hoping that now is here - can someone guide me please?

[kgreenbank]

Hi Sunil, Thanks. I'm enjoying your approval. I tried to speak about this process with a friend this morning, who didn't really get it. Feelings of spiritual superiority came up. Not my most attractive feature. Still, there we are, gonna be honest about this in the hope that it is helpful, get it all out and clear it, that kind of thing.

Stopping in the tracks is good. Fear is also good as something is being threatened. What is being threatened? Find out?

What is being threatened is my entire life-long belief system of reality. The reality of a real, separate self. There is palpable fear when this is questioned. I understand this is a pointer. I will try to let the fear be when it appears, invite it closer for examination.

Don't sweep blah, blah....under the carpet. Mind is extremely clever, it will hide its real belief in corners, in words like blah blah or I will get to that later...
Think of the computer. Is there such a thing as a computer or a school, university, a country in direct experience?

Ok let me share my mind talk on this. This mind is a clever, analytical one. It loves to deconstruct. It LOVES to win a debate. It is equating self to exactly the kind of nouns you use. "The reason you can't find a single discreet self is that it is a composite of many things. That is equally true of everything else you identify as 'real'. This computer is 'real'. But what is it but a collection of component parts - casing; screen; circuit boards; microprocessors etc. Those in turn are composed of minerals, plastics... chemical compounds. The chemicals are made of atomic particles, then subatomic, then we are into quantum theory.... The same is true of an apple or a flower. Or even music = notes plus silences, actually pressure waves.... You can't identify ANYTHING as 'real' if you deconstruct it. Of course you can't find a real self, it is a composite of felt senses, memories, thoughts, impulses. The fact that these are not solid is irrelevant. You can't point at music, why do you think you should be able to point at the self?"

Seriously annoying to have this going on all the time Sunil, I tell you. It's quite convincing but I'm glad I wrote it out as I am starting to see through it. No, I can't point at music, but I can play it to anyone else and they will hear it and know that it is real. I can point at my computer and show you that it exists. I have the direct experience of hearing music, and of looking at or touching my computer.

I can't point at a school tho. Only the buildings, teachers, books, exam papers etc. A "school" does not exist. But a computer does. Doesn't it? I wish you had not put that in with university and country etc. That has confused me. Help me out here?

There have been some perception shifts today. You didn't ask me to do this but my attention has repeatedly gone to a question I read another guide pose in another thread. (I'm have stopped reading any since we started this dialogue btw. If you would prefer me to focus only on the questions you ask me please say.). The question was 'where are the boundaries between seer, seeing and the seen?' I have focussed on this a lot today. There does not seem to be a real boundary between seeing and the seen object. Looking closely in this way, there is a shift in perception: the experience of seeing becomes intimate, immediate, kind of 'right here'. Very familiar to previous experiences using psychedelics in fact. (I'm obviously not using anything during this process!) When attention is turned to looking for the separate seer, the mind jumps in with a whole load of persuasive narrative (see above) and a very uncomfortable feeling arises in the solar plexus. And then I stop looking. I see what needs to be done here :-)

I need the answers to all questions. Like are you the body? This is the biggest belief to shake off.

There has also been more observation of the body today. And thoughts like "the hands are washing the dishes", "the body is walking into the garden". I am suspicious that this a game my mind is playing to convince me that it is going along with things.

Am I the body? Definitely not. You could amputate most of me and I'd still be here. I could break my neck and be quadriplegic and I'd still be here. However, the felt sense of ownership of the bodily senses is very strong. (Helpful thoughts arising as I type this that this is called proprioception and is obviously real. Thanks, mind. Now get lost).

What now?

Many thanks, K

[kvotski]

I tried to speak about this process with a friend this morning, who didn't really get it. Feelings of spiritual superiority came up. Not my most attractive feature. Still, there we are, gonna be honest about this in the hope that it is helpful, get it all out and clear it, that kind of thing.

Our behavior has been formed over decades and it's unlikely to change on a dime. Seeing through the illusion of self is humbling so the pride dissipates. Not to worry.

What is being threatened is my entire life-long belief system of reality. The reality of a real, separate self. There is palpable fear when this is questioned. I understand this is a pointer. I will try to let the fear be when it appears, invite it closer for examination.

Locate the sensation of fear in the body. Then question this fear, is it just a sensation caused by a thought? Or is it a real threat. Being chased by a tiger is a threat, real. Losing house in a storm is a real threat. In that light what is this fear. Is it based on something you have adequate proof?

Let's deal with this before we go with a lot of other things you have done which is really ernest seeing.

One source of fear may be what you said earlier. Change in life as you know it. So go back and look at some of critical events in your life, good ones and bad ones. Now look carefully if a belief in the I, me and self did anything to produce the outcome. Mind is going to play but but game so be strict with her.

