Searching for a guide

[JonathanR]

Hi Chris,

I can't find any tangible operator of thoughts in my experience. There is a strong belief in it's existence but I can't find any thinker of thoughts.

Yes, good.

I was passively watching thoughts arise and cease but couldn't locate the thinker of them.

This seems significant, doesn't it? If there is no thinker of thoughts what is going on? Is thought like the senses then, in that they just seem to be happening without anyone 'making them happen'?

The thoughts often refer as I and comment on preceding thoughts and it appears that the only thing linking the belief I am the thoughts, is just simply belief.

Great. Excellent.

The thoughts initially appeared as if they were searching for the controller of thoughts and this was believed as me but towards the end of inquiry they appeared mechanical. There was fear arising and feelings of anxiety in the stomach but I accepted it. I know it's good for me.
As to what 'me' is, I have no idea. It appears only as thought and belief.

Well, there you are! And it's very good that you manage to accept the fear, not resisting it. You are beginning to see through the illusion and now would be a very good time to look at one or two other things.

In fact there are two things to look at. One is still to do with thoughts and ideas.

It has not been possible to find a 'self' (other than as a thought) and you have already spoken of there being no 'doer'. So is there one that makes 'choices' '? Is there a 'decider'. What about 'free will'?

The second thing is this following exercise:

Find an object. Could be a cup, a piece of fruit or a football, for example. Place this object on a surface in front of you a foot or two away and just sit quietly, observing. Now, allow the eyes to rest gently on this object with no particular intensity of effort.

Examine the experience. There is, in this situation, 'seer', 'seeing' and 'seen'. That is how it can be spoken about but look at the experience. Is there a perceiver that is separate from the perception? Is the perceived separate from the perception? Is there any kind of separation between these three?


Warm regards,
Jon

[Earthninja]

Hi again Jon,

It has not been possible to find a 'self' (other than as a thought) and you have already spoken of there being no 'doer'. So is there one that makes 'choices' '? Is there a 'decider'. What about 'free will'?

Ok so what I can see is that one of two things seem to happen, there can be a thought arise and then the body reacts to the thought or the body just moves or "chooses" to do so something. It really feels like 'I' make the decision but I've seen that thoughts have no found operator. Say right now I'm typing this, it could either be an invisible me choosing to type this or typing is happening and something is believing it is doing the typing?

I'm a bit stuck on two things, one is that if there is a chooser of choices, how would I find one? Because surely if there is a self visible then something must be observing it? Is the absence of tangibly finding an operator proof it doesn't exist? Or could the looker be invisible? I have a feeling this is an illusion but how to see through this doubt...
The other thing is I try and "wait" and watch for the body/mind to make a decision yet it's the 'I' waiting to catch the 'I' out?

Find an object. Could be a cup, a piece of fruit or a football, for example. Place this object on a surface in front of you a foot or two away and just sit quietly, observing. Now, allow the eyes to rest gently on this object with no particular intensity of effort.

Examine the experience. There is, in this situation, 'seer', 'seeing' and 'seen'. That is how it can be spoken about but look at the experience. Is there a perceiver that is separate from the perception? Is the perceived separate from the perception? Is there any kind of separation between these three?

No there is just seeing. The subject, verb and object are all one process. The subject and object are only implied by thoughts. :) When observed like this the experience of seeing takes on a different feeling, rather than I am looking out. There is just seeing.

Thanks again Jon, do I need to be meditating before or after these inquiries?

Kind regards

Chris

[JonathanR]

Hi Chris,

Thanks again Jon, do I need to be meditating before or after these inquiries?

Thanks. you're welcome. Not necessarily but if you find it helpful then that's fine.

Say right now I'm typing this, it could either be an invisible me choosing to type this or typing is happening and something is believing it is doing the typing

Does it have to be a 'something' that 'believes'? Belief is noticed, as thoughts are noticed, sensations are noticed. No 'self' can be found 'doing' thoughts or sensation. Here you are suggesting two alternatives, both of which involve a 'something' that must be 'doing or causing belief'. But where you say:

or typing is happening and something is believing it is doing the typing

Can it be seen and worded slightly differently, this way... that typing is happening and there is a belief that something is doing the typing?

