Waking up permanently?

[stikik]

Yes .. did some more investigating tonight .. Started with relaxed breathing to slow down the thoughts, as well as a steady asana in order to distance the body-feeling. Ignoring the thoughts, I first focused on counting the breaths, then placed my whole attention on the third eye. This is what it looked like:

Between or behind the thoughts I see nothing .. just a blank ..

I noticed that the thoughts that distracted me from time to time, all had an element of "I" or "me" in them. I.e. "I like this/ I don't like that", "I should do this", "I must remember to do that that", etc. They all seem to refer to "me" - the person in some way .. This lead me to consider that "I", "me", "mine" could also simply be a thought .. a thought that is a common element in all thoughts .. perhaps a root-element, or an afterthought ..

However, I could never see this "I" element in the thoughts .. perhaps it happened too quickly .. it could also be that if is taken for granted, and therefore not noticed .. This got me really curious .. Who am I? .. What is "I"? Is it really a thought no different from any of the other notions that pass through my mind? .. If so, that would be a staggering discovery .. But I need to see it happening before I can really believe it ..

After a while, the thoughts became more and more absurd an non-descript, and it is time to get some sleep :)
I will investigate more in the morning when I am fresh and rested!

Thanks, Cam-RT, for not giving up on me :) I really appreciate your patience and guidance in this :)
Am I on the right track? Any tips on how to notice this elusive "I"-thought? (if that is what it is) ..

[Cam-RT]

Yes!! Stian excellent work!!....You've seen it!!


[quote="Stian"]Between or behind the thoughts I see nothing .. just a blank ..[quote/]


You needed to see this...to find the truth for yourself...You will find that each time you connect with each thought and inquire you'll get the same outcome!!


[quote="Stian"] I noticed that the thoughts thatyou distracted me from time to time, all had an element of "I" or "me" in them. I.e. "I like this/ I don't like that", "I should do this", "I must remember to do that that", etc. They all seem to refer to "me" - the person in some way .. This lead me to consider that "I", "me", "mine" could also simply be a thought[quote/]


Again yes, all these thoughts help feed and reinforce "The Self"...


[quote="Stian"]This got me really curious .. Who am I? .. What is "I"? Is it really a thought no different from any of the other notions that pass through my mind?[quote/]

You hit the bullseye from the start!!....There is no " I ". I'm so proud to see that you've seen it....


Okay Stian, I need to ask you some questions to help confirm that you in fact have crossed "The Gate"...

Now take your time and Please read over these questions and elaborate as much as possible in your answers...

1)  Is there a 'me' , at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2)   Explain in detail what the illusion of self is, when it starts and how it works.

3) How does it feel to see this?

4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion ?

5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you really look?

[stikik]

1) Is there a 'me' , at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

Yes. There is a "me" in language. It is a word used to point to a particular individual, "me".
A "me" is also present as a psychological component in the habitual way of thinking and perceiving.
However, this habitual way of thinking and perceiving is fooling us into believing that the "me" is something real.
"Me" is just an abstract concept, nowhere to be found in reality, nor was it ever.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of self is, when it starts and how it works.

"The illusion of self" seems to be a psychological self-referencing-mechanism.
I think it starts around the age of 3-4, when we are able to recognize ourselves in a mirror.
It probably works by abstraction, the mind forming an image of it's own individuality, building a self-image, from sensations from the body, the mind, and from memory (experience). As this image is very strong and compelling, we identify with it, treating it as "I", when it is really just an image.

3) How does it feel to see this?

It sort of feels like a knot (that was not really a knot) was pulled out and became a straight rope. The "outside" world has become less .. pressing .. It is as if I am watching myself going through the day, and not really feeling interested or stressed (If I do, it is not the real me who feels this, but the self-image that experiences it, and I can sort of enjoy it, no matter if it is "good" or "bad" :) .. I feel much more relaxed about how things turn out .. It feels like living from a place deeper within than before.

4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion ?

I think I would just say it plainly, like this: What we normally think of as "my self" is not the real self, it is just an image we create to better survive and navigate life. This image is hypnotic and compelling, and we quickly fall under it's spell and identify with it, thinking "this is me". The real identity of a human, however, is the pure existence that is at the "bottom" of the psyche. When you strip away everything, you are left with a sense of simply being, existing, without the body and without thoughts, and this is the real identity. Everything is sort of filtering out from this. The self-image is just an image, and not the real you.
I don't think they would get it, though .. But I would be able to say "told you so!" to the ones that bother to go through a proper investigation later :) ..

