Looking for a guide thro this process. please help

[Ilona]

hi Sharon,

thank you for answers.
you say

There appears to be layers of thoughts, they manifest in labels that have been identifiers for me. ... Generally they present one at a time.

can you tell me when thoughts do not come one at a time? how layers of thoughts are experienced actually? is thought "layers" made of layers?

for me what gets "freed" is "LIFE" to be lived to the fulness and richness that It is meant to be right here and now.

lovely! yess.



sending love

[goingwithin]

tell me when thoughts do not come one at a time? how layers of thoughts are experienced actually? is thought "layers" made of layers?

Hi Ilona,

There are times when it feels as if there is a bombardment of thoughts like when I'm unsure of something and am questioning the validity of thoughts. Possibly over analytical which gets me all tangled up at times. For example when I look at choice or lack there of, what presents itself is the thought that if I don't have choice why do I get up in the morning? How do I choose not to eat what I know will make me ill or god forbid fat LOL. In answering these questions there is a lot of different answers that present themselves but a choice has to be made as to which is the truth and which is just thoughts happening. They are all just thoughts happening so what chooses whats true and whats not.Felt sense?? but thoughts come up that contradict that or question it till I am turned around and unable to understand what is being questioned...I than stop, quieten the mind and observe but thoughts come in that make me insecure, ego grasping on for its existence which strikes me as funny and an oxymoron as it "ego" in itself is just thought. These are the kind of layers I refers to Ilona. Logic trying to prevail. Which is just egoic thought. Hope I don't sound like I've lost my mind..which I hope I have lol if you understand my meaning. Lots of fun playing with all this.

What other questions do you have to guide me through these gates Ilona or am I just a lost cause lol...being nothing that wouldn't be too far from the truth. Ha ha ha just poking fun !!

Once again Blessings and Love Ilona.

Sharon.

[Ilona]

Let's look at choice.
Tell me what choise does a bird have? To sing or not to sing..what song to sing? What choice does a rose have- to be a daisy or a butterfly?
Can you see that in nature, there is no choise, there is no chooser. Rain starts when conditions are ripe, there is no Rainer that decides that, it simply happens.

Same is with thinking, feeling, sensing.
Test this:

Lift your right arm above the head. Do it now, before reading further.

.......

Did it happen? How did it happen? Was there a decision made to lift the arm before or after it lifted?
What made it lift (or not) ?

Through the day try this exercise a few times and watch how it happens, what initiates it? Is there a choice to do it or not?

Write what you notice.
Sending love.

[goingwithin]

Hi Ilona,

Thank you for this reply and I will try this exercise fo sure. Interesting, I have done this before but forgot about it. I could answer now but would like to observe it some more. I may not be able to reply for a couple of day though as life is rather full but it will give me the time to get into this and get back to you with I hope some insightful DE .

Blessings and lots of love this weekend.

Sharon.

[goingwithin]

Did it happen? How did it happen? Was there a decision made to lift the arm before or after it lifted?
What made it lift (or not) ?

Hi Ilona,

Yes it did happen, it just did..no decision was felt however when I tried this throughout the day for example choosing an item of clothing, choice was required and I noticed thoughts happening. This was the trend throughout the day when attention was put on a matter of choice but only when I was aware ...aha. So when awareness is sensed thoughts are employed..or maybe visa verse.. then conscious choice happens. I tried looking at the question again and didn't lift my hand though I chose not to as thoughts happened and I was testing my theory . .. is this ego grasping onto nothing to make a story for me to believe so that I give up ?? maybe.. frustration is happening Ilona sorry..please help me out of this one.

Love and blessings your way.

Sharon.

[Ilona]

What we call conscious choice is a description of choice that already happened, narrated in the way that suposed a subject- the chooser. But... Watch closely, what happens first- an impulse to do something, action or thinking about it, describing and labeling it as "I chose that"? Can you see that choise is something that flows out of situation and conditions as the next step to be taken? Or do you have free will and can choose whatever you like independently of conditions? Examine this.

Sounds that you imagine that there is some kind of entity ego that makes you believe, and do stuff that it wants. Well, what is this ego? Is thought "ego" a director of what is happening? Do you have ego? Or ego has you? Where is it? What is the relationship between what you call you and want you call ego? Can you expand on that please.

Sending love.