I'm a bit stuck on two things, one is that if there is a chooser of choices, how would I find one?

Well, it's more of a case of looking to see and not finding. Let's test it..

Place both hands on the table in front of you. In a moment you will raise one in the air but not the other. Look for the exact choice-point where one hand is chosen to be lifted. See if this exact point where the choice is made can be found.

The other thing is I try and "wait" and watch for the body/mind to make a decision yet it's the 'I' waiting to catch the 'I' out?

Only if you believe there is an 'I' actually 'there' in the first place :-)

It's very easy to assume that there is really, 'behind it all' a 'self'

No there is just seeing. The subject, verb and object are all one process. The subject and object are only implied by thoughts. :) When observed like this the experience of seeing takes on a different feeling, rather than I am looking out. There is just seeing.

Try going for a walk in nature, a park or somewhere where everything is alive, wind, sun, sky, grass, animals, insects, people. Just notice it happening and see if there is a line or boundary anywhere in experience that separates 'you' from all of 'it'. Don't go by thinking but by direct experience.

All the best,

Jon.

[Earthninja]

Hey Jon!

. Does it have to be a 'something' that 'believes'? Belief is noticed, as thoughts are noticed, sensations are noticed. No 'self' can be found 'doing' thoughts or sensation. Here you are suggesting two alternatives, both of which involve a 'something' that must be 'doing or causing belief'.

No it doesn't, thanks for showing me. There can be just belief. It's like the senses.

. Place both hands on the table in front of you. In a moment you will raise one in the air but not the other. Look for the exact choice-point where one hand is chosen to be lifted. See if this exact point where the choice is made can be found.

I can't find a choosing point, if there is a thought, then only can the intended hand rise. But that being said the hand was rising by itself. There was no doer of it. I'll touch on my reaction to this experiment on your next question. :)

Try going for a walk in nature, a park or somewhere where everything is alive, wind, sun, sky, grass, animals, insects, people. Just notice it happening and see if there is a line or boundary anywhere in experience that separates 'you' from all of 'it'. Don't go by thinking but by direct experience.

I can't find a boundary, it was all happening in one space. There is only belief of any separation. I tried inquiry in each sense if there was any boundary starting with sight and then moved onto thoughts. No owner to be found anywhere. I did the hand experiment at the same time and yes, the hands were moving up without any perceived choice.
At this point waves of fear and nausea appeared, my stomach tightened and it felt like I was being lifted off the chair. The thoughts were arising around this time.
"Is this normal?" "Is this some kind of breakthrough?" "Just accept everything that is arising" "Try and observe the fear"
My vision was hazy at this point.

After about 5 minutes everything returned to normal, there was some identification with thoughts at this point. There is still confusion about what I am though?
There has been no trace of any operator anywhere and yet there is a lingering feeling I am this body/mind.

Thanks for all your help Jon, much appreciated.

Best regards,

Chris

[JonathanR]

Hi Chris

No it doesn't, thanks for showing me. There can be just belief. It's like the senses.

Yes, good. Like thought (as thought) it just appears, hangs around being believed for a while and then disappears. Is there a 'self' anywhere that 'believes' or does 'belief'?

I can't find a boundary, it was all happening in one space. There is only belief of any separation. I tried inquiry in each sense if there was any boundary starting with sight and then moved onto thoughts. No owner to be found anywhere. I did the hand experiment at the same time and yes, the hands were moving up without any perceived choice.
At this point waves of fear and nausea appeared, my stomach tightened and it felt like I was being lifted off the chair. The thoughts were arising around this time.
"Is this normal?" "Is this some kind of breakthrough?" "Just accept everything that is arising" "Try and observe the fear"
My vision was hazy at this point.

You are doing very well Chris.

Relaxing is good. If possible don't react to the fear and don't tense up or resist it. It may not be comfortable but it can't hurt 'you' It only seems as though there is something to be afraid of:-) Do you see this?

Allow the fear to flow through and probably it will subside. This fear is not at all uncommon and it is not a bad or 'abnormal' thing. It's as if an old idea of 'self' is attempting to fight back, even though there was never a basis for it (except as thoughts). There is nothing to 'die' but sometimes it takes a while to see this. .