I will come back with some more after Mother's Day dinner tonight.

[kgreenbank]

Ah, nice, your dinner. Enjoy. Are you a man or a woman? Just curious.

Ok I will look at critical life events as you say. 'Did a belief in the I me and self do anything to produce the outcome?' Interesting question. Will do my best and respond later.

K

[kvotski]

I am a man and the chauffeur to the mother of my children who are buying sushi tonite.

[kgreenbank]

Locate the sensation of fear in the body. Then question this fear, is it just a sensation caused by a thought? Or is it a real threat. Being chased by a tiger is a threat, real. Losing house in a storm is a real threat. In that light what is this fear. Is it based on something you have adequate proof?

Let's deal with this before we go with a lot of other things you have done which is really ernest seeing.

One source of fear may be what you said earlier. Change in life as you know it. So go back and look at some of critical events in your life, good ones and bad ones. Now look carefully if a belief in the I, me and self did anything to produce the outcome. Mind is going to play but but game so be strict with her.

Ok, I won't list the critical events, they're not important in themselves I think, but other than being born, yes, there is a very strong sense that the belief in I, me and self had *everything* to do with the outcome. Life happened - things happened to me, circumstances arose. And then *I* chose how to respond, how to act. I decided to do this, or that, for better or for worse. I have overcome quite a lot of difficult things in my life. I accept responsibility for decisions that have not turned out so well. I am proud of the successes. I identify strongly with the character of being a warrior, a fierce protector of self and children, a winner (so far) in the 'game of life'. Psychotherapy has surfaced a lot of unconscious motivations. I am self aware, I understand myself better than many. I accept *responsibility*. Obviously giving up this belief is as scary as shit. Hmm.

What we are asking here is to drop this belief of personal responsibility and to see it as a fiction; the 'story of me', right? See that decisions were made, actions taken, but not by anyone. They just happened. And will continue to happen. With no one at the controls. That's not possible other than through abstract philosophical musings right now. There's still a sense of ME, unable to see that it doesn't exist.

Back to the fear. Let's call it in. Looking for the self, really looking.

Locate the sensation of fear in the body.

Feeling of panic, arising in the chest. Tightening. Heartbeat quickens. Slight nausea. Wow this is pretty uncomfortable.

Then question this fear, is it just a sensation caused by a thought? Or is it a real threat. Being chased by a tiger is a threat, real. Losing house in a storm is a real threat. In that light what is this fear. Is it based on something you have adequate proof?

The thought arises that this is annihilation. So yes this is a sensation caused by a thought. But is there a scarier thought than that?!? Jeez. Ok going to stay with it and keep looking.

Quote from Sogyal Rinpoche arises as a thought "Your deepest fears are dragons guarding your greatest treasures" Staying with it, looking deeper. Thoughts of "this is just fear arising, just fear, not your fear, there is no you, there's no one there, it's ok, just look" Where are these thoughts coming from if not me? Looking hard, heart really pounding, even when I pause to type this. Feels like stage fright. Nervous as hell.

Been sitting in this for a while now. It's not worsened. I think what is happening is that the mind has crept in in disguise. The thoughts of "just look it's ok there is no you" have usurped the actual looking. Sneaky as shit.

Enough for now, I have kids to get to bed. Phew.

Suggestions please. Thank you, hope you had a lovely time with family. K

[kgreenbank]

just reread my first post. "the fear of losing something has pretty much gone". Haha. My capacity for self-delusion never ceases to amaze me :-)

[kvotski]

Great work. We are onto something to work on for sure. We will come back to other points later. Let's work on fear and it arising from losing control.

Let's start with simpler decisions. Walk about and really focus on the movements of your limbs. Are you actually making the decisions for each movement. During driving, is there someone controlling your actions? Breathing, is there some one breathing or deciding to breathe?

And then let's look at the decisions you assume to have made in the past most of which were successful to bring you here and some not so which you are not proud of. This is very tricky to say that every decision got done without a you. But look if you really had a choice to make a different decision at the time or now? Let me put an example. Let's say you were in a car accident ( hope never ). Now this one happened because you were on the phone and a piece of bad news was communicated to you. Sure if you had no emotions, you could have ignored the reaction, turned left instead of right and not get into the accident. But the conditioning of fight or flight took over and made the hands or feet lose control.

Check if this kind of analysis helped put a new light on the decisions you think you make or have made. How much was deliberate and how much was totally unavoidable, given ALL the factors including what you may confuse as your own actions.

Following what Sogyal is saying; Not your fear but just fear, an emotion rising from the circumstances at hand.

Dinner was good. Children are no longer children, but mother loved her Fitbit gift.

Thank you for your very intense looking Kate. There is a very small distance between you and freedom.

[kvotski]

Couple of points you had asked me about which I didn't get a chance to reply.

