The Gate

The only Thing I find is emptiness. there is simply and only emptiness. Everything arises from this emptiness. Be it pleasure seeking, things to do, fear, etc. Everything Comes out of emptiness.

there is simply and only emptiness. Everything arises from this emptiness.

What does "emptiness' refer to? How is it known?

What does "emptiness' refer to?

Emptiness refers to the ground of being. It seems to be the basis of all experiences, forms and possibilities. Everything arises from this emptiness. Happiness, sorrow, etc. can be found in identification. Identification seems to arise from this emptiness. All what is seen and experienced seems to be connected by this emptiness.

How is it known?

It is known by being present. By being mindful of walking, feeling, etc. It is known by sitting in meditation and letting thoughts pass by without attaching to them.

Emptiness refers to the ground of being. It seems to be the basis of all experiences, forms and possibilities. Everything arises from this emptiness. Happiness, sorrow, etc. can be found in identification. Identification seems to arise from this emptiness. All what is seen and experienced seems to be connected by this emptiness.

I don't know if emptiness is the ground of being. The view here is that consciousness is the ground or basis of all experience. I practiced Zen as both a monastic, and a layperson, for many years, over twenty years, and in the end, left because of one undeniable factor that permeated all experience, either on or off the mat - that any experience, or lack of experience was known. That a knowing permeated everything. Both known and unknown are always recognized. I know when I know, I know when I don't know. For memory to function, the experience had to be known. This includes knowing that when I sleep deeply, that nothing is present.

I find emptiness teachings useful from the standpoint of not getting stuck in a particular view.

With regards to a separate self, I only find thoughts as the basis for the view. Going deeper, I know all thoughts, and I know that they are ephemeral and change like the weather. So I cannot be a thought. Going even deeper, I see that all thoughts are known, all experiences - known, all forms - known, every factor that I can speak of is - known. And this knowing can never be separated from the experience. To know, is to experience.

Further, all experience is only known presently, in this moment, now. And anything outside of now that can be talked about is a concept that is known now - in this present moment. Past, present and future is only now. now. now.

And for the life of me, beyond this present moment being known now, I can never experience anything, or know anything. This, whatever it is, includes the seamless unending experience of now. Not a single thread is separate from this present knowing. Wherever I look, I am there. As this knowing.

I can't find a self, a mind, anything that endures, beyond this knowing, knowing only itself. There may be more. Who knows?

It is known by sitting in meditation and letting thoughts pass by without attaching to them.

Who is letting thoughts pass by without attaching to them?

The view here is that consciousness is the ground or basis of all experience.
...That a knowing permeated everything. Both known and unknown are always recognized. I know when I know, I know when I don't know.
... Not a single thread is separate from this present knowing. Wherever I look, I am there. As this knowing.

That is beautiful!
Another way of describing emptiness is the analogy of the ocean and the wave. The basis of all seems to be an ocean out of which waves (experiences, feelings, etc.) arise and disappear. There is only this moment in which pleasure, thoughts, fear, etc. arise as waves and in the next moment disappear in the ocean. This seems to be similar to what you describe as "a knowing permeated everything"

With regards to a separate self, I only find thoughts as the basis for the view. Going deeper, I know all thoughts, and I know that they are ephemeral and change like the weather. So I cannot be a thought. Going even deeper, I see that all thoughts are known, all experiences - known, all forms - known, every factor that I can speak of is - known. And this knowing can never be separated from the experience. To know, is to experience.

Further, all experience is only known presently, in this moment, now. And anything outside of now that can be talked about is a concept that is known now - in this present moment. Past, present and future is only now. now. now.

Beautiful again. Just recently the idea that we are robots and we are just making the belief up that we are individuals with free will made total sense to me. Anything outside of the present moment just seems like fiction. How do we know that our memories true? They could just be made up or I don't know. It happened to me more than once that I wondered if this particular memory X was just a dream I experienced or happened in the "real" past life. Life is full of mysteries.

Thoughts as you say seem to be ephemeral. To me they also seem to be based on each other. Like saying, an initial thought is introduced and then be followed until satisfaction arises from being identified with the thought. Since satisfaction wears off a continuation of the initial thought is pursued until satisfaction is found again. Thoughts appear again and again during the day, new information is pursued again and again to continue endlessly with the thought mechanism. Every time the thought reoccurs satisfaction sets in although with diminishing returns which keeps the whole mechanism alive.
This whole mechanism seems me to be very similar with how addiction works in general.

Who is letting thoughts pass by without attaching to them?

It seems like the identification with the thought mechanism wears off. Satisfaction from the thought mechanism decreases and satisfaction from the peace of emptiness/the ocean increases. This is the picture as it seems to me right now. It is quite an exciting picture and I wonder what happens next!
I will contemplate on the permeating knowingness

Just recently the idea that we are robots and we are just making the belief up that we are individuals with free will made total sense to me

Can a controller\chooser\decider be found in your present experience?

