Second time here - guidance needed :)

[JamesM]

Hi Tanya!

Hope you had a good time :)

How are things going? Good, bad, normal, I guess there are many ways how to label them. Anyway, back to business:

So, can you notice that 'thought' is saying this is going to get tricky? Can thought make decisions like this? Investigate what thought actually is. Remember what you have already proved to yourself here. Thought content are stories, and stories don't decide for themselves, or control the outcome. There might be a story about controlling the outcome, but does the mere thought actual do that?

Thoughts are only stories that don't have any power or control. They can't make any decisions.

Keep doing this exercise and keep on proving it to yourself.

I feel like adding the "I" in the sentences is adding something extra.

So how can they be noticed if there is nothing to notice them? What might that be? If not self, me, I, then what is noticing?

I really don't know. Noticing them happens automatically. In DE I don't find what is noticing them.

Sit and figure out why you think it is hard to 'accept' everything happens automatically. What do you find?

Some things came up: There is the fear of losing "self-control", fear of losing the "planner", if there are no "self"-thoughts things would go badly. But at same time this seems stupid, where are these "I" thoughts needed?

There is also sadness thinking that family, loved ones are "robots" who don't have choice.

And if there is no I, how can I know what will happen? I might make bad decisions.

Sit with this until it really becomes known.

Sometimes it seems clearer that all self thought are self referential than other times.

And what will happen if there is never an earth shattering moment? :) Will you accept that you have seen it? It is the most simple thing to do James, but I understand it is a little harder to accept, and that is because it feels too easy. When you get this you will absolutely slap your forehead and laugh! You see this perspective every single day.

I do? :) Then it is really subtle thing. But yes, there are clearly some expectations but I am not waiting for anything earth shattering.

Is 'I' trying to control this moment?
Is 'I' trying to think it is itself directing this moment?
Is 'I' trying to claim ownership of the doing of what is happening in this moment?
Is 'I' taking responsibility for anything that is happening in this moment?

When you hit on a yes, take a step back and observe if there really is a self there - really look at the block; is it a thought story? A fear? Doubt? Can't believe it is just this simple?. Keep on doing this exercise until you feel something click for you :)

Hitting a lot of yes answers.

It's strange, on Saturday I was reading Gateless Gatecrashers and suddenly a feeling of happiness/relaxation came. I stayed for day and then went away. I know we are not looking for "state" here but just thought I would mention it.

Last couple of days I've felt frustrated. I've tried poking me-concept from different directions without success. Yesterday I went running but couldn't find "I" that would have commanded the legs. And there is now "I" who I can find feeling things.

But back to present moment.

I have few questions that I cannot answer.

If I have eyes open and look at something, there is feeling of "awareness" (maybe that is just a label?), but if there is no I, who is aware? You asked what notices thoughts, but moreover, what notices anything?

Is there any entity living this "my" life? There seems to be two choices, No-one is living at all or there is something living but there is no control over it.

It seems like if I try to predict my next thought, I cannot get it. But there seems to be a possibility of repeating same word over and over again which is somehow "controllable". What am I missing here? I cannot predict when I will have thought "repeat this word over and over again" or what the word is or even when I stop but still it feels "controllable". Help!

And what is this "inner talk" or the voice I have when I read something?

You speak about the simplicity of this. If "I" focus on what is happening it seems that things are happening on their own. How simple are we talking about?

Sorry, I seem to have more questions than answers :(

Thanks for the guidance :)

James

[Tanya-D]

Hi James :)

I love your enthusiasm, so off we go!

Thoughts are only stories that don't have any power or control. They can't make any decisions.

Correct! :) They have absolutely no power at all. It is the illusory self that thinks that it's own thinking is in control.

I really don't know. Noticing them happens automatically. In DE I don't find what is noticing them.

Your best answer so far! :) So, what is this 'automatic'ness' all about? Check that out? What is it? If you had to relate 'noticing happens automatically' to direct experience, what would you find?

Some things came up: There is the fear of losing "self-control", fear of losing the "planner", if there are no "self"-thoughts things would go badly. But at same time this seems stupid, where are these "I" thoughts needed?
There is also sadness thinking that family, loved ones are "robots" who don't have choice.
And if there is no I, how can I know what will happen? I might make bad decisions.