[goingwithin]

What we call conscious choice is a description of choice that already happened, narrated in the way that suposed a subject- the chooser. But... Watch closely, what happens first- an impulse to do something, action or thinking about it, describing and labeling it as "I chose that"? Can you see that choise is something that flows out of situation and conditions as the next step to be taken? .

Hi Ilona,

Again thank you for this. As I read the line that it was a choice that "already happened", I had an instant understanding that the choice that I was perceiving had already been made yes. Then thought happens as you so aptly referred to as "narrated" and the subject presented itself, but there was no chooser only on reflection..looking back.. not in the moment. I have found recall to lie so there is no trust in it's content (the thought). Yes the impulse comes first , then thought but there is a small nano second where there appears to be conscious thought but if I try to stay with it (in essence control it) there is a sense that i can control it but on inquiry it has disappeared before just as I sense it. Like the fluttering of a hummingbirds wings as seen though the human eye. So yes I see that it flows out of the situation as it arrises to be acted upon or as you said next step to be taken.

Sounds that you imagine that there is some kind of entity ego that makes you believe, and do stuff that it wants. Well, what is this ego?

Yes Ilona ego as I understand it is a thought of " me", a label or identifier. It causes me a lot of grief lol. when I have an emotional thought it manifests as a viselike grip in the chest and abdominal area. If I stay with it to analyze it further it pulsates but then thought comes into play and what I relate to as "ego" puts a logical thought to it and the exercise is lost. This has been very apparent in the last couple of days as I witness the ego jump into action through a break up of a relationship. Tears anger hurt frustration are happening and thoughts are whizzing by ..Im aware of them and try to allow them to pass but get caught in some of them as the ego latches onto it. These I see as old patterns of thought. They still hurt. Not sure what to do to get past that connection between the thought and grasping on. Frustration is here. Sorry.

I’ll reflect more on this Ilona but would love more of your insight .

Love and blessings,
Sharon

[Ilona]

Again thank you for this. As I read the line that it was a choice that "already happened", I had an instant understanding that the choice that I was perceiving had already been made yes. Then thought happens as you so aptly referred to as "narrated" and the subject presented itself, but there was no chooser only on reflection..looking back.. not in the moment. I have found recall to lie so there is no trust in it's content (the thought). Yes the impulse comes first , then thought but there is a small nano second where there appears to be conscious thought but if I try to stay with it (in essence control it) there is a sense that i can control it but on inquiry it has disappeared before just as I sense it. Like the fluttering of a hummingbirds wings as seen though the human eye. So yes I see that it flows out of the situation as it arrises to be acted upon or as you said next step to be taken.

Lovely. Yes all flows out of situation, situation and next step arises interdependently.


You say that ego is a thought of me. Then you say that it causes me a lot of grief. How does that work? Is thought "me" an entity? Can a thought feel grief? Is there a feeler needed for feeling to arise? Right now, notice sensations and look, what is that these sensations are happening to? To a thought? To a sensation? To open space? What is behind sensation?

Is thought of me jumping into action? Or action happens, then thoughts follow? Thoughts that label that "me" "I did that", "ego"?
What happens if your replace word ego with word character? Does character jump into action and is attempting to control what is happening? Can you see, that thoughts about habits and behaviours are descriptions, not the doer?

What else do you notice?

Sending love.

[goingwithin]

Thank you Ilona,
This is awesome...I will have to get back to you on this though as I have an appointment . Blessings sent.
Sharon.

[goingwithin]

Hi Ilona I'm ready to reply now,

You say that ego is a thought of me. Then you say that it causes me a lot of grief. How does that work? Is thought "me" an entity? Can a thought feel grief? Is there a feeler needed for feeling to arise? Right now, notice sensations and look, what is that these sensations are happening to? To a thought? To a sensation? To open space? What is behind sensation?

No the thought of me is not an entity but a thought construct...Sharon woman mother etc. A thought can’t feel grief it “is” the grief. No nothing is needed it just arises just appears. As I watch the thought arises followed by the sensations, tightening of the chest/heart..abdominals .. Tears flow and there is tightening in the throat. They are just happening. I can’t find where or what they are attached to just that they are happening right now as in awareness. Happening to nothingness emptiness. wow, there is just space behind the sensation. The mind quietens and the sensations fade .. just a dull sensation left.

