Hi Pete,
I'll keep going through these today, so far, here's what I've noticed...
I spent a couple of hours driving this morning & was looking to see if "i" was driving or "i" was listening to the music...
"I' can't find an "i" controlling the driving...my body is doing things but I'm not controlling it with thought...thoughts are just randomly going wherever they want to go...so, my body does do things to keep the car on the road, but it's just doing stuff without me thinking about it or consciously controlling it...like breathing perhaps...
I didn't have to learn to breathe though, i learned to drive...breathing just happens, driving just happens...but once I had to learn to drive.
There is no separation between sound and hearing, it's all the one thing.
Something else about driving, this isn't something I recommend people try doing on purpose but it kind of illustrated this whole, driving just happens thing this morning...at once stage, my thinking or attention was distracted from looking ahead on the road, driving and staying on the road just keeps happening when this happens...this is something I've notice before & wondered about...I don't stop looking forward or paying attention to the road on purpose, but many times driving that has happened for one reason or another, and driving and staying on the road keeps happening...so I'm not really driving am I?...even if there is something to suddenly need my attention on the road or on the side of the road, my attention is dragged to the place it's needed...I'm not doing that..."I" can't "do" that...something else is making that happen...it's certainly not occurring through some faculty of "my mind or thought."
The advice to keep looking from a relaxed place is good, I tend to "think" I have to "try" to get something...rather than just looking to see it is happening as it is always.
My friend sent me this today, it's perfectly articulated & helped a lot...
"Nothing matters
I don't exist
I never did
I never will
I am a series of habit patterns playing out connected to the universe/consciousness (the same thing)
Every atom is all one.
The separate self is a lie
I can't help but flow, even when it feels like I’m not flowing - it is all One.
There is no mistake -
There is only the opportunity to lean more fully into the intensity of no self and complete surrender.
Feel into the fullness of all of it, even everything that screams of ego.
Love the lie of the self; it wants you to hate it.
Love it and roll with it, and laugh its crazy lie –
I can hear it, but see its slight of hand
and its power is gone, gone, gone
over and over through out the day"
Seeking a guide
Re: Seeking a guide
Hi Pete,
I'll keep going through these today, so far, here's what I've noticed...
I spent a couple of hours driving this morning & was looking to see if "i" was driving or "i" was listening to the music...
"I' can't find an "i" controlling the driving...my body is doing things but I'm not controlling it with thought...thoughts are just randomly going wherever they want to go...so, my body does do things to keep the car on the road, but it's just doing stuff without me thinking about it or consciously controlling it...like breathing perhaps...
I didn't have to learn to breathe though, i learned to drive...breathing just happens, driving just happens...but once I had to learn to drive.
There is no separation between sound and hearing, it's all the one thing.
Something else about driving, this isn't something I recommend people try doing on purpose but it kind of illustrated this whole, driving just happens thing this morning...at once stage, my thinking or attention was distracted from looking ahead on the road, driving and staying on the road just keeps happening when this happens...this is something I've notice before & wondered about...I don't stop looking forward or paying attention to the road on purpose, but many times driving that has happened for one reason or another, and driving and staying on the road keeps happening...so I'm not really driving am I?...even if there is something to suddenly need my attention on the road or on the side of the road, my attention is dragged to the place it's needed...I'm not doing that..."I" can't "do" that...something else is making that happen...it's certainly not occurring through some faculty of "my mind or thought."
The advice to keep looking from a relaxed place is good, I tend to "think" I have to "try" to get something...rather than just looking to see it is happening as it is always.
My friend sent me this today, it's perfectly articulated & helped a lot...
"Nothing matters
I don't exist
I never did
I never will
I am a series of habit patterns playing out connected to the universe/consciousness (the same thing)
Every atom is all one.
The separate self is a lie
I can't help but flow, even when it feels like I’m not flowing - it is all One.
There is no mistake -
There is only the opportunity to lean more fully into the intensity of no self and complete surrender.
Feel into the fullness of all of it, even everything that screams of ego.
Love the lie of the self; it wants you to hate it.
Love it and roll with it, and laugh its crazy lie –
I can hear it, but see its slight of hand
and its power is gone, gone, gone
over and over through out the day"
I'll keep going through these today, so far, here's what I've noticed...
I spent a couple of hours driving this morning & was looking to see if "i" was driving or "i" was listening to the music...
"I' can't find an "i" controlling the driving...my body is doing things but I'm not controlling it with thought...thoughts are just randomly going wherever they want to go...so, my body does do things to keep the car on the road, but it's just doing stuff without me thinking about it or consciously controlling it...like breathing perhaps...
I didn't have to learn to breathe though, i learned to drive...breathing just happens, driving just happens...but once I had to learn to drive.
There is no separation between sound and hearing, it's all the one thing.