Oh well done, James! :) This is where the sticking point is . . .losing control and the fear attached to that. That is very expected and normal at this stage. We all go through discomfort and fear of letting go.
OK, so you already know that self is just an illusion, so who has ever been in control? And so far, there has been a belief in self-thoughts, so tell me, has everything gone absolutely your way, so far? :) No? So, why think that seeing through the illusion of self will make things go badly?

Your family and loved ones are made of the same stuff. Life! They're not robots any more than you are. Life is just being experienced through separate bodies.

And your last point, 'If there is no I . . .I might make bad decisions. :) This is a contradiction. If there is no 'I', how can a 'you' do anything? Including make bad decisions?

I do? :) Then it is really subtle thing. But yes, there are clearly some expectations but I am not waiting for anything earth shattering.

Ahuh, you do :) Every moment of every single day. Because IT IS YOU! It cannot be any other way. There is nothing else outside of IT. Seriously, really root out these expectations for yourself. They really are a pain on this journey, and act like little ego traps. :)

It's strange, on Saturday I was reading Gateless Gatecrashers and suddenly a feeling of happiness/relaxation came. I stayed for day and then went away. I know we are not looking for "state" here but just thought I would mention it.

Yes, that was a wonderful state :) but not absolute knowing of no-self. Good states come and go, as does all emotions, experiences etc. That kind of energy is the movement of Life itself - which is ALL YOU ARE :) and it just happens to be dragging a body around that goes by the name of James, to interact in this 3D world, right now.

Last couple of days I've felt frustrated. I've tried poking me-concept from different directions without success. Yesterday I went running but couldn't find "I" that would have commanded the legs. And there is now "I" who I can find feeling things.

There is a saying that goes, 'The Truth will set you free, but first it will p*ss you off!' :)

Good! You couldn't find the 'I' that commanded the legs, because there isn't an 'I' - only Life commanding those legs. Tell me more about ' And there is now "I" who I can find feeling things.' What do you mean here?

If I have eyes open and look at something, there is feeling of "awareness" (maybe that is just a label?), but if there is no I, who is aware? You asked what notices thoughts, but moreover, what notices anything?

Excellent! Wow! :) Awareness is direct experience, isn't it? The word awareness is a label, yes, but the experience of awareness is pure sensation, isn't it? We might even call it aliveness. That knowing that we are here. We cannot put words, or ideas to this. It is just a knowing, isn't it? So tell me, 'what notices anything' you mention above? :)

Is there any entity living this "my" life? There seems to be two choices, No-one is living at all or there is something living but there is no control over it.

Execellent investigating! What is that 'something' living but there is no control over it?' Really investigate that, right there. :)

It seems like if I try to predict my next thought, I cannot get it. But there seems to be a possibility of repeating same word over and over again which is somehow "controllable". What am I missing here? I cannot predict when I will have thought "repeat this word over and over again" or what the word is or even when I stop but still it feels "controllable". Help!

Deep breath :) All thought arises out of the same place as all decision, action and choice. There is no 'I' or 'self' making anything happen. The is just an intelligence, an energy, a movement, Life, Awareness (all those words for the same thing) that moves in its own direction. Take a look at what is watching this. Notice 'who' or 'what' these thoughts arise to. There is no you, then to what? It is important to remember that 'the mind' just describes experience. So if you ponder this a while, you will notice that experience has already happened and happened before the mind tells 'us' what it all means. We understand after it has happened.

And what is this "inner talk" or the voice I have when I read something?

Oooh, I had this one, too! Watch it, and tell me what you think it is? :) If I give you all the answers, then you won't have a valid 'aha' moment.

You speak about the simplicity of this. If "I" focus on what is happening it seems that things are happening on their own. How simple are we talking about?