5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you really look?

I am not sure .. Perhaps it was frustration .. Maybe the feeling of not getting anywhere and getting frustrated meant that it was time to have a proper look.


Well .. I must say I am a bit confused by this .. It feels a bit anti-climatic .. Was that it? Is the search over? Now what? I wonder if I should not continue investigating this notion of identity, as a lot of what I mentioned is more intuition than actual experience (I have not actually "seen" the "me" thought in action, I was just speculating that it might be the common component in all thought, plus - what is the connection between the "blank" and the thoughts?) Or maybe I am just reluctant to give up the search? .. I don't know ..


Stian

[Cam-RT]

Hey Stian,

Looks good, though other liberators need to look and ring in on any questions they may have so I'll be asking additional questions if they feel there needs to be any clarification on anything...So bare with us while everyone rings in...

Anyway, you mentioned...

Well .. I must say I am a bit confused by this .. It feels a bit anti-climatic .. Was that it? Is the search over? Now what? I wonder if I should not continue investigating this notion of identity, as a lot of what I mentioned is more intuition than actual experience (I have not actually "seen" the "me" thought in action, I was just speculating that it might be the common component in all thought, plus - what is the connection between the "blank" and the thoughts?) Or maybe I am just reluctant to give up the search? .. I don't know ..

Jed McKenna... Said it best that even after the discovery of Awakeing, it's the start of a new journey with new eye's...And alway's remember the key word in this leg of your journey is "FURTHER" always further your journey in seeing the truth...

Seeing the "blank" or nothing is exactly what's behind these thought constructs...The "connection or identification" is in fact to nothing but the illusion of self...The illusion isn't destroyed just seen and understood for what it is....nothing.

Like I said every time you challenge these thoughts you'll find the same answer...

[Cam-RT]

Hey, Stian...

For the most part the questions were answered good and one liberator agreed yet, there seems to be some clarity that needs to be added to question #4...

Let me rephrase this question a bit...remember take your time and think it over a bit, before you answer. Don't tell me what you think you want me to hear, tell it like it is... :^)

4) How would you liberate someone who has never encountered this " No-You" concept before?

[stikik]

4) How would you liberate someone who has never encountered this " No-You" concept before?

Ok .. here goes .. I guess the ideal method would depend on a lot of things, for instance: The personality of the person in question, the situation the person is in, the kind of relation I have with this person .. I think I would try many different approaches and hope for the best .. The one approach that I have experience with myself from this forum, is a type of one-on-one contemplative question-based approach which seems to work very well, and I would probably go for that .. Ask questions like: Find your identity, your real identity, deep down .. One could take "level by level" so to speak .. start with the body - Is the body who you are? .. No, because you are still "you" when you are asleep, and you are not registering signals from the body .. next, are the emotions and the moods "you"? .. are the thoughts "you"? etc .. Prompt the person to really investigate, and find that "thing" which is at the bottom of it all, which is her real identity .. Of course, the crucial point is to see that the "I" is a thought too, a "self-reflective" element in the stream of thought .. After some investigation (meditation) it should become clear that this reflecting back on thought or experience in the form of an "I" is not necessary - that it all happens by itself anyway .. and the "I" that we fool ourselves with is simply an extra "loop" in the process that runs by itself .. (i.e. "empty") .. The doing does not depend on "you" doing it, it is simply doing .. However, I think this is easy to misunderstand .. The thing is to look for the self, not finding it, do deeper, and ask "who is looking" .. Then you notice that the "looking" is really happening by itself - there is no "me" there doing the looking - it is simply looking ..

I don't know if I would really care to do this though .. Why run around waking everybody up? It's nice to sleep too .. But if I was forced to do it, or someone begged me to help them with this, I might try something like what I described ..

I think also, that it is not quite true that "the self is nothing" .. As far as I can see, it is simply the case that this "self" cannot see itself .. just like an eye is not able to see itself .. It is impossible to know whether it is "something" or "nothing", and so the existence or non-existence of the self really has nothing to do with it ..
However - to say that "the self is empty", or "the self does not exist" can be a way of getting someone going in this direction, and thus serve a purpose in that way ..