Something else about driving, this isn't something I recommend people try doing on purpose but it kind of illustrated this whole, driving just happens thing this morning...at once stage, my thinking or attention was distracted from looking ahead on the road, driving and staying on the road just keeps happening when this happens...this is something I've notice before & wondered about...I don't stop looking forward or paying attention to the road on purpose, but many times driving that has happened for one reason or another, and driving and staying on the road keeps happening...so I'm not really driving am I?...even if there is something to suddenly need my attention on the road or on the side of the road, my attention is dragged to the place it's needed...I'm not doing that..."I" can't "do" that...something else is making that happen...it's certainly not occurring through some faculty of "my mind or thought."
The advice to keep looking from a relaxed place is good, I tend to "think" I have to "try" to get something...rather than just looking to see it is happening as it is always.
My friend sent me this today, it's perfectly articulated & helped a lot...
"Nothing matters
I don't exist
I never did
I never will
I am a series of habit patterns playing out connected to the universe/consciousness (the same thing)
Every atom is all one.
The separate self is a lie
I can't help but flow, even when it feels like I’m not flowing - it is all One.
There is no mistake -
There is only the opportunity to lean more fully into the intensity of no self and complete surrender.
Feel into the fullness of all of it, even everything that screams of ego.
Love the lie of the self; it wants you to hate it.
Love it and roll with it, and laugh its crazy lie –
I can hear it, but see its slight of hand
and its power is gone, gone, gone
over and over through out the day"
Re: Seeking a guide
Hey pete,
I posted a reply earlier today but I can't see it showing up in the thread...so i copy & pasted & posted it again...still not showing up in the thread...I'm just going to leave it and write again now & hope these are getting through...
Aliveness & presence are definitely hijacked by thought...presence is happening & there is an real aliveness to it...thought happens but when "i" identify with the thoughts as if they are "me" it does hijack that sense of life flowing unimpeded...it hijacks presence & the aliveness that goes with it...
My friend's spiel about embracing all of it, loving all of it...and life just keeps happening anyway, even identification with thought can't and doesn't stop it is a very good reminder though.
Identification with thought does appear to slow the flow of life/aliveness though. That's not something I have to "think" on or put attention into...it doesn't matter one way or another...but it does appear that identification with thought impedes/slows the flow of life through this energy system. There appears to be more energy, more flow, more aliveness when my attention is on the present moment and just being. Perhaps the flow of life is happening just the same but the identification with thought is what is slow & impeded and b/c that's where my attention is it appears the flow of life is slowed down or impeded...
There is still the same flow of thoughts and labelling going on...knowing the labelling is just that, labelling experience with thought...and experience happening regardless of thought labelling it is helpful...it helps to remember that and bring awareness to the experience rather than sticking to a label of the experience.
Re learning how to drive vs breathing just happening, not being a learned thing...this body has had to learn things then it just happens as part of the flow of life after the initial learning...
so it's not so much like "i" had to learn stuff, this energy system/body had to learn things in order to do certain tasks in life...then the body/energy system encodes the program and just "does" it...there isn't a "me" or "i" thinking about how to "do the thing" or make the program work...it just works...does whatever the program has been taught to do...like cleaning my teeth...there isn't "i" or "me" thinking about "how" to clean my teeth...what physical functions have to be performed to clean my teeth....this just happens. Does that make sense? Am i getting off topic?
The flow of thoughts and labelling keeps happening, there is no control over that...it has to be the same as the flow of life happening and there is no control over that...they have to be one and the same thing...the common denominator is "i" have no control over it....it's all just happening..."i" only exists as identification with thought...here's the thing..."I" am still identified with thought a lot of the time...unless "I" am very grounded in the present moment...then the identification with thought melts away....but it comes and goes all the time and there is no control over any of it. It's all just happening regardless of what "i" might "think".
I posted a reply earlier today but I can't see it showing up in the thread...so i copy & pasted & posted it again...still not showing up in the thread...I'm just going to leave it and write again now & hope these are getting through...
Aliveness & presence are definitely hijacked by thought...presence is happening & there is an real aliveness to it...thought happens but when "i" identify with the thoughts as if they are "me" it does hijack that sense of life flowing unimpeded...it hijacks presence & the aliveness that goes with it...
My friend's spiel about embracing all of it, loving all of it...and life just keeps happening anyway, even identification with thought can't and doesn't stop it is a very good reminder though.
Identification with thought does appear to slow the flow of life/aliveness though. That's not something I have to "think" on or put attention into...it doesn't matter one way or another...but it does appear that identification with thought impedes/slows the flow of life through this energy system. There appears to be more energy, more flow, more aliveness when my attention is on the present moment and just being. Perhaps the flow of life is happening just the same but the identification with thought is what is slow & impeded and b/c that's where my attention is it appears the flow of life is slowed down or impeded...
