Another guide please

[marka]

I will listen to the audio in the morning. I will do yoga in the morning also and follow the instruction. I'm going to bed soon.

My sense is that you are quite close to the end

not sure I share this ... I am able to follow instruction and tasks well! I am open to the possibility that there is no 'me' in reality and am investigating this.

I have experienced no real shift and am able to hold the focus of looking into thoughts for moments, not for prolonged periods of time as of yet.

Have I even really had an experience of no doer, no see er, no hearer ..... I think I have in the moment of it happening ..... but no 'realisation' around this. Like it doesn't automatically happen now. Is this doubts? or is it me with expectations? Something else?

[Armstrong]

You described "lost in thought" wonderfully - visuals, thinking of the future, desire, feelings, commentary, etc.

And in addition to that, there seems to be a judgment that there's a you that has too many thoughts. Is that a thought too? How do you know that thought is true? At the time when you have the thought along the lines of, "I have a problem with getting lost in thought" how many thoughts do you have? One at a time? Multiple? Aren't all the other thoughts long gone by then? Aren't they a memory? Why do you trust that thought?

.... and this whole thing together is such a compelling argument for an 'I', even though there isn't one. During these all consuming episodes of thought its like they subtly, so subtly, trick me into believing its being directed by 'I', by the me-ness! (or, in those moments, I forget to question, to challenge the I-ness).
And so therefore, by default, its like an 'I' exists ..... even though it doesn't when I take the time to really look.

Did you just figure this out since we began this dialog? Is this new information?

It sounds like you are saying there's a story about an "I", but you can't find it. If you believe the story, you'll act like the "I" is real, even though it isn't.

Yes, that's the illusion of self in a nutshell. Are you ready to proceed to the final questions? Or do you want to do a bunch of exercises?

If you want to do exercises, please do some yoga and let's talk about your direct experience of boundaries, separation, etc. -- all that stuff in the audio.

Also, I would suggest that you go through your day and try to pay attention to the thoughts and what they lead to. You'll be done quicker.

If you are feeling fear or have bodily complaints (stomach or headache) -- please listen to that fear audio and let's talk about it.

OK - the ball is in your court. Please let me know how you want to do this.

[marka]

there seems to be a judgment that there's a you that has too many thoughts

That's really helpful .... allowed me to relax .... I think this was perhaps a bit more recognition that thoughts are not me, there is no me.

Did you just figure this out since we began this dialog? Is this new information?

Yes. Had a thought experience that I realised I was consumed by. Broke it up from there.

If you want to do exercises, please do some yoga and let's talk about your direct experience of boundaries, separation, etc.

Did yoga. The sensations were amazingly helpful. They just happen. No 'I' directs them. There is no separation as there is no me in that experience; it is literally direct experience - consciousness then sensation. Nothing in between.
I am allowing that experience to transfer across to the other senses and applying the same logic. Even managed a deeper recognition of the internal voice - it just happens, comes out of no where.

If you are feeling fear

Listened to the audio. Discovered for myself that the fear has an intention to protect and that it wants to protect me from the truth - as it (fear) would be redundant if the truth were revealed.
Reasoned a couple of things: in reality, truth, there may be times when fear is needed, so not entirely redundant. Also, there is no need to protect me from truth as there is no 'me' to protect.
I did this after listening to the first instructions so encouraging that the audio then went on to state these points.

Fear itself .... what do I fear if total dis-identification from self occurs?:
that I won't enjoy life, that it will seem all black and white, that it won't seem real! And that there may be a sense of futility.
However, also some positive came out of this:
life will flow and be much more smooth, a deep relaxing into that flow - there is nothing for me to control, also, that it's ok to have thoughts, feelings and sensations - that this is life itself being expressed, just not directed by an 'I'!

Also, I would suggest that you go through your day and try to pay attention to the thoughts and what they lead to.

Ok. Initially I have noticed that thoughts seem to lead to nothing, to more thought, to feelings, sensations.
I will keep paying attention.

[Armstrong]

Sounds like you've done some honest looking!