As simple as asking a fish where the sea is :) I say it not to frustrate you, but to help you realise it isn't as contrived or as difficult as the mind, self, or I makes it into.
Imagine for a moment, that this Awareness used 'your' body like a glove puppet, and it had gotten sooooooo good at it, that it believed the glove puppet was what was in control. Awareness had deluded itself for a while. Awareness is absolutely asleep in the 'dream', the 'illusion'. When it realises it is wearing the glove puppet, that is when Awareness awakens and has that moment of realisation that the glove puppet is not in control :)

Sorry, I seem to have more questions than answers :(
Thanks for the guidance :)

You are doing fine, and it is a pleasure to guide you. Also, I am noticing that our replies are getting longer and longer, so let me know if it feels a little overwhelming to have so much to think through. We can condense it if we need to.

Catch you soon,

Tanya

[JamesM]

Hi Tanya! :)

Your best answer so far! :) So, what is this 'automatic'ness' all about? Check that out? What is it? If you had to relate 'noticing happens automatically' to direct experience, what would you find?

I still don't know! :)

Let's see. Thoughts are images or words which "pop up". Sometimes they go unnoticed for quite a while, then suddenly "consciousness" or noticing of them happen. This seems to happen automatically, although sometimes thought like "try to catch thoughts" happen and then these thoughts are noticed more frequently. I don't find anything/anyone noticing them like I don't find anything/anyone creating them.

Oh well done, James! :) This is where the sticking point is . . .losing control and the fear attached to that. That is very expected and normal at this stage. We all go through discomfort and fear of letting go.
OK, so you already know that self is just an illusion, so who has ever been in control? And so far, there has been a belief in self-thoughts, so tell me, has everything gone absolutely your way, so far? :) No? So, why think that seeing through the illusion of self will make things go badly?

Pretty good questions :) I really cannot answer.

And your last point, 'If there is no I . . .I might make bad decisions. :) This is a contradiction. If there is no 'I', how can a 'you' do anything? Including make bad decisions?

Oh, sorry! I meant this whatever is living instead of I.

Good! You couldn't find the 'I' that commanded the legs, because there isn't an 'I' - only Life commanding those legs. Tell me more about ' And there is now "I" who I can find feeling things.' What do you mean here?

Sorry, typo there. "And there is no "I" who I can find feeling things."

But here I run into exception again: Why don't I freak out when fingers are typing and legs are moving without anyonethat seem to control them?

Excellent! Wow! :) Awareness is direct experience, isn't it? The word awareness is a label, yes, but the experience of awareness is pure sensation, isn't it? We might even call it aliveness. That knowing that we are here. We cannot put words, or ideas to this. It is just a knowing, isn't it? So tell me, 'what notices anything' you mention above? :)

I don't know!! :) It just happens automatically, these feelings, thoughts or whatever get noticed.

Execellent investigating! What is that 'something' living but there is no control over it?' Really investigate that, right there. :)

I didn't get time to do this but like I wrote, if "I" eg. walk, no matter how much I look at who is walking I can't find anything.

Oooh, I had this one, too! Watch it, and tell me what you think it is? :) If I give you all the answers, then you won't have a valid 'aha' moment.

I didn't get an "aha" moment :) not yet at least. The only thing which it looks like to be at the moment is just thought, as I cannot think anything at the same time this inner talk is going (similar like it doesn't seem to be possible to think two things at the same time).

You are doing fine, and it is a pleasure to guide you. Also, I am noticing that our replies are getting longer and longer, so let me know if it feels a little overwhelming to have so much to think through. We can condense it if we need to.

Actually, something like this might be a good idea, since it's 1) easy to lost track of what I wrote and 2) where I should focus :) If I'm eg. eating I am at the same time trying to observe who is moving the hand, and what is aware of thoughts and how do I experience "I", it's too much to handle at the same time :)

So should we focus on one or two or three things at time?

Thanks again.

James

[Tanya-D]

Hi James :)

Yes, we'll condense and investigate around thoughts and control.

So just answer the following about thoughts:

The "self" or "I" is just a thought. A thought that doesn't even appear in every sentence! It is constantly forgotten throughout the day - engrossed in a movie for instance. The "I" thought is not you, so WHAT IS YOU? Look in your experience and tell me what you find.