After about 5 minutes everything returned to normal, there was some identification with thoughts at this point. There is still confusion about what I am though?
There has been no trace of any operator anywhere and yet there is a lingering feeling I am this body/mind.

[/quote]

Good to 'no trace of an operator', as for 'I am this body/mind, we can deal with that.

Please look for 'mind'. Can one be found in experience? What 'mind'?

All the best,

Jon

[Earthninja]

Hi Jon,

Thank you for all your help,

Yes, good. Like thought (as thought) it just appears, hangs around being believed for a while and then disappears. Is there a 'self' anywhere that 'believes' or does 'belief'?

I can't find a believer, even the attention of belief is spontaneous.

. Relaxing is good. If possible don't react to the fear and don't tense up or resist it. It may not be comfortable but it can't hurt 'you' It only seems as though there is something to be afraid of:-) Do you see this?

I can see this but in that moment it was a new experience, the uncertainty of what was happening. When attention goes to thoughts I can often see the once believed thought acting like a person. It's these moments that I know there is nothing to truly fear. It is already just a thought, nothing is going to die.

. Good to 'no trace of an operator', as for 'I am this body/mind, we can deal with that.

Please look for 'mind'. Can one be found in experience? What 'mind'?

No there is no mind, as if to say that thoughts are an entity. There are just thoughts and patterns of thoughts. There is no locatable mind anywhere.

Thank you again Jon, I find it incredible there are people like yourself willing to help others see through this for nothing.

[JonathanR]

Hi Chris,

. I can't find a believer, even the attention of belief is spontaneous.

That's great.

I can see this but in that moment it was a new experience

I know. It's easy for me to say 'relax'. But it sounds like the fear passed anyway?

When attention goes to thoughts I can often see the once believed thought acting like a person. It's these moments that I know there is nothing to truly fear. It is already just a thought, nothing is going to die.

Excellent.

No there is no mind, as if to say that thoughts are an entity. There are just thoughts and patterns of thoughts. There is no locatable mind anywhere.

OK. Great.

Now, body. Is there a particular region of the body that thought or feeling identify with as 'I'? It could be good to look at that.

Thank you again Jon, I find it incredible there are people like yourself willing to help others see through this for nothing.

My pleasure. Its curiously delightful to be able to help. I'm glad it's free for everyone.

Jon.

[Earthninja]

Hi Jon!

As for your question about the fear, yes it passed away. Something had changed since then, there is much more acceptance and understanding that I am not the thoughts.

. Now, body. Is there a particular region of the body that thought or feeling identify with as 'I'? It could be good to look at that.

Ok I've looked at this one, there is an unquestioned assumption that I am behind my eyes looking out at the world. But now for the first time looking, I've found there is only seeing. It's not even a feeling I am behind the eyes, it's just an assumption.
From head down it seems much more impersonal. There was pain in my foot a few days ago and since your pointing has happened I was able to not take ownership of the pain. It was simply a sensation. Thank you.

Should I ask you questions about this process or is it better to just follow your pointing?

Many thanks, hope you are well.

Chris.

[JonathanR]

Hi Chris,

As for your question about the fear, yes it passed away. Something had changed since then, there is much more acceptance and understanding that I am not the thoughts.

That's great.

Ok I've looked at this one, there is an unquestioned assumption that I am behind my eyes looking out at the world. But now for the first time looking, I've found there is only seeing. It's not even a feeling I am behind the eyes, it's just an assumption.
From head down it seems much more impersonal. There was pain in my foot a few days ago and since your pointing has happened I was able to not take ownership of the pain. It was simply a sensation. Thank you.

Should I ask you questions about this process or is it better to just follow your pointing?

Actually, though it would be possible to go digging and zooming in on details of 'body' (and I certainly recommend looking again and again at these assumptions that 'someone' is 'in the body'), it seems that there is increasing clarity here. Otherwise you would not be speaking in these terms. These patterns of assumption have been going on a long time. When 'no self' is seen, identification with thoughts of all kinds begins to unravel. This was what we were aiming for.