Can a controller\chooser\decider be found in your present experience?

No,there is nobody to decide. Decisions are made based on how I grew up, on past experiences,... In general, decisions are made on the premise of attaining happiness and avoiding harm.

:)

Hi Georg. Please answer the following series of questions at your leisure. We call this set the Final Questions here at LU and they are given when the guide believes the the respondent has crashed the gateless gate.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How
does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

Just checking in to see if you are still engaged here Georg. Everything ok?

Hi Joseph,

I am very sorry for having not responded for so long. I had the feeling of making a break in order to digest all the changes I experienced. I also got in contact with James Swartz (wonderful Vedantic teacher) which distracted me from this site. Sorry again, I just realized that it's been over a month already since my last reply :(

Yes, everything is well. The urge to make a break in order to understand the changes was immanent and it feels good again now. :)

Well, getting to your questions.

1)

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

There is no separate entity. Separation is a farce. Separation in form of a separate "me" never existed. It's been a great misunderstanding to believe we're separate, that there is separation.

2)

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion of the separate self is like a big evolutionary joke. By believing to be separate from one another we have a bigger motivation to have offspring, do well in front of other people, etc. To be separate creates suffering because we have the feeling to be not complete. The mechanism of fulfilling our desires and avoiding our fears is believed to give us happiness, to make us complete again.
This starts at a very young age and is supported by our culture. We are made to believe to need to fulfill our desires and avoid our fears. This however makes no sense at all. Separation cannot be avoided by fulfilling our desires, etc. On the contrary this mechanism takes a life on its own to the point where our life is more robotic than anything else. Furthermore, separation becomes more prevalent by the fact that fulfilling desires only works for the moment and never lasts.

3)

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

It feels good. The urges to do things have diminished. Everything seems to be ok as it is. Desires and fears are not as dominant as they used to be. In general, it is much easier to enjoy life. There are far less urges. Everything is much more relaxed.
Before I started the dialogue I might have been much more driven by my desires and fears whereas now everything is good as it is.

4)

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

I honestly don't know. What is meant by "pushed you over", pushing over what? To see that we're all one? To see that there is no such thing as a "me"?
I would say it's been a gradual process.

5)

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

Well, I am not sure if I can give a clear response to this question.
Let's take the example of talking to a friend about somebody who gives me a hard time. I see that there is a desire to talk about it. Where does the desire come from? I want to make myself heard, want to make my position clear, want to be supported in the way I live my life etc. This is normal. I have always done it like that. So, there is no free will. I just do what I have always done in order to feel good, to feel whole again. So, this drive for fulfilling desires is root to how things evolve.
However, once I have realized the mechanism behind it, it's easy to look through all of that. All of a sudden there is a second possibility. I can refrain from talking about this. I just stop talking about it and look into myself. I can see that the other person who gives me a hard time is the same as me. Just pursuing a different approach of fulfilling her desires.
So, is there free will, choice and control? Not necessarily. If knowledge about the way things are is not existent then there is no control, no choice, etc. about pursuing life. If there is no knowledge I always pursue what I believe makes me happy and whole again.
So, in a way I am partially responsible. I am responsible in looking through this mechanism in order to be free of following the mechanism. But that is not necessarily a responsibility. However, once the knowledge is there, then there might be such a thing as being responsible of choosing the second possibility.

6)

6) Anything to add?

Well, I have certainly not finished the path yet. The one thing I have learned by the teachings of Vedanta is that a big part of enlightenment is triggered by knowledge. And I am far from understanding everything. Still a long way to go...

Hi Georg. Yes, I thought you had decided to not pursue this any further. Nice surprise to see you have returned and answered the confirmation questions.

Regarding Vedanta, I too know James Swartz. I've actually corresponded with him and attended retreat with him a few years ago. I consider Swami Paramarthananda my root guru though. To this present day I listen to his weekly lectures and review, revisit key lectures of his on various upanishads and Shankara's texts.

Basically I began this path through Buddhism and after 30 years graduated to Vedanta.

Anyhow, nice to see and hear from you.

Now on to your responses.

I have no further questions regarding your answers to questions 1 thru 4. Other guides may though, I have to submit your answers to my peers and there could be some follow-up question for clarification. But before I do, I have a couple of additional questions regarding your answers to 5 and 6.

In question 5 you wrote,

I am responsible in looking through this mechanism in order to be free of following the mechanism. But that is not necessarily a responsibility. However, once the knowledge is there, then there might be such a thing as being responsible of choosing the second possibility.

Where is this "I" that is responsible?

Is there a "you" creating/thinking thoughts?

How does choice work without a separate self?