"
I can't point at a school tho. Only the buildings, teachers, books, exam papers etc. A "school" does not exist. But a computer does. Doesn't it? I wish you had not put that in with university and country etc. That has confused me. Help me out here?"

You are quite right that nearly everything is a label from computer to atoms or quantum strings. But my lumping computer was deliberate as both computer and university are labels on a composite. You touch keyboard and turn on a switch, calling it a computer. You go to a brick building calling it a school. And we are not saying computers do not exist, just that they are not what we find in direct experience. Schools also exist but only as a concept, a name, an idea and a thought. No arguments to win, I fold. But you understand me completely.
So, self me and I are also labels attached to a complex set of interactions, thoughts, concepts and ideas. The smell of a flower is real and as you found out seeing is real ( I have no problems with you reading other guides, there are no others. Our recommendation to not bring other teachings here is because of our very limited and strong focus on just I, me and self while others talk of many things like God, awareness or consciousness which may or may not be true since our direct experience can't confirm them or the university or Santa Claus.)

[kgreenbank]

Let's work on fear and it arising from losing control.

Let's start with simpler decisions. Walk about and really focus on the movements of your limbs. Are you actually making the decisions for each movement. During driving, is there someone controlling your actions? Breathing, is there some one breathing or deciding to breathe?

How much was deliberate and how much was totally unavoidable, given ALL the factors including what you may confuse as your own actions.

Thank you for your very intense looking Kate. There is a very small distance between you and freedom.

ok, this will be the work today. What is deliberate? Who is choosing to decide? When and how does this decision making occur? Thank you for clear pointing.

I anticipate some struggle in REALLY seeing that things done unconsciously are not done by me (driving, reflexes, breathing etc) as my mind is explaining that these things are still part of the composite and real self. Hah. This has been accepted intellectually (e.g. I've read Sam Harris on free will - yup, we don't have any) but the small distance from freedom you refer to like crossing to another Universe right now...

BUT, I think I get the computer point. The focus on direct experience is sinking in. To restate it, to check this, seeing, feeling, hearing, tasting is real. That includes the immediate experience of thoughts and emotions arising. It's not that I am experiencing it, it's simply that *it is being experienced* These things are verifiable, at that moment only, by direct experience. The mind labels familiar, repeated, composites of sensory experiences ---> School. Computer. Self.

I have work today. The last thing I want to do bearing in mind all of this. Oh well, whatever is going to happen is going to happen anyway, with or without this me claiming it, right? :-)

Much gratitude Sunil.

Ok

[kgreenbank]

Hello Sunil. Day so far, musings jotted down as they arise.

8am. Walk to gym. Beautiful spring morning. Sunshine, birds singing. Heightened visual and auditory perception – everything is sharper, more immediate somehow. My body is walking. I am not walking it. It appears to be doing it by itself. Body is on automatic. There is no *I* apparently managing right leg moving, then left, then right and so on. Thoughts are less random: all seem to be about this process. Fewer arising about general life nonsense. Focus on breathing. This is really interesting. Breathing is happening. I am not breathing. The body is breathing. Even “deliberate” breaths do not appear to have an owner. This is a new experience. I was expecting to claim ownership of deliberate changes in breath pattern but it is not there. Breathing just happens. The intention to change breath patterns is there also. But the effect, the changed breath, does not seem to belong to me. There is an absence of attachment to the I sense.

Gym: horrible. Don’t want to be there. Distracted and want to return home to this enquiry. Walk back with similar experience to the above. Examining life choices. It is possible that decisions were inevitable, yes. That there was no choice involved. Logically, intellectually, this can be verified: Decisions in response to life circumstances were made as a result of personality, beliefs, emotions, thoughts, impulses, conditioning. Alternative decisions were not possible at that moment. There was only that set of composite felt senses and thoughts and emotions at that time. Therefore they just happened. Inevitably. Thought arising that something is being unravelled. No fear here, just an “ah, right”. Another thought “this is nonsense you know, why are you wasting your time with this?” Ignore it. Just a thought. No need to believe it is there?

Deciding to stop writing this and go and do my work now. Let’s look at this. Who is deciding? What is happening? Thoughts about deadlines, fear of consequences of not meeting them. This fear is a sensation arising from a thought. The fear appears to be followed by an impulse to move from the kitchen, go upstairs to my study, log on to work emails etc. What is happening? Use the analysis above: decision to work, or not, is made “as a result of personality, beliefs, emotions, thoughts, impusles, conditioning.” It is possible that there is no I making the decision, that it is happening automatically, like breathing. But I am not “seeing” this, it is conceptual, an idea. Feels very plausible, but it’s not actually realised. Going to put this aside for a while and get on with work. Will try to continue observing throughout. (Funny thought wondering if liberation will sort out my very tiresome procrastination issues. That’s not an expectation by the way! )

Lunchtime, sneaking a peak at LU again. Came across this – “Causality: ‘thought’ -> ‘body movement’. Is this actually observed, or is it *inferred* (issued from subsequent thinking)?” Hmm, there is NO observed evidence that I think about moving my body before the movement happens. No apparent separate entity giving an order so that my legs or hands then move accordingly. It seems entirely plausible that this is inference after the event.