I would like to add that I have been feeling quite pissed off for a few days now about this process .. I felt sort of cheated by the whole thing .. I went along, expecting to find out something, and in the end, I only understood that there was nothing to find out .. It felt sort of like when a magic-trick is explained .. suddenly you are wiser, but then the magic is not so much fun after that .. I almost wish I had not asked to see how the illusion was done .. so you can see it was a bit of an anti-climax .. However, I also recognize that this is a very important thing to realize, and that this is actually profound wisdom, and an important part of growing up ..

For this reason, I would be hesitant to get others to realize the same thing .. What do I care if people are awake or sleeping? .. Let them sleep, I say! .. It does not matter in the end anyway .. And sleep is just as "good" as awakening .. But like I say - if someone was pestering me about it, I would probably suggest something along the lines of a combination of self-analysis and contemplation .. Also, I think that one can sort of come too quickly to this realization .. there could be a very good reason why people stay "asleep" .. it's almost as if they need to suffer quite a lot before they are ready to go on and get real about existence .. Of course I don't want people to suffer, but then again I think it is useless to argue about this with people - they have to be ready for it themselves first ..

[Cam-RT]

Hey, Stian...

I just had to ring in on this part of your answer...

I think also, that it is not quite true that "the self is nothing" .. As far as I can see, it is simply the case that this "self" cannot see itself .. just like an eye is not able to see itself .. It is impossible to know whether it is "something" or "nothing", and so the existence or non-existence of the self really has nothing to do with it ..
However - to say that "the self is empty", or "the self does not exist" can be a way of getting someone going in this direction, and thus serve a purpose in that way ..

In pointing we try to emphasize that in fact that thoughts are merely masking and distracting, those who choose to see and free themselves from, the thought construct of an "I or self"...ultimately living in the present, and ending identifacation to a nonexistent Being called a Self...

The body and mind, are the "life support" for the "life force" within...There is no additional self that is contained within... A single awareness that's all...

I would like to add that I have been feeling quite pissed off for a few days now about this process .. I felt sort of cheated by the whole thing .. I went along, expecting to find out something, and in the end, I only understood that there was nothing to find out .. It felt sort of like when a magic-trick is explained .. suddenly you are wiser, but then the magic is not so much fun after that .. I almost wish I had not asked to see how the illusion was done .. so you can see it was a bit of an anti-climax .. However, I also recognize that this is a very important thing to realize, and that this is actually profound wisdom, and an important part of growing up ..

For this reason, I would be hesitant to get others to realize the same thing .. What do I care if people are awake or sleeping? .. Let them sleep, I say! .. It does not matter in the end anyway .. And sleep is just as "good" as awakening .. But like I say - if someone was pestering me about it, I would probably suggest something along the lines of a combination of self-analysis and contemplation .. Also, I think that one can sort of come too quickly to this realization .. there could be a very good reason why people stay "asleep" .. it's almost as if they need to suffer quite a lot before they are ready to go on and get real about existence .. Of course I don't want people to suffer, but then again I think it is useless to argue about this with people - they have to be ready for it themselves first ..

After reading this part, I was quite amused ( don't get me wrong.) Yes , you have a point here...I just loved the way you approached the question in this fashion, I generally inform people ( like the person that liberated me) after this process that you need to be careful who you approach about this new found "gift" cause lets face it, ( excuse my French ;^). People don't like to have their "belief systems" fucked with and in some cases, can and will react unfavorably if challenged, with this knowledge...

Actually looking back myself, I remember thinking " Damb! This so frigging simple why was it so hard for me to actually see this anyway!?!?" <---you have to see it yourself to actually understand "The Truth"...Sorry it pissed you off ;^)

Jed McKenna refers to awakening like "human adulthood"....Transending from (of course) a childhood state where as preferring to live within the illusion or fantasy / "dream" state...or also called asleep...<---Be careful with this around people, this will piss them off too!!!

Okay, so let's have my fellow guides have another look at our thread and see if there's any other questions...Thank You for patients, and an excellent part of your journey with me...Cam-RT.

[stikik]

I just had to ring in on this part of your answer...