There is still the same flow of thoughts and labelling going on...knowing the labelling is just that, labelling experience with thought...and experience happening regardless of thought labelling it is helpful...it helps to remember that and bring awareness to the experience rather than sticking to a label of the experience.
Re learning how to drive vs breathing just happening, not being a learned thing...this body has had to learn things then it just happens as part of the flow of life after the initial learning...
so it's not so much like "i" had to learn stuff, this energy system/body had to learn things in order to do certain tasks in life...then the body/energy system encodes the program and just "does" it...there isn't a "me" or "i" thinking about how to "do the thing" or make the program work...it just works...does whatever the program has been taught to do...like cleaning my teeth...there isn't "i" or "me" thinking about "how" to clean my teeth...what physical functions have to be performed to clean my teeth....this just happens. Does that make sense? Am i getting off topic?
The flow of thoughts and labelling keeps happening, there is no control over that...it has to be the same as the flow of life happening and there is no control over that...they have to be one and the same thing...the common denominator is "i" have no control over it....it's all just happening..."i" only exists as identification with thought...here's the thing..."I" am still identified with thought a lot of the time...unless "I" am very grounded in the present moment...then the identification with thought melts away....but it comes and goes all the time and there is no control over any of it. It's all just happening regardless of what "i" might "think".
Re: Seeking a guide
Hi Anna,
I got three posts from you, timed: 3.17, 9.31 (duplicate) and 10.01.
Yeah, a relaxed, everyday approach everytime. I like your friend's poem.
Thanks for thoughts and reflections. But we need to stay on course looking at each area of direct experience in turn, as that's the best way for you to arrive at knowing for certain that there just ain't no separate self nowhere, and never was. We'll move on to thoughts and thinking next but, before we do, please answer these earlier questions so that I can see for sure whether you need to look any more into sense arisings before we move on:
1)Not at all from what thinking is saying, but solely from looking in 'your' actual experience, when looking at a tree, an orange, out of the window or whatever, can you find a 'you', a self-entity, present actually doing the seeing? If so, tell me what it looks like and how it does it.
2)Please do the same with each of the other four senses and let me know whether you can find an experiencer, or is there just hearing, tasting, touching and smelling, as well just seeing.
3)Also can you find any separation/distinction between seeing and the the object that's been seen? The same goes for hearing, touching, tasting and smelling.
Pete x
I got three posts from you, timed: 3.17, 9.31 (duplicate) and 10.01.
Good observations on driving and the lack of any 'I' present doing anything. We'll move on to looking at doing and actions and control in more detail soon."I' can't find an "i" controlling the driving...my body is doing things but I'm not controlling it with thought...thoughts are just randomly going wherever they want to go...so, my body does do things to keep the car on the road, but it's just doing stuff without me thinking about it or consciously controlling it...like breathing perhaps...
The advice to keep looking from a relaxed place is good, I tend to "think" I have to "try" to get something...rather than just looking to see it is happening as it is always.
Yeah, a relaxed, everyday approach everytime. I like your friend's poem.
I'm pleased that you see how important that is.There is still the same flow of thoughts and labelling going on...knowing the labelling is just that, labelling experience with thought...and experience happening regardless of thought labelling it is helpful...it helps to remember that and bring awareness to the experience rather than sticking to a label of the experience.
Yup, you got it.here's the thing..."I" am still identified with thought a lot of the time...unless "I" am very grounded in the present moment...then the identification with thought melts away....but it comes and goes all the time and there is no control over any of it. It's all just happening regardless of what "i" might "think".
Thanks for thoughts and reflections. But we need to stay on course looking at each area of direct experience in turn, as that's the best way for you to arrive at knowing for certain that there just ain't no separate self nowhere, and never was. We'll move on to thoughts and thinking next but, before we do, please answer these earlier questions so that I can see for sure whether you need to look any more into sense arisings before we move on:
1)Not at all from what thinking is saying, but solely from looking in 'your' actual experience, when looking at a tree, an orange, out of the window or whatever, can you find a 'you', a self-entity, present actually doing the seeing? If so, tell me what it looks like and how it does it.
2)Please do the same with each of the other four senses and let me know whether you can find an experiencer, or is there just hearing, tasting, touching and smelling, as well just seeing.
3)Also can you find any separation/distinction between seeing and the the object that's been seen? The same goes for hearing, touching, tasting and smelling.
Pete x
'Just consciousness taking the shape of experience from moment to moment.
Just this'
Just this'
Re: Seeking a guide
OK Pete! We're back on track :)
There's is no-one tasting...tasting is happening, eating is happening, but "i" can't find and "i" tasting or eating. Chewing is happening - "i" am not controlling it...it's all just happening. labelling is also happening, labelling the experience, but the labelling is not "me" - thought it also happening, but the thought is not "me"
It's the same with seeing, visual data in going in "my" eyes, labelling and thought happens but the labelling & thought isn't "me" the seeing is happening, it can't be controlled.
