May I have a guide?

[Damon Kamda]

Okay I can't find anything that makes a choice/decision.

Sometimes I feel more conscious of 'making a decision' than other times, but I can't find anything behind it.

Decision can happen on a body level (i.e. the body moves to a meeting or grabs a banana) or a thought can say 'take a banana' and the body does it. If the thought is there, that's what I mean about 'feeling more conscious' about the decision. But the thought doesn't 'make the decision'. I can't get behind the thought/action to identify where it comes from.

Allright then! Good looking, Giulietta...

Then what actually do the words "making a decision" mean? Would it be fair to say that decisions simply arise and the thought "I did that" comes after?

Or are there varying degrees of volition?

I'll be off the grid for a day or three starting in half an hour or so (until Sunday, basically), so there's a possibility that I won't be able to login until then, just wanted to let you know this, so I'll give you some things to look into:

You've mentioned the body quite a bit. The body as the space where feelings happen, where decisions and thoughts arise, but you've also mentioned sensations "bigger than the body".

It's the body that I'm inviting you to explore. What in experience does this word refer to (if it refers at all)?

Where does the body begin and where does it end, are there any boundaries to the body?
What is outside of the body?

How do you relate to the body?
How does experience relate to the body?

Enjoy the exploration, and talk to you soon!

Warm regards...

[DancingCat]

Thanks for letting me know about being off the grid!

Well, it does give me some time to take a good look at the body.

Thanks for your help so far. =)

[DancingCat]

Then what actually do the words "making a decision" mean? Would it be fair to say that decisions simply arise and the thought "I did that" comes after?

Or are there varying degrees of volition?

Feels like varying degrees of awareness of the decision being made.
Not sure what 'makes the decision' and I'm beginning to see the overlap of choice and habit (or ... maybe they are the same).
Not sure anything is 'making a decision' I do feel like I 'notice a decision happening' on different levels.

It's the body that I'm inviting you to explore. What in experience does this word refer to (if it refers at all)?

Where does the body begin and where does it end, are there any boundaries to the body?

I would say some sensations are 'in my body'. A stiff jaw, an aching back muscle. But a freedom, and expansive feeling is there 'in my body' (for example when I do a 'body scan', concentrating on moving through the body mentally from head to toe)- but that expansive feeling does not feel bounded by my body.

I identify sensations (heart beating, sore muscle) in the physical body, but feelings feel different. Big, somehow, limitless and rolling- moving, not as static as a sore muscle ...

I hope you had a good day or few offline.

[Damon Kamda]

I hope you had a good day or few offline.

Yes, thank you! Fully recharged. It's nice to spend some time away from computers and the internet...! Hope you're doing good as well.

Not sure anything is 'making a decision' I do feel like I 'notice a decision happening' on different levels.

Could you illustrate this by describing how this is experienced when an apparently simple decision (like "coffee or tea" or "left or right" is being made)?

Now concerning the questions about the body, there's still some of them I'd like you to look at a bit further:

Where does the body begin and where does it end, are there any boundaries to the body?
What is outside of the body?

How do you relate to the body?
How does experience relate to the body?

Especially in connection to what you wrote here:

I would say some sensations are 'in my body'. A stiff jaw, an aching back muscle. But a freedom, and expansive feeling is there 'in my body' (for example when I do a 'body scan', concentrating on moving through the body mentally from head to toe)- but that expansive feeling does not feel bounded by my body.

If you take the whole field of experience, in its totality, how does the body show up in that field? As what?

Where do sensations take place?

Where is "a stiff jaw" experienced?
From where is "a stiff jaw" experienced?

How do you (or "how does a you") relate to that experience?

[DancingCat]

Hi!

I'm alright- though I'm in my last two weeks at work, and it's kind of draining. I'm really looking forward to free time!

Could you illustrate this by describing how this is experienced when an apparently simple decision (like "coffee or tea" or "left or right" is being made)?

In a way this simple choice is the most difficult to see what's happening! It is so subtle and quick. I think what I've noticed is a body opening, a sense of relaxing and opening, to the way 'I want to go' (i.e. left or right'). I look left, then feel the opening, and go that way.

A 'level up' might be- I feel myself wanting to go left (the opening) but my thoughts say 'actually I forgot my mug'. So I stop and feel a new pull/opening back to my desk. This I would say involves a new level of 'awareness' as with the first simple decision, I might not even have been aware of 'a decision happening'.