As for 'behind the eyes', you can look at this... If 'you' are 'behind your eyes' there must be a controller of vision of some sort, some entity that experiences being behind the back of the eyes? Many people say 'vision is hardwired into the brain and brain creates an illusion of a 'self behind the eyes'. In that case 'self' is still an illusion, however it originates? Is there a direct experience of 'brain' 'creating an illusion'?

All the best,

Jon.

[Earthninja]

Hi Jon,

. As for 'behind the eyes', you can look at this... If 'you' are 'behind your eyes' there must be a controller of vision of some sort, some entity that experiences being behind the back of the eyes? Many people say 'vision is hardwired into the brain and brain creates an illusion of a 'self behind the eyes'. In that case 'self' is still an illusion, however it originates? Is there a direct experience of 'brain' 'creating an illusion'?

There is no experience of brain creating illusion. The illusion is just thoughts believed to be true. There is no experience of 'me' looking at the 'world' from behind the eyes. 'I' is not behind the eyes. Nor in any other body part.

[Earthninja]

Hi again Jon,

I'd just like to give you an update on where I am so maybe you could let me know what still needs seeing through. Ok so I know I'm not thoughts, they are uncontrollable, unforeseeable and refer to the illusion of I a lot if the time. There is simply seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling, feeling and no locatable I anywhere. Choices appear but there is no locatable chooser. Same with all movements. Driving just happens, movements just happen.

'I' feel somewhat freer and the awareness of the senses appears clearer. Thoughts are often seen as phenomena and even 'I' thoughts not believed. Things are starting to change but there hasn't been any single clear understanding of no self. More like a slow shaky constantly questioning inquiry. How will I know if I'm through the gate? Or is this type of question a hindrance?

Thank you again in advance,

Words can't express how thankful I am for your assistance.

Regards Chris

[JonathanR]

Hi Chris,

So happy to hear from you.

Sorry I have been slow replying...been a hectic day.

You know what I think? It's time to ask you if you feel you have seen through the illusion of a 'separate self'?

Quite a few things can be looked at in detail. There is room for further investigation and we do have forums available for that. But what I'd like you to answer right now is if you feel you have seen through this illusion?

If there are doubts let me know.

Otherwise we will go on to six important questions that we always ask at this stage. Is that OK? Are you ready for them?

All the best,

Jon

[Earthninja]

Hi Jon!

No problem at all, there has been a really strong dissociation with thoughts but there are still doubts mainly regarding free will. Although I can't locate the chooser of movements there is still a 'feeling' or belief that I may be doing the movements.

I'm ready!

Kind Regards

Chris

[JonathanR]

Hi Chris,

No problem at all, there has been a really strong dissociation with thoughts but there are still doubts mainly regarding free will. Although I can't locate the chooser of movements there is still a 'feeling' or belief that I may be doing the movements.

OK, we will come to the six questions soon but let's look at this first.

Do you cycle, or drive a car?

Whichever it is, look at how your next journey happens.

Do you find a moment where a decision to go somewhere is taken, followed by an awareness of a controlling 'self' that causes and orchestrates body parts to move in various ways so as to reach the front door?

Surely a multitude of decisions and choices would have to be made just to reach the door?

Is each move coordinated by some central puppet-master?

Perhaps there are moments when it seems that a 'me' 'does' all this, feeling for keys, for example. Perhaps that is noticed and there is the thought 'I felt for keys'..but look at this... Is thought just claiming an ownership of something that flowed spontameously, without any actual 'owner' or 'causer'?

What about those times when it is thought that 'I am driving', 'I am cycling'? But 'who' or what was 'doing' the cycling all that time when it was just happening, prior to the latest announcement by thought that 'I choose to make this happen'?


Jon.

[Earthninja]

Hi Jon,

Ok so I spent the day analysing movements and choices. In the car ride I could see gears being changed, indicators activated and even blind spot checked. All these happened with no decision or apparent chooser.
Thoughts arise but they are more "the seeker" trying to claim ownership of the inquiry. It's still just thoughts, nobody doing them.

There is again an unchecked assumption that there is a doer of movements but this doer can't be found. Only when awareness is on a movement, then thought arises saying that was me that did that. If awareness isn't on the movement it just still moved by itself.

I have this idea that there should be some sort of event or pop of understanding, like a clear sober without a doubt understanding? This hasn't happened.