Same again with touching, this body feels a sense of it touching things, clothing, chairs, tables, laptop keyboard...but the touch on the body is not "me" - it's just a physical sensation happening...the body is not "me" it's a body, there isn't a "me" in the physical body...I've looked and can't find "me" in the body as a whole or in the parts that sense touch. There are sensations in the body, around it, going through it...but the sensations can't be pinned down to belong to an identity either. There's only thought and labelling going on trying to do this but it's not a real thing, it's a thought or label trying to make out it's real.
Smell, I didn't focus a lot on smell today, I am going to have to focus on it more...it's sure to be the same but I'd better look at smell all the same.
Hearing I've spent quite a lot of time, listening and finding just sound streaming through, no sense of separation or "self" in sound/hearing. Labels & thoughts doing what they do but sound is just happening regardless of what thoughts & labels are going on around it.
:)
Solely from looking in "my" actual experience today...here is what "i" found :)1)Not at all from what thinking is saying, but solely from looking in 'your' actual experience, when looking at a tree, an orange, out of the window or whatever, can you find a 'you', a self-entity, present actually doing the seeing? If so, tell me what it looks like and how it does it.
2)Please do the same with each of the other four senses and let me know whether you can find an experiencer, or is there just hearing, tasting, touching and smelling, as well just seeing.
There's is no-one tasting...tasting is happening, eating is happening, but "i" can't find and "i" tasting or eating. Chewing is happening - "i" am not controlling it...it's all just happening. labelling is also happening, labelling the experience, but the labelling is not "me" - thought it also happening, but the thought is not "me"
It's the same with seeing, visual data in going in "my" eyes, labelling and thought happens but the labelling & thought isn't "me" the seeing is happening, it can't be controlled.
Same again with touching, this body feels a sense of it touching things, clothing, chairs, tables, laptop keyboard...but the touch on the body is not "me" - it's just a physical sensation happening...the body is not "me" it's a body, there isn't a "me" in the physical body...I've looked and can't find "me" in the body as a whole or in the parts that sense touch. There are sensations in the body, around it, going through it...but the sensations can't be pinned down to belong to an identity either. There's only thought and labelling going on trying to do this but it's not a real thing, it's a thought or label trying to make out it's real.
Smell, I didn't focus a lot on smell today, I am going to have to focus on it more...it's sure to be the same but I'd better look at smell all the same.
Hearing I've spent quite a lot of time, listening and finding just sound streaming through, no sense of separation or "self" in sound/hearing. Labels & thoughts doing what they do but sound is just happening regardless of what thoughts & labels are going on around it.
Sound - I can find no distinction between the sound & hearing, I've spent more time on this than the other senses. I need to spend more time looking for any possible distinction with sight...I need to do some more relaxed looking at this...and with smell..and with touch.Also can you find any separation/distinction between seeing and the the object that's been seen? The same goes for hearing, touching, tasting and smelling.
:)
Re: Seeking a guide
Hi Anna,
Really good Anna.
Nice observing...
It's clear you're seeing that there's just no separate self needed or present for any of this to happen; it just does:)
Anyway, just keep looking in experience for any boundaries/separation between seer, seeing and what's being seen; hearer, hearing and what's been heard etc. and let me know what you (don't) find. (But, if you've already found that there's no 'you' seeing, hearing etc. i.e. no seer, hearer etc., how could any separation even make sense?)
Ok, let's move on to looking at what, in many ways is at the core of this illusion: thoughts and thinking, to see if a separate self can be found somewhere there.
Not from what you think, but from direct experience, please say:
Where do thoughts come from?
Are you in control of them?
Can you stop a thought from coming?
Can you stop it in the middle?
Do you know what the next thought will be?
Is 'I' a different thought from the thought of say, a table?
Can a thought think?
Finally, just to let you know Anna that I have to go into hospital tomorrow (Wednesday) just for the day for a procedure, so I'll be well out of it for the rest of the day. All being well, I should be ok to reply to your replies on Thursday. So, you've got a bit more time to reply if you want, or just reply as usual. Either will be just fine.
Love,
Pete
There's is no-one tasting...tasting is happening, eating is happening, but "i" can't find and "i" tasting or eating. Chewing is happening - "i" am not controlling it...it's all just happening. labelling is also happening, labelling the experience, but the labelling is not "me" - thought it also happening, but the thought is not "me"
It's the same with seeing, visual data in going in "my" eyes, labelling and thought happens but the labelling & thought isn't "me" the seeing is happening, it can't be controlled.
Really good Anna.