In fact can you find ANY thought in your direct experience??
The 'self' will persist for a while. We use it for daily life. We are just together here looking to see if it actually exists. This is really about just seeing that all the self is, are thoughts. That's it. So even if you use it in daily life, there is a knowing that ultimately there isn't a self.

Bring attention back to just this moment and look again to see if you can find a self. Look in the five senses. Is there any proof whatsoever that there is one? So what is there that see all this?
Do you notice the lack of a self? (This doesn't mean the self as a thought won't pop up during the day, it just means it holds NO reality in our actual experience. It is just a thought.

A simple exercises to observe how choosing happens:

Wait until you're thirsty. Set out two glasses with different refreshing beverages (anything at all, water and tea, milk and juice, whatever you like). Sit in front of them. Allow the desire for one to arise. Imagine what it would be like to drink it. Allow the desire to subside. Allow the desire for the other one to arise. Imagine what it would be like to drink it. Allow the desire to subside. Wait a few seconds. Reach out your hand, pick up a glass, and drink.

What happened? Did you observe a cause behind the choice? (If so, describe the cause in detail. What did it look like, sound like, feel like, taste like, smell like?) Did you observe a decider? (If so, describe the decider in detail. What did it look like, sound like, feel like, taste like, smell like?) Or was it simply a spontaneous movement with no observable cause or decider?

Is there any self, I, controller anywhere?

Take your time on the above. If you don't have answers tomorrow, just drop me a line and tell me your still working through them.

Tanya

[JamesM]

Hi Tanya,

Sorry for the late reply! :( I'll definitely need some more time to investigate.

Meanwhile, could you clarify that when you write "can you find ANY thought in your direct experience??" do you mean the content of thought or thougth in general?


Thanks,

James

[Tanya-D]

Hi James,

No worries. Please take your time . . . :)

"can you find ANY thought in your direct experience??" do you mean the content of thought or thougth in general? Investigate both perspectives and tell me what you find.

Catch you soon,

Tanya

[JamesM]

Hi Tanya!

So just answer the following about thoughts:

The "self" or "I" is just a thought. A thought that doesn't even appear in every sentence! It is constantly forgotten throughout the day - engrossed in a movie for instance. The "I" thought is not you, so WHAT IS YOU? Look in your experience and tell me what you find.

Hmm, it's hard to describe, but I got a sense of "intelligence" living for a while when I read this the first time. It felt like thoughts are not needed for living. But the sense/feeling went away. It seems that thoughts drown it out quite quickly.

In fact can you find ANY thought in your direct experience??

Thought yes, content no. There are thoughts, but every content of thought is imaginary.

Bring attention back to just this moment and look again to see if you can find a self. Look in the five senses. Is there any proof whatsoever that there is one? So what is there that see all this?

Do you notice the lack of a self?

There are feelings and thoughts but I don't find self. But to point out, I don't get the same "feeling" that there definitely is not experiencer like I got at that one time (I know we are not looking for that feeling but just to point it out). And no, I do not notice lack of self.

What happened? Did you observe a cause behind the choice? (If so, describe the cause in detail. What did it look like, sound like, feel like, taste like, smell like?) Did you observe a decider? (If so, describe the decider in detail. What did it look like, sound like, feel like, taste like, smell like?) Or was it simply a spontaneous movement with no observable cause or decider?

I didn't observe a cause and couldn't find a decider. hand just moved without any consultation of thoughts or anything.

Is there any self, I, controller anywhere?

I "feel" some "resistance" when I ponder this. Is every of my movement automatic with no controller whatsoever?

Thanks!

James

[Tanya-D]

Hi James! :)

Hmm, it's hard to describe, but I got a sense of "intelligence" living for a while when I read this the first time. It felt like thoughts are not needed for living. But the sense/feeling went away. It seems that thoughts drown it out quite quickly.

Well done! That is exactly what is happening. It is common to have a clear senseof it one minute, and then for it to become muddied again. The clear seeing becomes more clear the deeper you 'look' through the interference of thought content. 'Intelligence' is as a good a name as any for the myriad names given to The Truth. :) So, you got it!
So tell me now, what observes these thoughts?