Stian wrote:I think also, that it is not quite true that "the self is nothing" .. As far as I can see, it is simply the case that this "self" cannot see itself .. just like an eye is not able to see itself .. It is impossible to know whether it is "something" or "nothing", and so the existence or non-existence of the self really has nothing to do with it ..
However - to say that "the self is empty", or "the self does not exist" can be a way of getting someone going in this direction, and thus serve a purpose in that way ..



In pointing we try to emphasize that in fact that thoughts are merely masking and distracting, those who choose to see and free themselves from, the thought construct of an "I or self"...ultimately living in the present, and ending identifacation to a nonexistent Being called a Self...

The body and mind, are the "life support" for the "life force" within...There is no additional self that is contained within... A single awareness that's all...

I have been thinking a bit about this .. Just to be clear .. What I meant was that we can't know what is behind this "single awareness" .. it could be a self, it could be a not-self, it could be something, it could be nothing .. we can't know "what" it is (and thus we call it "empty"), because whatever it is, it is what we are .. it is our true identity, in the same way that it is the identity of everything. This "single awareness" appears to me to happen automatically, it is not controlled by "me", it happens by itself, and is necessarily the same kind of "activity" (or "life force") of the universe that makes the clouds pass through the sky, and that makes the thoughts pass through the mind.

By "self" I meant this unknowable reality behind the "single awareness", not the "me" construct in the mind .. I think even if we can't know what it is, at least we know that it is "real" ..

[Cam-RT]

The general concensus here is your not quite finished yet, Stian ...

Maybe this is why you haven't experienced the full per se "effect" or the anti-climactic finish as you mentioned earlier...

It appears that you're "At" the Gate...you've caught a glimpse and you understand the process, but you have yet to fully let go of "The Self" or as they say taken the "Leap" through The Gate... Or I like to say...Down the rabbit hole...(How far down does it go??)----> "Who cares?" Take the Leap...

I hope that last part didn't loose you...it's really not "cryptic" at all...

This is important so Please pay attention to this part...

Remember at the beginning of this process I told you to look "straight through and behind" each of these thoughts that creates these physical connections with "The Self"? ....The question is, how far did you go???...How far did you look??

Okay now here's the best part...Imagine your sitting at the edge of a large "dark" hole...you don't know how far the bottom is ( if there's any) yet you're contemplating or even questioning what's at the bottom...That's what "we" are doing right now is questioning what's there...

I'll tell you this... Even give you a clue..." I am here...everyone that's Enlightened/liberated and the has "seen the truth" and taken that leap into the "Nothing" or this dark pit that I described, has passed through "The Gate".

There's "nothing" to fear... Take the Leap!! Take some time and work on this, use the process we have practiced and "Go into it!" ... I promise if you do it right YOU WILL SEE...

Also remember to go outside and take some walks as you work through this it really helps with the work...

And please, let me know how it go's.. You're right at the gate....Take Care..Cam-RT.

[stikik]

Ok .. makes sense ..

look "straight through and behind" each of these thoughts that creates these physical connections with "The Self"

I am not sure I understand exactly what this means .. What am I supposed to look at? The thought itself? The reason (behind) the though? The purpose of the thought? The "medium" that the thought appears in? ..

What does it mean to look "straight through and behind" a thought?

The thoughts just appear and disappear .. How do I go/look "through" them? They do not appear to have any dimensions .. what does "behind" the thought mean?

Will try this over the weekend.

Cheers :)

[Cam-RT]

Hey, Stian..

You made plenty of references of being curious about needing to know about the "the real me..." or the other comment was "the self cannot see it self"...

What my prior response mainly was referencing is to "completely" let go of the " The Self " , me or " I " and like I said Leap into the "Nothing" and immerse your self into what's left....It's a process where " Nothing " of Stian, your body, your mind, is left...EVERYTHING is gone...just the feeling of "Am-ness" Is left...

That's where dieing before you die happens....

When your done let us know what you find....

There''s nothing to fear....Take Care, Cam-RT.

[stikik]

Hm .. yes, so I made this experiment tonight ..

I was sitting and imagining a sort of simulation of dying .. The body is fading, dropping away .. I am leaving everything behind .. the thoughts .. the world, the feelings .. everything is over, meaningless now, and dropping away .. I remember thinking about my mother, and about how much I love her ..
I got to the "stage" where I can sort of see the open field of "nothing" or open, spacious, light / nothingness in front of me .. I find it is quite easy to get to this stage ..