Same again with touching, this body feels a sense of it touching things, clothing, chairs, tables, laptop keyboard...but the touch on the body is not "me" - it's just a physical sensation happening...the body is not "me" it's a body, there isn't a "me" in the physical body...I've looked and can't find "me" in the body as a whole or in the parts that sense touch. There are sensations in the body, around it, going through it...but the sensations can't be pinned down to belong to an identity either. There's only thought and labelling going on trying to do this but it's not a real thing, it's a thought or label trying to make out it's real.
Nice observing...
Hearing I've spent quite a lot of time, listening and finding just sound streaming through, no sense of separation or "self" in sound/hearing. Labels & thoughts doing what they do but sound is just happening regardless of what thoughts & labels are going on around it.
It's clear you're seeing that there's just no separate self needed or present for any of this to happen; it just does:)
Anyway, just keep looking in experience for any boundaries/separation between seer, seeing and what's being seen; hearer, hearing and what's been heard etc. and let me know what you (don't) find. (But, if you've already found that there's no 'you' seeing, hearing etc. i.e. no seer, hearer etc., how could any separation even make sense?)
Ok, let's move on to looking at what, in many ways is at the core of this illusion: thoughts and thinking, to see if a separate self can be found somewhere there.
Not from what you think, but from direct experience, please say:
Where do thoughts come from?
Are you in control of them?
Can you stop a thought from coming?
Can you stop it in the middle?
Do you know what the next thought will be?
Is 'I' a different thought from the thought of say, a table?
Can a thought think?
Finally, just to let you know Anna that I have to go into hospital tomorrow (Wednesday) just for the day for a procedure, so I'll be well out of it for the rest of the day. All being well, I should be ok to reply to your replies on Thursday. So, you've got a bit more time to reply if you want, or just reply as usual. Either will be just fine.
Love,
Pete
'Just consciousness taking the shape of experience from moment to moment.
Just this'
Just this'
Re: Seeking a guide
Hi Pete,
I hope you're all ok & hospital trip goes smoothly!
My sense is there is an expectation that this awareness "should feel" a certain way....like a merging into oneness with the senses and the sense perceiver. I'll just need to go back to being present with direct experience to look at this again and see if the thoughts and labels and expectation melts away.
I don't know where thoughts come from, they just bubble up all the time, all the time I'm awake..when i wake up I can hear them start coming in...they go all day. I'm not in control of them. They sometimes go quiet during moments of stillness & presence but that's not "me' controlling them, that just happens when ever it happens.
I can't stop a thought in the middle...sometimes I can stop a train of thoughts...meaning I'll catch myself thinking something and decide I don't wish to keep going along that path of thinking, so I pay attention to something else. This doesn't seem like controlling them...it's more like creating some diversionary tactic for myself to look somewhere else and engage my attention somewhere else...although is that somehow controlling thought? It doesn't seem like something i've got any control over.
I can't tell what the next thought will be, no. Sometimes thoughts go off on this fantasy adventure, they're telling a story, so there's a story like element to the trail of thoughts, but it would be like trying to guess the next minute in a movie you're watching...you've never seen the movie before, the movie looks like it's setting itself up for the heroine to have some kind of great moment...so you might guess that's what's going to happen next in the movie, but really, you're just guessing...same as you'd be guessing at what the next thought is going to be when it's running along some thought trail.
Will come back to the last 2 questions :)
I hope you're all ok & hospital trip goes smoothly!
It does make sense that if there is no "me" seeing, hearing, tasting etc. then there's no separation between the experience and the experiencer...I've got this "idea" perhaps that it should "feel" more connected...that "I" should feel this sense of merging with the sound/sight/tasting or smelling....It's just more of a thought & labelling process trying to present something as an issue to get hung up on at a guess...Anyway, just keep looking in experience for any boundaries/separation between seer, seeing and what's being seen; hearer, hearing and what's been heard etc. and let me know what you (don't) find. (But, if you've already found that there's no 'you' seeing, hearing etc. i.e. no seer, hearer etc., how could any separation even make sense?)
My sense is there is an expectation that this awareness "should feel" a certain way....like a merging into oneness with the senses and the sense perceiver. I'll just need to go back to being present with direct experience to look at this again and see if the thoughts and labels and expectation melts away.
I can answer these ones now...Where do thoughts come from?
Are you in control of them?
Can you stop a thought from coming?
Can you stop it in the middle?
Do you know what the next thought will be?
I don't know where thoughts come from, they just bubble up all the time, all the time I'm awake..when i wake up I can hear them start coming in...they go all day. I'm not in control of them. They sometimes go quiet during moments of stillness & presence but that's not "me' controlling them, that just happens when ever it happens.
I can't stop a thought in the middle...sometimes I can stop a train of thoughts...meaning I'll catch myself thinking something and decide I don't wish to keep going along that path of thinking, so I pay attention to something else. This doesn't seem like controlling them...it's more like creating some diversionary tactic for myself to look somewhere else and engage my attention somewhere else...although is that somehow controlling thought? It doesn't seem like something i've got any control over.