There are feelings and thoughts but I don't find self. But to point out, I don't get the same "feeling" that there definitely is not experiencer like I got at that one time (I know we are not looking for that feeling but just to point it out). And no, I do not notice lack of self.

Tell me what happened during that 'one time' feeling of no experiencer.

I didn't observe a cause and couldn't find a decider. hand just moved without any consultation of thoughts or anything.

Good. So what does that suggest to you?

I "feel" some "resistance" when I ponder this. Is every of my movement automatic with no controller whatsoever?

Resistance is a good sign that you are looking in the right direction. Excellent question! :) So is every movement automatic with no controller?

Catch you soon, James. Enjoy your evening.

Tanya

[JamesM]

Hi Tanya! :)

So tell me now, what observes these thoughts?

I know that this is probably the worst answer I can give but: I don't know. It's hard to find this "what" or "who" observes the thoughts. Most thoughts seem to happen by their own ("subconsciously") and later "mind" or whatever notes that there were thoughts. Kind of like waking up from a daydream. Then if I close my eyes and think of something particular ("consciously") I don't find thinker directly. Inner talk seems automatic (impossible to predict the next word) but.. I don't know what observes it.

Tell me what happened during that 'one time' feeling of no experiencer.

I mentioned about it briefly in first page I think :) What happened was I consulted my senses and didn't find an experiencer. Then suddenly it felt like it's totally futile to try to find experiencer in experience, kind of like trying to find awaken person in dream :) and then I saw some of my thoughts as stories. But the feeling went away the next day and I couldn't reach it anymore.

Good. So what does that suggest to you?

Well, it suggests that there is no "decider" deciding about anything...

So is every movement automatic with no controller?

..stuck... If I stand and try to predict when I will move I cannot do it. Which would suggest that there is not a controller. But to say it happens totally automatically is..I lets say "can't fanthom" it.. It's like.. even when I see it happening "automatically" it's hard to "believe" (wrong word I know!) it happening auutomatically.. help?


Thanks for the guidance,

James

[Tanya-D]

Hi James :)

I know that this is probably the worst answer I can give but: I don't know. It's hard to find this "what" or "who" observes the thoughts. Most thoughts seem to happen by their own ("subconsciously") and later "mind" or whatever notes that there were thoughts. Kind of like waking up from a daydream. Then if I close my eyes and think of something particular ("consciously") I don't find thinker directly. Inner talk seems automatic (impossible to predict the next word) but.. I don't know what observes it.

Exactly! Thoughts happen on their own. And then mind pops in to describe it - to give it a story. So are you happy now you have seen through there being no thinker?

I mentioned about it briefly in first page I think :) What happened was I consulted my senses and didn't find an experiencer. Then suddenly it felt like it's totally futile to try to find experiencer in experience, kind of like trying to find awaken person in dream :) and then I saw some of my thoughts as stories. But the feeling went away the next day and I couldn't reach it anymore.

This is very, very usual, James. To have seen it, then for it to disappear. Non-duality types call this 'I had it, I lost it' :) If you really stop and observe this, wasn't it just a thought that said you had lost it - that you couldn't reach it anymore? Self thoughts can get a bit sticky, and often are still wafting around even after crashing the gate. There are LU groups on Facebook that we encourage new gate-crashees to join so they can continue working through beliefs and sticky stuff. What I'd like you to do is go back to this time, before it went away, and remember what experience was happening then? What was it like? Write it in detail, please.

..stuck... If I stand and try to predict when I will move I cannot do it. Which would suggest that there is not a controller. But to say it happens totally automatically is..I lets say "can't fanthom" it.. It's like.. even when I see it happening "automatically" it's hard to "believe" (wrong word I know!) it happening auutomatically.. help?

You have already seen it! Yes, it is automatic in the sense that there is no James, or Tanya doing anything here. Automatic happenings are the direct experience. There is no controller, thinker, doer . . . just Life which you've seen as automatic happenings . . . :)

I think your expectation of what it 'should' be like is getting in the way here. So,tell me how you think this 'seeing through the illusion of self' should be? Again, give me as much detail as you can.

If you need more time to really describe what I've asked you to do, then take it. There is no rush. Just let me know.