Is thought of me jumping into action? Or action happens, then thoughts follow? Thoughts that label that "me" "I did that", "ego"?
What happens if your replace word ego with word character? Does character jump into action and is attempting to control what is happening? Can you see, that thoughts about habits and behaviors are descriptions, not the doer.

Yes, and thank you, putting “character” in place of “ego” does help..(you’ve done this before I can tell LOL.)
It is easier to see that these thoughts are nothing more than descriptions of thoughts. Good to know lol .. Just hope to be able to recall this fact when/if those sensations arise again. Take a deep breath and be in the moment right??

What else do you notice?

That this emotional roller coaster that I’ve been on is no fun and I want off !!! Thank you again Ilona. Lots of cleansing tonight.

Blessings and love as always,

Sharon

[goingwithin]

Hi Ilona,
Last night I had sensations happen but there was no thought. As I was aware of them thought kicked in. Strange as it has been the other way around or maybe not. Once again memory projected back is not the truth just a memory, and not to be trusted. However it struck me as odd but not unfamiliar. Not sure if it has any real relevance but for some reason felt the need to share that thought.

Again thank you for your time Ilona. Love Sharon

[Ilona]

Thank you very much for writing. I can see that the process is full on. It is intense at times. What helps most is allowing all sensations and emotions, feelings to be ok. It's ok to feel whatever it feels. An you can see that feeling is not the same as thought. Thought describes what is experienced and at the same time creates a story about it.

Try this exercise. Take a fruit. Notice it's shape and form, texture, weight, colour, size. See how you get all information about it. Which sense perception informs about the size, weight, texture?

Take a pen and describe what sensations were felt through touch and vision.

Smell the fruit, take a bite.
Notice what is going on with perceiving.

Write down what you notice about the taste and smell. ( writing it down is important part of this exercise )

Eat half the fruit and enjoy it as fully as you are able, noticing flavour and texture.

Then have a look at what descriptions you wrote on a paper and compare the words, concepts to actual experience of the perceiving.

Do thoughts touch experience or come close to it?

Write wwhat you learned form this.

Sending love.

[goingwithin]

HI Ilona,
I am tired tonight and want to give this an honest effort so I'll get to try this tomorrow . Again Thanks and blessing in love,

Sharon.

[goingwithin]

Thanks you Ilona, here goes,

Try this exercise. Take a fruit. Notice it's shape and form, texture, weight, colour, size. See how you get all information about it. Which sense perception informs about the size, weight, texture?

It is a banana that I have chosen. What I notice about it is :
It is long and cylindrical in shape tapered at each end. The skin is dull and yellow in colour, it feels dense in weight as I pick it up. It is about 9 inches long and 1 1/2 inches in diameter. The skin feels smooth and waxy.

The shape,size, colour and form were sensed through vision.
The weight through touch as I lifted it up.
Texture felt through touch also as I held it and feft the skin with my finger tips and palm.

Smell the fruit, take a bite.
Notice what is going on with perceiving.

What is noticed is it has a very strong sweet earthy, almost nutty smell.
Biting into it is fleshy soft and smooth with a slightly grainy stingy texture to it. Tasted very sweet with a dense quality to it. Both senses almost felt at once, as in the smell and taste merged into one another.

Eat half the fruit and enjoy it as fully as you are able, noticing flavour and texture.Then have a look at what descriptions you wrote on a paper and compare the words, concepts to actual experience of the perceiving.

What was noticed was that perception was dull in comparison to the actual experience. The actual experience was richer and fired up the senses where perception couldn’t capture that fullness. Wow..nice lol.

Do thoughts touch experience or come close to it?

They”Thoughts“come fairly close but lack the full richness of actual experience.

What I’ve learned is that thoughts can’t be trusted as they lack clarity of actual experience.

Once again thank you Ilona, looking forward to the next exercise. Nice playing with you.

love and blessings,

Sharon.

[Ilona]

Good work, Sharon.
Here is another exercise for you:

Take a look closer how mind creates images and how an image is different from what is happening, what IS.

Close your eyes and imagine you are in the kitchen. Just visualise and look around, notice where things are put.
This is an image, it can trigger feelings and contractions - expansions.

Open eyes and see how a image can be created and explored in the mind.

Go to the kitchen and look at same things that you saw in the image, how does imagining and experiencing same things differ?

What is the main difference between what is in actuality and mind images?

Is I, me, the separate self something that can be observed in actuality or only in images?
What does that mean?


Sending love.