I can't tell what the next thought will be, no. Sometimes thoughts go off on this fantasy adventure, they're telling a story, so there's a story like element to the trail of thoughts, but it would be like trying to guess the next minute in a movie you're watching...you've never seen the movie before, the movie looks like it's setting itself up for the heroine to have some kind of great moment...so you might guess that's what's going to happen next in the movie, but really, you're just guessing...same as you'd be guessing at what the next thought is going to be when it's running along some thought trail.
Will come back to the last 2 questions :)
Re: Seeking a guide
I'n just coming back to that diversion of thought thread...it's like riding a horse that's galloping along out of control, the horse is going to keep galloping out of control...you can sometimes steer it in a different direction but you can't stop the out of control horse or get off it...same with thoughts...they're happening out of control - sometimes can be steered in a different direction but you can't stop them or just opt out of them...
I had an interesting experience of life that just happens and how "I" really have no control over it...I was making a smoothie, I make these same things every day using the same implements...some days, the process just goes crazy like today, the mixture exploded out of the jug and went all over the place & all over me...this is life happening and there's no reason for that to happen...and there's no control over it...every other day I make these things, this doesn't happen, then sometimes, for some reason, the whole thing explodes everywhere...no control..."i" just "think" "I" have control or "am in control" when "I'm thinking" full stop.
I had an interesting experience of life that just happens and how "I" really have no control over it...I was making a smoothie, I make these same things every day using the same implements...some days, the process just goes crazy like today, the mixture exploded out of the jug and went all over the place & all over me...this is life happening and there's no reason for that to happen...and there's no control over it...every other day I make these things, this doesn't happen, then sometimes, for some reason, the whole thing explodes everywhere...no control..."i" just "think" "I" have control or "am in control" when "I'm thinking" full stop.
Re: Seeking a guide
Hi Anna,
Thanks for your good wishes. The hospital visit went well.
Excellent Anna. And, just to be sure, when actually seeing, hearing etc, that is - directly from experience - are there any boundaries at all to be found?
Yes, you're right; it's those pesky expectations again! Just gently returning to the present, noticing all appearances as they arise, accepting all (including all thoughts) is all you need to do. And remember, there's no point forcing it; this being aware of awareness will come and go as and when it pleases, but it's a habit worth cultivating - and there's no separate self to be found there, ever.
Couldn't put it better myself :)
I know that when 'I' become aware of a thought, i.e. the light of awareness 'spontaneously' falls on a thought, mysteriously that thought stops in its tracks and is gone. Is that the kind of thing you mean by stopping a train of thoughts? Or is there a self-entity that you can see in experience that actually stops a train of thoughts, decides not to continue with it and then deliberately pays attention to something else? If so, please describe it and how it functions.
Nice analogy.
Hmm... so what is it that steers? Can you find an actual entity steering or doing anything at all, or again is it just a thought telling you that, with thinking just happening 'of its own accord' without any self there doing anything'?
No worries, I'm only looking for certainty with the above two supplementary questions - you seem to me to have clearly seen through the illusion of a thinker thinking thoughts. So, let's have a look at doing - actions and control, to see if you can find a separate self there:
It's clear that when we breathe, blink, digest food etc. there's no 'I' involved, but how is it for you when walking?
How is it when doing various everyday things like say, brushing your teeth, washing up, that kind of thing? Try all kinds of stuff.
Is there any 'I' there for any of these actions, or are they just like 'automatic'?
Pete x
Thanks for your good wishes. The hospital visit went well.
It does make sense that if there is no "me" seeing, hearing, tasting etc. then there's no separation between the experience and the experiencer...I've got this "idea" perhaps that it should "feel" more connected...that "I" should feel this sense of merging with the sound/sight/tasting or smelling....It's just more of a thought & labelling process trying to present something as an issue to get hung up on at a guess...
Excellent Anna. And, just to be sure, when actually seeing, hearing etc, that is - directly from experience - are there any boundaries at all to be found?
My sense is there is an expectation that this awareness "should feel" a certain way....like a merging into oneness with the senses and the sense perceiver. I'll just need to go back to being present with direct experience to look at this again and see if the thoughts and labels and expectation melts away.
Yes, you're right; it's those pesky expectations again! Just gently returning to the present, noticing all appearances as they arise, accepting all (including all thoughts) is all you need to do. And remember, there's no point forcing it; this being aware of awareness will come and go as and when it pleases, but it's a habit worth cultivating - and there's no separate self to be found there, ever.
I don't know where thoughts come from, they just bubble up all the time, all the time I'm awake..when i wake up I can hear them start coming in...they go all day. I'm not in control of them. They sometimes go quiet during moments of stillness & presence but that's not "me' controlling them, that just happens when ever it happens.