I remember sort of lulling myself, comforting myself, thinking "it's just ... it's just ... it's just ..." (?) Then came some thoughts about how unsatisfying my life really is .. I remember thinking the phrase: "Only death can satisfy me" .. and I must have slipped into it at that point .. I suddenly became aware that I had become this spacious light/nothingness that normally sits "in front of me" .. (or that this "nothing" was all there was, is perhaps more correct) With this realization, I snapped back out of it, very surprised .. I laughed, and felt much, much better :) I think it only lasted a second or so, although I suppose it could have been many minutes for all I know .. Immediately after this I wanted to go back into the "nothingness", but found I was too distracted by thoughts and sensations, and anyway I thought it would be good to wait and get some perspective first .. Immediately after this, I noticed the feeling of the "nothingness" still in my body somehow .. It sort of felt like it is there always, only I had not noticed it properly before .. This feeling faded after a bit ..

I felt really, really good the whole night through after that.

I got the feeling of "coming home" after a wild excursion .. as if this is where I belong, and all the other stuff in life is .. experimental distractions, and make-believe or something ..

I think this is very promising, and I am very happy about this .. although I think I will need to revisit this non-state again and again to really get comfortable with it, and to actually live there maybe :D

Technically, this would be a form of samadhi I guess? So .. am I getting it right?

I am not quite sure how it was done .. I guess I will try again tomorrow and see if I can replicate the effect :)

Thanks again Cam-RT, for your support and patience :)

[stikik]

So .. went to the park today and sat on a bench .. lovely weather, and lovely people all around :) Tried out this technique again .. letting go, forgetting everything, approaching the "nothing", and sort of easing into it .. In a strange way, it sort of felt like going to sleep, except I was not sleepy, relaxed, but very attentive .. There seems to be a kind of "trick" to the complete letting go, in the same way that one goes to sleep at night, in that I can't make it happen by trying to do it, but rather by relaxing and letting it happen .. The difference is that the attention is kept, even though one lets oneself go ..

I kept hovering on the edge of the "nothing", and getting several small instances of identifying completely with it, of disappearing into the "nothing" .. At first it was just a little bit scary, but I soon got more used to it .. I found it incredibly relaxing and liberating .. all the tension was gone .. all identification with my life was gone .. A couple of times, there were deep, purple-colored auras appearing .. This is very unusual for me .. I sometimes see pulsating blues and greens, sometimes pink, in meditation, but I have never seen these dark violet-purple colors before ..

I had brought some books, and was planning to read, but that just seemed like a waste of time ..

I had a completely lovely day .. met a friend, had dinner and a lovely time .. very interesting, as new possibilities seemed to present themselves very quickly today ..

I can still feel this "nothing" in my body .. I guess it can be described as a new, very deep trusting-feeling .. The "outside" world seems less "real", and at the same time, I feel much more sensitive, open and connected with it ..

I remember a line Ram Das quoted from one of his gurus I guess: "Dying is completely safe" :)

Wow! .. This has really opened up a whole new world for me here .. it's completely wonderful :) .. It will be interesting to see how I fare when the everyday grind starts again tomorrow ..

Although - I do not really feel that there is no "me", except in those moments when the "nothing" is all that exists .. I guess the "me" concept does feel a bit more .. virtual now .. Perhaps I need - like you said, Cam-RT, to go back over the thoughts and experiences of the day and let everything sort of dissolve into the "nothing" again and again for this to really happen .. (?)

The way I see it - even though I can see, and also completely identify with this "nothing", that does not really tell me that my sense of self is an illusion, although I do seem to take it much easier and not to .. grasp so much .. I don't really feel so desperate anymore ..

Hope I am on the right track here .. Input appreciated :)

[Cam-RT]

Yes, I am glad to see that you're making progress Stian...

I kept hovering on the edge of the "nothing", and getting several small instances of identifying completely with it, of disappearing into the "nothing" .. At first it was just a little bit scary, but I soon got more used to it .. I found it incredibly relaxing and liberating .. all the tension was gone .. all identification with my life was gone .

Now, that's what we're looking for!!!... Excellent.