You're doing well :) Keep pushing through.

Tanya

[JamesM]

Hi Tanya,

I'll get back to you tomorrow :)


James

[Tanya-D]

OK James :)

Catch you tomorrow

Tanya

[JamesM]

Hi Tanya :)

So are you happy now you have seen through there being no thinker?

Well, there is still some doubt about it left. Particularly towards "inner talk". Maybe because this "inner talk" usually contains "I" sentences.

What I'd like you to do is go back to this time, before it went away, and remember what experience was happening then? What was it like? Write it in detail, please.

I consulted seeing, hearing, feeling (tasting, smelling) and didn't find seer, hearer, feeler (taster, smeller). I also came to conclusion that the seeing, hearing, feeling (tasting, smelling) happened automatically, without no "I". And finally it seemed like there was no dividing line between seer and seeing, between hearer and hearing, between feeler and feeling etc. That is, feeling brought the "feeler" into existence. Thus, it felt like all there was was experience, and no experiencer to experience it.

In fact I pondered about this today and reached the question "How can experience experience that there is no experiencer", similar to your point that it's not possible to see no-I because I does not exist. But "I" feel like "I" still don't KNOW this, I just reach it intellectually.

So,tell me how you think this 'seeing through the illusion of self' should be? Again, give me as much detail as you can.

Maybe I am waiting or searching for that "click" or sureness that there is no I. At the moment the sticky parts seem to be "inner talk" and the idea of "controller". I try to poke them from different directions but sometimes they seem like hill to be climbed to see that they just are automatic things.


Thank you again.

James

[Tanya-D]

Hi James :)

Well, there is still some doubt about it left. Particularly towards "inner talk". Maybe because this "inner talk" usually contains "I" sentences.

You already told me that 'I' is just a thought :) So, what should it be like?

I consulted seeing, hearing, feeling (tasting, smelling) and didn't find seer, hearer, feeler (taster, smeller). I also came to conclusion that the seeing, hearing, feeling (tasting, smelling) happened automatically, without no "I". And finally it seemed like there was no dividing line between seer and seeing, between hearer and hearing, between feeler and feeling etc. That is, feeling brought the "feeler" into existence. Thus, it felt like all there was was experience, and no experiencer to experience it.

That is it, right there! What is in the way of 'knowing' this again?

In fact I pondered about this today and reached the question "How can experience experience that there is no experiencer", similar to your point that it's not possible to see no-I because I does not exist. But "I" feel like "I" still don't KNOW this, I just reach it intellectually.

Again, what is answering here? More thought stories?

Maybe I am waiting or searching for that "click" or sureness that there is no I. At the moment the sticky parts seem to be "inner talk" and the idea of "controller". I try to poke them from different directions but sometimes they seem like hill to be climbed to see that they just are automatic things.

Read your answer above again - when you had it! Was there a click then? WHO or what wants or needs the click to happen now?

I want you to really observe thought content/stories for 20 minutes or so. Watch them like you are watching TV. Answer where they come from? Where do they go? Is 'I' in there controlling anything? What is there? What is this inner talk really? A verbal stream of consciousness that thinks in words?

Catch you soon

Tanya

[JamesM]

Hi Tanya!

You already told me that 'I' is just a thought :) So, what should it be like?

List of (unrealistic) expectations:
-Inner talk containing phrases with "I" should stop
-Every movement should seem automatic with no "I"-thought claiming it.

That is it, right there! What is in the way of 'knowing' this again?

Nothing. Back to work it is then.

Again, what is answering here? More thought stories?

Black moment --> Thought stories.

Was there a click then? WHO or what wants or needs the click to happen now?

No who, but feeling which thought interpretes as a frustration and adds it own comments.

I want you to really observe thought content/stories for 20 minutes or so. Watch them like you are watching TV. Answer where they come from? Where do they go? Is 'I' in there controlling anything? What is there? What is this inner talk really? A verbal stream of consciousness that thinks in words?

Sorry, need more time for this. Initial answers: Come from nowhere, go to nowhere, no controller, and three I don't knows.


Thank you,

James