Couldn't put it better myself :)
I can't stop a thought in the middle...sometimes I can stop a train of thoughts...meaning I'll catch myself thinking something and decide I don't wish to keep going along that path of thinking, so I pay attention to something else.
I know that when 'I' become aware of a thought, i.e. the light of awareness 'spontaneously' falls on a thought, mysteriously that thought stops in its tracks and is gone. Is that the kind of thing you mean by stopping a train of thoughts? Or is there a self-entity that you can see in experience that actually stops a train of thoughts, decides not to continue with it and then deliberately pays attention to something else? If so, please describe it and how it functions.
it would be like trying to guess the next minute in a movie you're watching...you've never seen the movie before, the movie looks like it's setting itself up for the heroine to have some kind of great moment...so you might guess that's what's going to happen next in the movie, but really, you're just guessing...same as you'd be guessing at what the next thought is going to be when it's running along some thought trail.
Nice analogy.
...same with thoughts...they're happening out of control - sometimes can be steered in a different direction but you can't stop them or just opt out of them...
Hmm... so what is it that steers? Can you find an actual entity steering or doing anything at all, or again is it just a thought telling you that, with thinking just happening 'of its own accord' without any self there doing anything'?
No worries, I'm only looking for certainty with the above two supplementary questions - you seem to me to have clearly seen through the illusion of a thinker thinking thoughts. So, let's have a look at doing - actions and control, to see if you can find a separate self there:
It's clear that when we breathe, blink, digest food etc. there's no 'I' involved, but how is it for you when walking?
How is it when doing various everyday things like say, brushing your teeth, washing up, that kind of thing? Try all kinds of stuff.
Is there any 'I' there for any of these actions, or are they just like 'automatic'?
Pete x
'Just consciousness taking the shape of experience from moment to moment.
Just this'
Just this'
Re: Seeking a guide
Hi Pete :)
No, there are no boundaries, there just is...is-ness. Nothing exists except life being experienced, thoughts & labelling...but life keeps happening regardless of everything else going on...I guess life is just all there is going on really.just to be sure, when actually seeing, hearing etc, that is - directly from experience - are there any boundaries at all to be found?
I don't know if the thoughts actually stop and are gone, this happens sometimes, but other times they just change direction...the words make a lot more sense that the thoughts can change direction and go off on some other tangent than when i look to see if "i" am changing them...because the more "i" look, the less "i" can find anyone or anything actually controlling or doing anything or making anything happen.that thought stops in its tracks and is gone. Is that the kind of thing you mean by stopping a train of thoughts? Or is there a self-entity that you can see in experience that actually stops a train of thoughts, decides not to continue with it and then deliberately pays attention to something else?
So the trail of thoughts can shift, like a current in a river moving someplace else of it's own accord almost...there isn't an "i" than can "make" anything happen at all..."I" can't find a "me" that can make anything happen...but from what I've noticed, thoughts can move along like currents in a river and they don't follow a linear path, like a river current, they can swirl all over the place and get sucked everywhere and anywhere...and they seem to happen just like a river current too actually...there's about the same level of non-stop movement and flow of thoughts as there is a fairly steady river current, sometimes stronger, sometimes calmer...but always streaming along with very occasional moments of stillness and relative quiet.find an actual entity steering or doing anything at all, or again is it just a thought telling you that, with thinking just happening 'of its own accord' without any self there doing anything
Re: Seeking a guide
I'll need to spend some more time really looking/investigating the above...in other words be present and pat attention as I'm generally wandering along lost in thought/identification with thought rather than really being present with these activities...It's clear that when we breathe, blink, digest food etc. there's no 'I' involved, but how is it for you when walking?
How is it when doing various everyday things like say, brushing your teeth, washing up, that kind of thing? Try all kinds of stuff.
Is there any 'I' there for any of these actions, or are they just like 'automatic'?
What I wrote previously though does relate to this for a starting look....Re learning how to drive vs breathing just happening, not being a learned thing...this body has had to learn things then it just happens as part of the flow of life after the initial learning...
so it's not so much like "i" had to learn stuff, this energy system/body had to learn things in order to do certain tasks in life...then the body/energy system encodes the program and just "does" it...there isn't a "me" or "i" thinking about how to "do the thing" or make the program work...it just works...does whatever the program has been taught to do...like cleaning my teeth...there isn't "i" or "me" thinking about "how" to clean my teeth...what physical functions have to be performed to clean my teeth....this just happens....but I will look some more at it all the same.
Chat soon pete :)
Re: Seeking a guide
Hi Anna,
Yeh!
Lovely analogy and imagery with a river.
Yeah, I find it endlessly fascinating how learning happens throughout life, throughout nature. Yet another illustration how a separate self is a nonsensical concept.