Cutting away all the layers, sort of like an onion, until there's "nothing" left...

Losing all identification and connection, to what you "used to" identify with as ""Stian"...

Without the awareness and life force that is within your body (in essence) there is "nothing"...

And you reached a bonus in your search, the "nothingness" you speak of, is what we call the "Sweet Spot or Void" this can come and go, some can achieve this at will, but others say it comes with work...

Get in touch with this and learn from it...

So what is it, that we have learned about the "point of death" or what happens when we let go??

[stikik]

So what is it, that we have learned about the "point of death" or what happens when we let go??

The feeling of slipping into the void reminds me of the experience I mentioned in the beginning of this thread. That time, I was at a quite desperate point in my life, and I remember my intellect (thoughts) were racing one night in order to "find the truth" .. of course it was obvious that any thought that popped up as a proposition for "the truth" about life, the universe and everything, could not possibly be true (they were all just perspectives, mainly from a first person-perspective). After a while, I became more and more impatient, I was desperate, focusing hard, determined to get to the bottom of the understanding of life, showing no mercy to any sign of not-truth in any thought, and I started to see that the thoughts were made up of different "tendencies" within the mind - that is, I could sense a kind of "movement" towards some notion in the mind before the actual thought formulated itself .. So I started to cut short these "movements" also, since it was perfectly clear that they were all sort of "leaning" in a polarized direction, and therefore must be at best partial-truth ..

Well, after doing this for hours, I was completely exhausted, and decided to let it go and try again the next day .. It was at this point that strange things started to happen .. There were strange lights flashing in my visual field .. I could feel sparks flying up my spine, exploding in the stomach, and a feeling as of flames licking up over my skin .. There was a sense of disappearing - this is the very same feeling I get now from "entering the void" .. I was really scared. I did not know what was happening, and thought I might be going mad ..

The next day, I was surprised to learn that for some reason I was thinking very new and unusual thoughts for me. These thoughts seemed to come from nowhere in particular. It dawned on me that there was nothing to fear in life, and that nobody actually knew what was "right" and what was "wrong". We are all going to die eventually, and nobody really knows anything. Nothing can go wrong. There is nothing to fear. This is it.

The next two nights, the same "disappearing" phenomena happened, along with some sparks in the spine and explosions in the stomach. By this time, I had contacted a person who luckily advised me to have no fear, and let the process go along, and so I did.

After these three nights of this, came a week of living completely in the perfect, beautiful moment that is life. Eventually I was engaged in a political discussion, and I believe this was what brought me out again .. I started to care again - to become personally invested in the outcome of things (for instance of a discussion) ..

I remember sensing differently during that week. I squeezed an object in my hand, and it felt extremely intimate and close to me, but at the same time very, very far away (in that it was merely a surface-tension phenomena impinging on the nerves in the fingers, and registering in the brain). I realized that I could never, ever know what this object "truly was" .. This was as close as I could get to it, and it was very, very far away ..
My taste in music had suddenly changed. All I could listen to was classical. Everything else just seemed .. vulgar and gross .. Reading was suddenly also not very interesting, especially not esoteric/occult subjects which had been a favorite before ..

It seemed to me that I had sort of retreated to a third-person-perspective. I was enjoying tremendously the interaction going on between "me" - the ego/person and the world from another point of view. I knew that even if something "bad" was to happen - for instance a great pain, this would also be sort of enjoyable for me (!), since I was focused on the goings on between the person and the world, not what the person actually experienced ..

There were many other strange and unusual thing happening. People I knew were reacting differently to me, giving me puzzled looks. At one point I sat down in a cafe, and suddenly realized that a whole crowd had gradually formed around me, paying attention to me. This never, ever happened before ..

Well .. I have told many people about this experience, but nobody seems to know what it was .. Needless to say, there is nothing I want more than to get back into this state, and to stay there, but it seems almost impossible, as the desire to get it back, seems to be the very thing that keeps me out of it ..

Luckily, I now feel that I am on in touch with the same thing again .. and this time, I will make sure I don't fall back into identification with the personality/ego again :) ..

I am revisiting the void as often as possible now. However, I quickly get carried away when "drama" happens .. Huff .. I wish there was a quick-fix, but I guess it's going to take a lot of work after all ..