If you take the whole field of experience, in its totality, how does the body show up in that field? As what?

I'm aware of pulsing sensations, seemingly focused where I think my body is.

Where do sensations take place?

I can, for example, feel pulsing in my leg.

Where is "a stiff jaw" experienced?
From where is "a stiff jaw" experienced?

Now this gets trickier! I have an awareness of a stiff jaw. Awareness feels like it is around the vicinity of my head.

How do you (or "how does a you") relate to that experience?

[/quote]

When I 'tune into it' (bring awareness to it) it is there. But I am not always aware of the sensation. It's like dialing a radio dial and picking up the signal.

[Damon Kamda]

It is so subtle and quick

Yes, it is! That's why it's so valuable (and often tricky) to examine this in such detail.

To get to the heart of this particular matter- can you find, in your experience- a "decider" in charge of making decisions? A chooser?

I'm aware of pulsing sensations, seemingly focused where I think my body is.
(...)
I can, for example, feel pulsing in my leg.

So, the body shows up as awareness of pulsing sensations?

Now this gets trickier! I have an awareness of a stiff jaw. Awareness feels like it is around the vicinity of my head.

Yes, this is where it gets trickier.
Apparently.
On the other hand, this is really quite simple.
(So ridiculously simple and obvious, in fact, that mind will not accept it...)

Hmmm... So awareness is around the vicinity of your head?

How does "your head" show up in experience? What part of the head is awareness in?

There's several more questions that your earlier post brings up, but for now this should be enough.

[DancingCat]

To get to the heart of this particular matter- can you find, in your experience- a "decider" in charge of making decisions? A chooser?

No, I cannot.

So, the body shows up as awareness of pulsing sensations?

Not only. There are sometimes rolling, melting sensations too. And I can see the body- see the limbs and skin.

How does "your head" show up in experience? What part of the head is awareness in?

I am not sure how the head shows up. Certainly feelings like the stiff jaw seem to be in my head. My eyes are in the head and see, ears hear.

It actually feels like awareness is outside of the head.

[Damon Kamda]

So, you are unable to find a chooser or decider in your experience? Are you absolutely sure? If so: what are the implications of that?

Not only. There are sometimes rolling, melting sensations too. And I can see the body- see the limbs and skin.

Could we simply say that "the body" manifests in experience as various types of sensations- as pulsations, rolling and melting sensations as well as visual sensations?

If the body is simply sensations, then how can the body make choices, how can the body act, how can the body be said to do anything at all?

I am not sure how the head shows up. Certainly feelings like the stiff jaw seem to be in my head. My eyes are in the head and see, ears hear.

Wait, wait- you are going too fast here.

Can you describe the actual experience of the head as it shows up right now?

Do you experience the eyes?
Do you you experience the eyes doing the seeing?
Do you experience the ears?
Do you experience the ears doing the hearing?

It actually feels like awareness is outside of the head.

Really? Where, then, is awareness located?

These questions are simply an invitation to look at what's actually going on., what has always been going on. In the common sense, everyday way of speaking and thinking we assume that experience is something like this (simplified, there are various ways of describing this:

me<---->sense doors<--->sensory input<---->object

That is essentially what you are describing to me, right?

Now, the invitation is to look again to see if that model is in any way corroborated by actual experience.

[DancingCat]

So, you are unable to find a chooser or decider in your experience? Are you absolutely sure? If so: what are the implications of that?

If there is a chooser, I can't detect it. Somehow I feel I tune into a choice- the body tells 'me' the choice. It is unsettling. It is freeing in addition to being unsettling. I think I just have to listen, and choices will be clear.

If the body is simply sensations, then how can the body make choices, how can the body act, how can the body be said to do anything at all?

It feels like the body is part of something 'bigger'- it is connected, part of, the world? Life? I notice how I feel different sensations depending who I am with, what the environment is like. I think the body may be going with the flow- life moves and the body moves with it.

Do you experience the eyes?
Do you you experience the eyes doing the seeing?

I can feel the eyes in my head. If they are tired I can feel my eyelids as heavy. I do have a visual picture of the world that exists when my eyes are open, goes away when my eyes are closed.

me<---->sense doors<--->sensory input<---->object

It doesn't sound right. What is the 'me'- I don't find one. I would say there is:

Sensing (touch, sight)
Movement (opening, resisting of the body, moving towards, moving away)
Energy (flow felt in the body, running through the body)

All this talk of awareness ... I am not sure what it is nor where. Can I find 'awareness'? I have a sense of looking, listening. I am not sure where that sense really is.