There are thoughts arising now about going for a cigarette in the garden. There are no discernible ‘thought instructions’ to move my body to do this. A test: I ‘choose’ to think : “Stand up, get up of the chair”. Nothing happens. (no surprise there). Then my body stands up and gets up off the chair, then sits down again and starts typing. All by itself. Hmm, did it? There was some apparent decision to do that. But where was it? I didn’t see it or feel it or hear it or think it. The inference is that *I made a decision* and then *I gave an instruction* to make these things happen... but I couldn’t observe either.

There is a sense of something softening. Less resistance to the idea that if something can’t be found, maybe it’s not there. Like maybe I can just relax a bit about it. Maybe it’s just not there. How ridiculous, seeing that in print. As if I would spend this much time looking for anything else! *smh*

Posting this in case you are around and have any guidance. Otherwise I’ll just continue. K

[kvotski]

.anticipate some struggle in REALLY seeing that things done unconsciously are not done by me (driving, reflexes, breathing etc) as my mind is explaining that these things are still part of the composite and real self. Hah. This has been accepted intellectually (e.g. I've read Sam Harris on free will - yup, we don't have any) but the small distance from freedom you refer to like crossing to another Universe right now...

Be clear in your thoughts and don't let the mind sweep things in jumps. Like, these things are still part of...

What things? Breathing, reflexes? How can they be part of a composite? These are real actions not concepts and ideas which make the composite labelled self.

Real self? So what is an unreal self? If it was real and if we could find it somewhere then we can add any legitimacy to that thought.

Forgive me for being a stickler but there is no other way to surround this label called self and find out that at the core of this onion, there is nothing.

BUT, I think I get the computer point. The focus on direct experience is sinking in. To restate it, to check this, seeing, feeling, hearing, tasting is real. That includes the immediate experience of thoughts and emotions arising. It's not that I am experiencing it, it's simply that *it is being experienced* These things are verifiable, at that moment only, by direct experience. The mind labels familiar, repeated, composites of sensory experiences ---> School. Computer. Self.
I have work today. The last thing I want to do bearing in mind all of this. Oh well, whatever is going to happen is going to happen anyway, with or without this me claiming it, right.

Ok

Right on!
Have a good day.

[kvotski]

Ha. Got your post just as I sent mine. Synchronicity seems so real at times but that's another matter.

Here is a thought that helped me and I had posted it for my children on the fridge.

"For this moment to be any different than what it is, the universe would have to change or even not exist at all."

With or without me, this moment is exactly as it is supposed to be, no decisions required.

Look at the doubts. They are thoughts. Thoughts about the Eiffel Tower is real because you can go to Paris and see it in direct experience. But about unicorns and about there being a self is not since neither can be found in direct experience. Yes, you can feel something as a result of an imaginary thought but only the feeling of fear, guilt, procrastination is real, the source is imaginary and an illusion.

Wonder is real when a magician performs a trick only until Google tells you how it's done. Wonder feeling goes poof.

Happy hunting.

[kvotski]

Great line, Kate,

"Maybe it’s just not there. How ridiculous, seeing that in print. As if I would spend this much time looking for anything else"

[kgreenbank]

Hi Sunil, just checking in. No sensational progress to report. I read a lot of LU stuff last night and my mind was spiralling all over the place. Felt a bit overwhlemed with it all so I'm back to simple noticing today. Trying to see how life is just lifing and there is no self controlling it. Body moving, breathing, thought happening, decisions being made.

It's quite amazing how leaps in to claim responsibility for everything isn't? Traps I feel I keep walking into:

A) Procrastination e.g. If this happens at work then there might be some "scene" with ghastly consequences
b) Over-analysis of thoughts - Why am I fearful? What do these doubts signify? What is the *meaning* here?

Any suggestions? K

[kvotski]

Hi Kate,

Taking it easy is always useful, relax into it. At the core, we are still children and react the same way as a two year old if you force him to eat spinach.

Habits like procrastination may or may not be related to the illusion of self. First step may be to let go of the blame. How can I procrastinate if I m not even real? That may bring it to body parts like too tired, too lazy and solutions to such specific issues instead of trying to solve the conceptual unicorn called procrastination.

No problem with over analysis unless it interferes with life. If that's happening look again at specifics. It's kind of a vipassana thing if you ever got into that.

One question for you. How does it feel when you try to accept that I, me or self is an illusion? After a few days of work.