Requesting a guide

[Hannah B-T]

Thanks for keeping me updated-

Driving home there was just an experience of connectedness with no ‘’me’ in between. There was a lot of peace and joy. That state sort of dissipated - and waking up today there’s a lot of tiredness and apathy, but feels like a shift is happening.

It's helpful to label this stuff as 'states'. Yes, sensations labelled peace, joy, connectedness, tiredness, apathy, come and go. I like to call all this stuff 'side-effects'.

The side-effects are not what this is about, the simple seeing is.

Don't get to believing the story that because certain sensations are going on, that that is 'it', and when others are there it means it's not 'it'. Keep questioning that.

a realisation there was no me to get I

:)


Let's give it a day or two, just for normal life, fresh air and nature, sunshine, friends and family...


Then let me know if anything else needs looking at or is coming up that is confusing.

xx

[Little Em]

Thanks, will do xx

[Hannah B-T]

how's tricks?

x

[Little Em]

Hi

The state has passed and everything is very ordinary today, but its been a very intense few days with some very extreme states arising and falling away. Yesterday there was a lot of dissatisfaction and neuroticism and then circumstances forced me into having to be alone in one place and a lot of fear came up and 'I' took the opportunity to look behind it , and sensed there was nothing, nothing solid, it just moved and attached itself to a story - and that story was very intense (my partner and children were twenty mins late to pick me up and 'I' imagined they'd been killed in a car crash!) But could see so clearly how it had no reality and that it was covering a void. So its been interesting - more erosion for sure. And a realisation that I had been expecting a state of enlightenment to arise - and it feels like that expectation has fallen away, as can see there would be no me to experience it.

[Hannah B-T]

Yes, anything can and will arise as it does, but great to hear that the fear and images/story was able to be seen through in such intense circumstances. I still find this pointer useful for fear reactions- 'what is there here that needs protecting? From what?'

We can always talk more later on PM about the 'erosion' process, and we have an aftercare facebook group to support that- but how would you feel about answering the standard questions about seeing no separate self we use here at this point?

[Little Em]

Yes, great, lets go for it

[Little Em]

OK :HAS THE ILUSION OF A SEPERATE SELF BEEN SEEN THROUGH -IF SO WHAT REMAINS - IF NOT WHAT NEEDS CLARIFYING?

Well 'I' can't find a separate self, and although there is still a strong feeling 'I' associate with self, there is, often, an awareness of this being a habit, or concept that doesn't relate to anything I can find in my immediate experience.

But it does feel like an erosion of a deeply held belief in self, or rather seeing it as just that, rather than a complete knowing with certainty there is no self, as feels like there would be no self to be certain - feels like everything is uncertain / provisional

[Hannah B-T]

and although there is still a strong feeling 'I' associate with self, there is, often, an awareness of this being a habit, or concept that doesn't relate to anything I can find in my immediate experience.

Give me a bit more again on this 'strong feeling of assocation with self'. Talk me through what and how that manifests.

But it does feel like an erosion of a deeply held belief in self, or rather seeing it as just that

Yep. Sounds fine.

rather than a complete knowing with certainty there is no self, as feels like there would be no self to be certain - feels like everything is uncertain / provisional

Ok, if i ask you now, straight up,

Is there a separate self in this experience right now in any way shape or form? As in an entity called Hannah, that can do stuff like control, choose, experience life...

What's the off the cuff, gut response?
Where's the uncertainty? what is that made of?

[Hannah B-T]

sorry this was meant to be in bold not quotes

Is there a separate self in this experience right now in any way shape or form? As in an entity called Hannah, that can do stuff like control, choose, experience life...

[Little Em]

IS THERE A SEPERTE SELF IN THIS EXPERIENCE RIGHT NOW IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM? AN ENTITY CALLED HANNAH THAT CAN DO STUFF LIKE CONTROL, CHOOSE EXPERIENCE LIFE?

Well the off the cuff, gut response would be no, not right now. And actually, 'The strong feeling of self' when 'I' look is not really a feeling -can't find a feeling characteristic of self - just thoughts about that. But unless 'Im' looking at my experience in the moment, 'I' mostly forget 'I' don't have a self and things go on much as they ever did!

[Hannah B-T]

gut response would be no, not right now.

And when is it ever not 'right now'?

The strong feeling of self' when 'I' look is not really a feeling -can't find a feeling characteristic of self - just thoughts about that.

