is you're attempting to use imagination to get out of imagination.

How can that ever work?

What I'm been pointing you towards is recognizing what is real, which is our experience right now. That's it. It's that simple.

Looking in our experience is just giving more attention to our live experience right now than our thoughts. Simple.


Just wanted to mention I am not saying this as a personal attack. Just another angle to look at. I appreciate your persistence here.

Cody

Looking in our experience is just giving more attention to our live experience right now than our thoughts. Simple.

It is painfuly obvious that my mind is not me. At least it is not under my control. It keeps franticly talking all the time and never stops. There are phases, when it gets a little quieter but at the moment it is in a very talkative mode. Even what i would call meta thinking - thinking about thinking - is automatic and just happens. I don't experience that as liberating at all. It's anoiing. But one thing is clear. It's not me, that's thinking. It just thinks.
That makes it kind of hard to look in my experience and give it more attention than my thoughts. But i keep trying.

It is painfuly obvious that my mind is not me.

Awesome :)

At least it is not under my control. It keeps franticly talking all the time and never stops. There are phases, when it gets a little quieter but at the moment it is in a very talkative mode.

Great noticing.

And that's just what the mind does. It talks and talks and talks. There's no need to stop it though.

But one thing is clear. It's not me, that's thinking. It just thinks.

YESS :)

What is the problem with 'mind' then if it's not you?

A lot of people try to quiet the mind, but it's assuming that "I am the mind". As you've noticed you're not. So it's just doing what it does. It has nothing to do with you.

Some of the thoughts may be 'about you', but again it has nothing to do with reality. It's just thoughts running. There isn't actually a personal 'you' in experience.

Although i didn't get it yet, one thing changed. No long streches of unconcious and uninterrupted thought apear anymore. I frequently remember somehow and step back. Its like i am infected in a good sense. I don't know if this makes any sense to you, but it is interesting.

It makes sense. Now, do you find a self in experience?

I can't really answer that question yet. What is a self anyway? Sometimes it seems that other people and places and the feelings that go with them are as much my self as the inside.

I can't really answer that question yet.

A self is this "I" that you keep referring to. Yes we have to use language, but is that "I" real? It is a thought, but it found in our direct experience?

Sometimes it seems that other people and places and the feelings that go with them are as much my self as the inside.

It's a nice seeing, but notice how it's still claimed as "myself". Where is it in experience? Or is it just a thought?

We are testing it against reality to see if it has reality or if it's pure imagination.

I once saw a video by Richard Sylvester on youtube, where he said, that there is absolutly nothing that can be done to attain liberation exept for maybe relaxing. Maybe being the emphasized word. Kinda discouraging.

Would you mind to tell me how "it" happend to you?

In my search for a self it appears like thoughts just arrise not beeing thought by anybody but there is some kind of instace that resonates with it. some week little beeing that has to handle all the stuff that rains down on him on its head. That tries to protect it self by commentating rationalizing and disputing everything. I don't know, if it is a self, but it feels like somebody.

It's a nice seeing, but notice how it's still claimed as "myself". Where is it in experience? Or is it just a thought?

It is in unpleasant feeling for instance. fear, sadness, anger. The more of the like is there the more it feels like there is a self.

Greets

Ben

Will post soon.

okay

Hey,

Sorry for the wait. I am moving apartments and it's been kind of an ordeal which hasn't allowed me to sit down at my computer much the past few days.

I once saw a video by Richard Sylvester on youtube, where he said, that there is absolutly nothing that can be done to attain liberation exept for maybe relaxing. Maybe being the emphasized word. Kinda discouraging.

That's a pretty accurate description. Except I'd say that there is not a 'you' to relax. And the relaxation is more of a byproduct of the seeing then the actual seeing.

Would you mind to tell me how "it" happend to you?

Sure. I was 19 when I started searching. Did that for about a year-2 years. At 21 I found out about LU and came here. I was guided like you are being guided right now. During the session the 'aha' if you want to call it that was noticing that all this 'me' is, is an arising thought. There isnt actually a personal self here. There is a sense of me. Meaning that there are times when it feels like a me is here, but there is never actually one here. It's an illusion. So that's why when guiding you I am so adamant that the seeing is noticing you aren't going to see it. But it is because 'you' is an illusion lol. There's not a getting it or not getting it. Nor a gaining or losing. It's neither because the one who would have either is not.

In my search for a self it appears like thoughts just arrise not beeing thought by anybody but there is some kind of instace that resonates with it. some week little beeing that has to handle all the stuff that rains down on him on its head. That tries to protect it self by commentating rationalizing and disputing everything. I don't know, if it is a self, but it feels like somebody.

YES, All it is is an arising thought. And yes the thoughts are being caused by anybody. They simply just arise and then disappear. If we could control it wouldn't we just think positive all the time with no effort?

As for that feeling you're speaking of, just take some attention to it. Is it telling you a story or is it simply a sensation we label afterwards as fear etc. Really take a look.

Best,
Cody

It is in unpleasant feeling for instance. fear, sadness, anger. The more of the like is there the more it feels like there is a self.

Thanks for your lengthy answer. What can i say, keep "looking". Maybe it clicks one day.

One interesting thing, that maybe won't help a lot but is interesting anyway is the fact, that strong feelings of "self" always happen in connection with people, things and situations, that actualy aren't "myself". When i am alone the self can step back easier. When i think of my work place or my famly or stuff like that the "me-feeling" gets much stronger. In a way that proofs, that there is no self :). The "self" obviously needs something that it can relate to and create some kind of friction.

YES, All it is is an arising thought. And yes the thoughts are being caused by anybody. They simply just arise and then disappear. If we could control it wouldn't we just think positive all the time with no effort?

You mean they are not caused by anybody right?

Best,

Ben

[quote]One interesting thing, that maybe won't help a lot but is interesting anyway is the fact, that strong feelings of "self" always happen in connection with people, things and situations, that actualy aren't "myself". When i am alone the self can step back easier. When i think of my work place or my famly or stuff like that the "me-feeling" gets much stronger. In a way that proofs, that there is no self :). The "self" obviously needs something that it can relate to and create some kind of friction./quote]

Yes :) Nice. It's usually because while we are alone there ins't any sort of relating going on. It's a habit to believe you're a self in relation to other people. What other people usually do is hit the conditioning that is attached to the imaginary I-thought and so it feels stronger. However, even though they do that the self is still just a thought.

But now if it's seen to be just a thought conditioning can start to fall away.

[quote]You mean they are not caused by anybody right?/quote]

You tell me, can the "someone" who is causing the thoughts be found? Or does it more seem like they just arise on their own and fall away.