In question 6 you wrote,

Well, I have certainly not finished the path yet. The one thing I have learned by the teachings of Vedanta is that a big part of enlightenment is triggered by knowledge. And I am far from understanding everything. Still a long way to go...

Without a self, who gets enlightened?

Who has a long way to go when it has been clearly seen that there is no self?


Remember, a self is maintained, or predicated by a series of thoughts that refer to one another as proof of a separate existence. It can never be found in direct experience of this moment now.

And... If you can know it, it is an object of your experience and therefore not you.

Joseph ♥︎

Hi Joseph,

thank you for your quick and very detailed reply!! Very much appreciated :)

Can I ask you if there was a particular reason to stop following James Swartz?

Where is this "I" that is responsible?
Is there a "you" creating/thinking thoughts?

You're right. There is no I to be responsible. The absolute Self is neither responsible nor does it create thoughts. Thoughts just appear out of nothing.

How does choice work without a separate self?

Choices appear by tendencies.
Tendencies appear by the subconcious mind.
The subconcious mind is influenced by the three gunas (sattvic, rajas, tamas).
The three gunas are influenced by how we live our life.
This means that our subconcious mind is influenced by what we eat, how we spend our time and what kind of knowledge we have.
So, to say we have choices is not correct. Choices appear to the concious mind and are interpreted as free will. However, choices are already been made by the subconcious mind. So, there is no real choice to make, neither is there free will, intention or decision-making.

Without a self, who gets enlightened?

Nobody gets enlightened (smile!). Just the identification with the body-mind slowly disappears and instead the identification with the Self/Awareness/etc becomes predominant.

Who has a long way to go when it has been clearly seen that there is no self?

Nobody has to go a long way (smile again!). That is just an excuse by the intellect(?) to stop inquiring. There is no long way or anything there is just the constant inquiry into the true self :)

Thanks so much for your time and questions, Joseph!!! They really help me looking through all of this!
And sorry again that I took such a long time off!!! But it really seemed necessary...

Can I ask you if there was a particular reason to stop following James Swartz?

Sure. James is wonderful. I just desired the detailed instruction that he received. Paramarthanandaji teaches the entire formal curriculum in English. He is also considered by many as the very best of Dayananda's disciples.

Choices appear by tendencies.
Tendencies appear by the subconcious mind.
The subconcious mind is influenced by the three gunas (sattvic, rajas, tamas).
The three gunas are influenced by how we live our life.
This means that our subconcious mind is influenced by what we eat, how we spend our time and what kind of knowledge we have.
So, to say we have choices is not correct. Choices appear to the concious mind and are interpreted as free will. However, choices are already been made by the subconcious mind. So, there is no real choice to make, neither is there free will, intention or decision-making.

This is all correct from a Vedanta perspective, at the relative level. It is a thorn to remove a thorn. Later, the advanced student is taught the Mandukya Upanishad with Gaudapada's Karika where one clearly sees that there is no mind, no world, not even an absolute Self. This isn't hearsay. It is our direct experience of the present moment now. All of these concepts are not real fundamentally. They are all mithya, not satyam. What remains is unspeakable because it is beyond all concepts. And every single word is a concept, every thought is a concept.

So returning to the simplicity of our present experience now, when a choice arises(which is still a thought), can it be said to belong to anything separate or finite?

Paramarthanandaji teaches the entire formal curriculum in English. He is also considered by many as the very best of Dayananda's disciples.

Oh, thank you. I was wondering where James got his knowledge from, now I got an idea. I haven't yet looked into the whole Swami world...

not even an absolute Self. This isn't hearsay. It is our direct experience of the present moment now. All of these concepts are not real fundamentally. They are all mithya, not satyam. What remains is unspeakable because it is beyond all concepts. And every single word is a concept, every thought is a concept.

Wonderful!!

So returning to the simplicity of our present experience now, when a choice arises(which is still a thought), can it be said to belong to anything separate or finite?

Hmmm, quite a difficult question!

1) It cannot be separate or finite because it all appears within limitless awareness. everything is limitless awareness, thus choice appears in limitless awareness. Thus, choice does not belong to anything separate.

2) Choice is just a word, a form. Without the word it is limitless awareness. So, from the point of view of the intellect it is separate and finite because it got a name. Without the name it is not separate. Thus, the intellect makes it separate. Essentialy it is as everything limitless awareness and thus cannot be finite or separate.

3) Well, more can be said, especially if we talk about the different states such as the dream state, etc. Choice is separate from the deep sleep state because it doesn't appear in it. The deep sleep state does not need choices nor does the state of absolute truth. However, once again if everything is limitless awareness it cannot be separate or finite. As a result nothing can be separate or finite.

Hmmm

choices are finite. They appear and disappear. I am there and choices pop up and disappear. They have no impact on my true self.
Here in the present experience choices are finite and have no impact on me.