Ok, and when not looking? Are there feelings/ particular sensations being characterised/labelled 'self/Hannah'.
A bit like out of 'the corner of your eye', can you catch a look at those and describe that to me?

But unless 'Im' looking at my experience in the moment, 'I' mostly forget 'I' don't have a self and things go on much as they ever did!

What is it that is implied to be separate here doing the 'looking at experience'? what I is it here that is capable of forgetting/remebering? How does it do that?

Is there an I that can recognise or not recognise that it doesn't exist? How would that possibly work?!
What's actually going on there?

What is the problem with 'things going on much as they ever did?' What are the thoughts saying about what still needs to change or be different? give me a splurge on that...

[Little Em]

And when is it ever not 'right now'?
Good Point!


Ok, and when not looking? Are there feelings/ particular sensations being characterised/labelled 'self/Hannah'.
A bit like out of 'the corner of your eye', can you catch a look at those and describe that to me?
Suppose its just awareness, without a particular object. Or rather a thought about a self that follows a gap between thoughts, or that follows any thoughts.
But unless 'Im' looking at my experience in the moment, 'I' mostly forget 'I' don't have a self and things go on much as they ever did!


What is it that is implied to be separate here doing the 'looking at experience'? what I is it here that is capable of forgetting/remebering? How does it do that?

Mmm – yes – that question seems to have sparked some fizzing sensations in ‘my’ brain! Just thoughts



Is there an I that can recognise or not recognise that it doesn't exist? How would that possibly work?!
What's actually going on there?

Again, can see its just thoughts!

What is the problem with 'things going on much as they ever did?' What are the thoughts saying about what still needs to change or be different? give me a splurge on that...

I suppose that there is still a subtle fantasy playing about truly realising non-self and living in flow with no neurosis and an ability to be with what is, etc, blah! When ‘I’ first started reading ‘Gate crashers’ that seemed to open me to a state of flow, and felt very free to be with what was, so guess there’s some expectations that arise when it seems as though something un flow like is happening. Though writing this there’s a realisation that nothing is truly not part of the flow, feelings of sadness, stuckness even – still flow, as in feelings and emotions arising and passing away

[Hannah B-T]

Suppose its just awareness, without a particular object

Just to be clear on this, are you saying that Hannah is awareness?

Or rather a thought about a self that follows a gap between thoughts, or that follows any thoughts.

I asked- Are there feelings/ particular sensations being characterised/labelled 'self/Hannah'.
You replied about thoughts about a self that are popping up... that's ok, but not quite what I asked. Take another look for me.

Mmm – yes – that question seems to have sparked some fizzing sensations in ‘my’ brain! Just thoughts

Can a thought remember? forget? Look?

Again, can see its just thoughts!

Good, and can a thought recognise?

What can a thought actually DO?

I suppose that there is still a subtle fantasy playing about truly realising non-self and living in flow with no neurosis and an ability to be with what is, etc, blah! When ‘I’ first started reading ‘Gate crashers’ that seemed to open me to a state of flow, and felt very free to be with what was, so guess there’s some expectations that arise when it seems as though something un flow like is happening

Thanks for the honesty here.

Let's look at this-
What is the current experience of 'neurosis'?
The experience/state you describe- how does that appear now? Is it a memory thought/images? What makes that memory convincing?

Also can you find anything, anything at all in experience, sounds, sights,sensations, smells tastes or even thoughts that meets the criteria 'permanent'. That is not in a constant state of flux/change? Take a look...

Though writing this there’s a realisation that nothing is truly not part of the flow, feelings of sadness, stuckness even – still flow, as in feelings and emotions arising and passing away

Give me more on this 'stuckness', what is that appearing as?

Yes, feelings arise and pass away...is there anything really 'personal' in that? Or is it more like weather? Whether it looks like a nice sunny day or a hurricane?


xx

[Little Em]

Suppose its just awareness, without a particular object

Just to be clear on this, are you saying that Hannah is awareness?
More like awareness is, Hannah is a construct
Or rather a thought about a self that follows a gap between thoughts, or that follows any thoughts.

I asked- Are there feelings/ particular sensations being characterised/labelled 'self/Hannah'.
You replied about thoughts about a self that are popping up... that's ok, but not quite what I asked. Take another look for me.
When I experience sensations in the body they do get labelled ‘my sensations’ and when I experience emotions they are labelled my emotions.

Can a thought remember? forget? Look?
No

Good, and can a thought recognise?
No

What can a thought actually DO?
Nothing!