Just take your time and, as you do these everyday things just look to see if you can find any sign of a separate entity present or doing or enabling whatever it is that you're presently doing. Thoughts will come and go! As they do. Just let them do their thing and simply look.
I'm going away for the weekend to recuperate, so no rush. I'll be back to respond to your replies on Monday. Have a lovely weekend Anna.
Pete x
No, there are no boundaries, there just is...is-ness. Nothing exists except life being experienced, thoughts & labelling...but life keeps happening regardless of everything else going on...I guess life is just all there is going on really.
Yeh!
So the trail of thoughts can shift, like a current in a river moving someplace else of it's own accord almost...there isn't an "i" than can "make" anything happen at all..."I" can't find a "me" that can make anything happen...but from what I've noticed, thoughts can move along like currents in a river and they don't follow a linear path, like a river current, they can swirl all over the place and get sucked everywhere and anywhere...and they seem to happen just like a river current too actually...there's about the same level of non-stop movement and flow of thoughts as there is a fairly steady river current, sometimes stronger, sometimes calmer...but always streaming along with very occasional moments of stillness and relative quiet.
Lovely analogy and imagery with a river.
What I wrote previously though does relate to this for a starting look....Re learning how to drive vs breathing just happening, not being a learned thing...this body has had to learn things then it just happens as part of the flow of life after the initial learning.
Yeah, I find it endlessly fascinating how learning happens throughout life, throughout nature. Yet another illustration how a separate self is a nonsensical concept.
I'll need to spend some more time really looking/investigating the above...in other words be present and pat attention as I'm generally wandering along lost in thought/identification with thought rather than really being present with these activities..
Just take your time and, as you do these everyday things just look to see if you can find any sign of a separate entity present or doing or enabling whatever it is that you're presently doing. Thoughts will come and go! As they do. Just let them do their thing and simply look.
I'm going away for the weekend to recuperate, so no rush. I'll be back to respond to your replies on Monday. Have a lovely weekend Anna.
Pete x
'Just consciousness taking the shape of experience from moment to moment.
Just this'
Just this'
Re: Seeking a guide
Hey Pete - I've been offline since Friday as well, coming back to answer this properly later today/tonight! :)
Re: Seeking a guide
Ok Anna - looking forward to hearing from you.
Pete x
Pete x
'Just consciousness taking the shape of experience from moment to moment.
Just this'
Just this'
Re: Seeking a guide
Hi Pete :) just coming back to this...
This of course passed/subsided after a while to the more usual state of awareness where thoughts & labelling run rampant and the feeling of separation is more apparent than the feeling of total one-ness in a single flow of life...that's just being in a state of non-presence and imagining that "I" am more my thoughts and labelling. The experience during the meditation was just a very useful experience of what we have been discussing in a very embodied/experiential manner.
"I" have found that almost all actions are automatic, there is no "I" there directing them. When there is something new to learn, it doesn't feel automatic...but it's also not as if there is an "i" learning the new thing....it's the same as before, if I look for an "i" doing anything, there is no "i' to be found.
So, all I can come up with for what happens when I'm learning something new is that this body and this brain are taking in new information and processing it, storing it and then running the program a few times until it becomes automatic like every other function this living system has encoded into "itself" to carry out certain functions. Once the program has been run a few times, the new information and any actions associated with it become automatic like any others.
Back to you pete!
On saturday during a group meditation, "I" slipped into a state of awareness where every person in the room was the one energy, one consciousness. Probably because of the directing of attention to this that we've been doing lately..."I" also experienced very clearly the sense the the seer, seeing and seen are the same, it was more so with sound but all senses, everything was the one flow of life energy, no separation and no distinction.It's clear that when we breathe, blink, digest food etc. there's no 'I' involved, but how is it for you when walking?
How is it when doing various everyday things like say, brushing your teeth, washing up, that kind of thing? Try all kinds of stuff.
Is there any 'I' there for any of these actions, or are they just like 'automatic'?
This of course passed/subsided after a while to the more usual state of awareness where thoughts & labelling run rampant and the feeling of separation is more apparent than the feeling of total one-ness in a single flow of life...that's just being in a state of non-presence and imagining that "I" am more my thoughts and labelling. The experience during the meditation was just a very useful experience of what we have been discussing in a very embodied/experiential manner.
"I" have found that almost all actions are automatic, there is no "I" there directing them. When there is something new to learn, it doesn't feel automatic...but it's also not as if there is an "i" learning the new thing....it's the same as before, if I look for an "i" doing anything, there is no "i' to be found.
So, all I can come up with for what happens when I'm learning something new is that this body and this brain are taking in new information and processing it, storing it and then running the program a few times until it becomes automatic like every other function this living system has encoded into "itself" to carry out certain functions. Once the program has been run a few times, the new information and any actions associated with it become automatic like any others.
Back to you pete!
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