Perhaps there isn't awareness. Just senses, movement, energy? 'Objects' will have their own sense, movement, energy ... But how this body senses them is probably limited and not as they really are.

[Damon Kamda]

If there is a chooser, I can't detect it. Somehow I feel I tune into a choice- the body tells 'me' the choice. It is unsettling. It is freeing in addition to being unsettling. I think I just have to listen, and choices will be clear.

Beautiful!

It feels like the body is part of something 'bigger'- it is connected, part of, the world? Life?

Can "the body"- all these various sensations- actually be experienced as separate from the world, the whole? Is there any separation at all?

All this talk of awareness ... I am not sure what it is nor where. Can I find 'awareness'? I have a sense of looking, listening. I am not sure where that sense really is. Perhaps there isn't awareness. Just senses, movement, energy?

Again- good looking!!!

From what you write here in response to all these questions it seems to me as if you probably indeed are already seeing what it is we guide towards- that separation is an illusion. What's your take on that? How do you see this?

[DancingCat]

I think that, yes, I have seen the connectedness, the beautiful connectedness and flow. I maybe have not completely accepted that I have seen this- maybe there are lingering habits like thinking decisions were decided by 'me' before our discussion on that. :). I don't quite know when I realised this about the body being part of, not separate to, the world. But yes, I know this more and more. It seems love and helping others is so important. I feel my life realigning to that. Thank you for clarifying my sight and affirming 'how I see things'!

[Damon Kamda]

maybe there are lingering habits like thinking decisions were decided by 'me' before our discussion on that.

And is there a problem with that?
Do these types of thoughts need to go?

It seems love and helping others is so important. I feel my life realigning to that. Thank you for clarifying my sight and affirming 'how I see things'!

There a series of questions we usually ask here to get an idea of where people are at in terms of seeing what it is we're guiding to here. I'd like to pose these questions to you as well and invite you to rant freely on them. I'll do it step-by-step.

First one:

Can you find any separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever one?

[DancingCat]

And is there a problem with that?
Do these types of thoughts need to go?

The thoughts are just thoughts, but can become a problem if I live life according to them. I would rather live life according to truth, and not get taken in by old habits which could direct my actions.

Can you find any separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever one?

There are certainly sensations attributed to this body, but the body is not separate. I speak and perceive from this body, in part, but other life speaks and feels through it. What could be 'me' and what 'the rest of the world'- I don't think it helps to try and define that. Was there a self? I did think in terms of a self in the past. A something separate to protect. But no, I don't think there ever was a 'self'. I think there was always a seeing of the connected, a happiness when in harmony- I just 'thought' it was because there was a self- i had thoughts like 'I am happy'- I 'got' something' but there was always a friction around those beliefs- like there was a knowledge there that there was more to that story. I never could feel happy when it seemed only 'I' benefitted from something, and I think that is because it was empty- 'I' being connected with everything.

[Damon Kamda]

There are certainly sensations attributed to this body, but the body is not separate. I speak and perceive from this body, in part, but other life speaks and feels through it

I'm not sure if I understand that last part, could you elucidate that?

Also, in what sense are you speaking and perceiving through or from this body? Is the body a container and receiver?

Second question:

Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

[DancingCat]

I am thinking of this body like a part of the sea. Currents run through it, from other parts of the sea. So the body isn't a container, but a location, a 'place' where sensations visit from other places. Speech from this body can reflect a reaction to stubbing this body's toe or perhaps speech/sound is from another place like a song, a song from the whole 'sea' in this analogy. Sea of life?

Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

Sometimes thoughts flare like 'I should work harder than others because I must work hard' and I did, in the past, feel a kind of inferiority. But this does not make any sense when I see the connection between things and how each life is networked, all made of the same beautiful 'stuff of life'. The 'separate self' for me manifests through thoughts like inferiority, or thinking 'I should have a bigger room'- but there is no need. Fear comes up for me sometimes, when speaking to an angry person. But that fear is fear of what? When I look at it, it's just fear. But there is nothing to get hurt, nothing to die. The body can 'die' but actually it just changes, is still part of the sea of life.

So, separate self manifests for me as thoughts and habits.

Experience tells me otherwise, a bigness is there. Sitting here just now, the beauty and bigness makes me laugh- how could I have thought 'I' needed to do so much when everything is just alive, connected, beautiful and as it is?