I suppose that there is still a subtle fantasy playing about truly realising non-self and living in flow with no neurosis and an ability to be with what is, etc, blah! When ‘I’ first started reading ‘Gate crashers’ that seemed to open me to a state of flow, and felt very free to be with what was, so guess there’s some expectations that arise when it seems as though something un flow like is happening

Thanks for the honesty here.

Let's look at this-
What is the current experience of 'neurosis'?
The experience/state you describe- how does that appear now? Is it a memory thought/images? What makes that memory convincing?

So there isn’t a current experience of neurosis. There is a memory of a recent occasion that got labelled ‘neurotic’ Can recall some images. But the question of what makes a memory convincing – that really hits on something – the I is jumping in and saying ‘I just know’ and then there is this whole train of thought and a story, and the whole gut thing (sensations in my gut) – its very strong and it seems to trigger lots of doubt and I want to scream I JUST KNOW IT REALLY HAPPENED!

Also can you find anything, anything at all in experience, sounds, sights,sensations, smells tastes or even thoughts that meets the criteria 'permanent'. That is not in a constant state of flux/change? Take a look...

No can’t find anything in experience that is not in a state of flux change. Can see that this would also be true of this memory!
Though writing this there’s a realisation that nothing is truly not part of the flow, feelings of sadness, stuckness even – still flow, as in feelings and emotions arising and passing away

Give me more on this 'stuckness', what is that appearing as?

The stuckness is appearing right now as sensations of tightness, tension in the jaw and clenched teeth and sensations of tightness in my neck and shouldres, but the senations are in a constant state of flux!

Yes, feelings arise and pass away...is there anything really 'personal' in that? Or is it more like weather? Whether it looks like a nice sunny day or a hurricane?

Yes! Have been seeing feelings more as weather, can see they are not personal.


xx

[Hannah B-T]

More like awareness is, Hannah is a construct

Hannah is a word. 6 letters.
What is that word referring to right now?

When I experience sensations in the body they do get labelled ‘my sensations’ and when I experience emotions they are labelled my emotions

Is there an I there, separate to the body sensations, experiencing them?

Does the label 'mine' change anything that's going on?
Let's look closer at posession.
What makes anything 'mine'?

Take a look at your car, your house/flat, your tv, your lover, your emotions, your life.

What really, actually in this moment makes them yours?
How does that really operate as an idea?
And what 'you' is it in that sentence that is apparently doing the possessing?

What about 'my body' even...
Get together a few pictures of different ages from babyhood to now and sit in front of a mirror.
Relax and take a fresh look at all those images, including the one in the mirror.
Is there a self in any of those images?
if so which one, the baby? the child? the woman in the mirror?

Tell me what comes up from that.

If the mirror is big enough take a look at the image of the body and then surrounding objects in the view in the mirror.
Is any one part of that whole image 'you'. How? what's saying that?

What can a thought actually DO?
Nothing!

So if a self, a Hannah can't be found outside thoughts talking about one, and those thoughts can't do anything....then where's the problem?

the I is jumping in and saying ‘I just know’ and then there is this whole train of thought and a story, and the whole gut thing (sensations in my gut) – its very strong and it seems to trigger lots of doubt and I want to scream I JUST KNOW IT REALLY HAPPENED!

Great stuff- So here you've described how certain sensations in the gut area and the associated thoughts 'I JUST KNOW IT REALLY HAPPENNED' are creating an illusion here, that there is more going on than just sensations and thoughts about those sensations.
But can anything more than that be found?


Take that thought, those words... 'I just know it really happened'. And ask-

Can a thought know anything?
How would that work?

No can’t find anything in experience that is not in a state of flux change. Can see that this would also be true of this memory!

Fantastic. This is a big thing to really see clearly. Keep checking this out. It's a whole area of exploration/erosion post LU that comes under the umbrella of the word 'impermanence'. At the moment i'd focus particularly on looking at any thoughts/sensations or experience that seems to be more personal and presenting that pointer to it 'can anything be found here that is not in a constant state of flux/change'.

The stuckness is appearing right now as sensations of tightness, tension in the jaw and clenched teeth and sensations of tightness in my neck and shouldres, but the sensations are in a constant state of flux!

Again, well done in noticing this, that even what's being labelled as 'stuck' is actually in a constant state of flux itself!
It's just bonkers isn't it often what thoughts say compared to what the experience actually is...

Yes! Have been seeing feelings more as weather, can see they are not personal.

:)