How are you feeling having noticed this stuff?

I need to read your reply carefully and try to see what to do next, so please give me another day.

In the meanwhile, I encourage you to keep looking as you go through your day and discover what you can.

[marka]

How are you feeling having noticed this stuff?

Initially, quite elevated and laughing a lot at my thoughts. Content and cheerful.

Still quite happy now, some hours later. Not sure what else I need to do but does not seem like I'm done, like I'm not 100% in presence, in no 'I' world. I note thoughts creep in - the language ones - that refer to 'I'. I noticed one earlier and had to laugh; that's how it's kept going, the illusion!

Maybe just needs some more time, it seems to be different each day. But I certainly am not about to fake it, which I would be doing if I said 'I'm done' at this time.

[marka]

I think what I'm saying is that the glue is breaking up, if not completely dissolved yet!

[Armstrong]

OK. You seem energized by your looking. That's great! You've made huge steps very quickly.

Let's go step by step. I hope that puts you at ease.

Can you please look here: http://liberationunleashed.com/audio/

Then please start with #2: http://liberationunleashed.com/LU_Audio ... n%2002.mp3
You already did #3 and #4, so next up would be #5.

How about you do them and report back. I suggest you try to find examples of that stuff in "real life" as opposed to just exercises. It is a bit like learning good posture: the point isn't to just have good posture in your Alexander Technique or yoga class; the point is to always have good posture.

[marka]

Thank you, I will continue with the audio, #2.

I will report back when I've had a chance to ponder it.

[Armstrong]

OK. I will listen to it to so that it is fresh in my mind.

[marka]

Exectations

1 - I do expect to feel different. To feel bliss.

This is compounded by the fact that I did have an amazing experience a couple years back - my heart opened and out poured pure unconditional love. It was intense, incredible, amazing - a thousand times 'better' than anything I had ever experienced before. Nothing mattered. Everything was fascinating, consuming, delightful. There was not a problem or a care in the world. I had time and compassion and a deep love for everyone, everything.

I expect to feel, not like that necessarily, but different, peaceful, blissful.

Lots of Gurus and past masters speak of this joy, this bliss. It's what I've been expecting from any form of realisation.

2 - As to what it will be like, well, I have been expecting a transformed experience of living - no pain, no suffering and all my troubles gone. Also, a much'truer' view of reality and an intuitive 'knowing' of how to proceed.

3 - The above simply suggest what I want it to be like. What, I see now, I have fantasized it will be like (although I really believed the 'bliss' was true, a dead cert!)

Even now, there is still a part of me that stubbornly believes it.

4 - I really do believe that I will be cruising through life, imparting wisdom, with not a worry in sight.

Letting go

Hmm. I notice that these beliefs are tied up in a 'romantic' view of liberation. Yet, that doesn't mean I will find it easy to just drop these beliefs.

There really is a part of me that believes I will be vastly different!

And, how easy is it going to be to completely drop all my previous read/heard beliefs? I'm not sure! I really like the idea of approaching this from a place of not knowing, but doing that in action is different - difficult.

Also

(from audio) .... look closely at the most precious beliefs, those closest to the heart ......

Some are definitely what I started writing right at the beginning of this forum - it's about love and a benevolent God .... that God is love and that we are love, once we realise ourselves!

There may be more, I am not sure.

Oh, wait. Here's some more:

that I will have immense power, have an enhanced understanding of reality, be 'superior' to others, be 'super human'.

[Armstrong]

OK - thanks for being so honest.

So where did those expectations come from? Did you make them up? Or did you read about them in books? Given that they are thoughts, do you have any reason to expect that reality will conform to them and you'll look at your experience and think, "Yep. I nailed it! I knew it was going to be like this..."?

Here's one problem with having such expectations - you may wind up having thoughts like, "Am I there yet? Oh no, I'm not full of joy and equanimity. This stuff isn't working. I am broken... and you'll feel bad. It is similar to the phenomenon we discussed: you can imagine that you've got a problem with X (in this case "not enough joy"). But what you've really got is a problem with reality - until you decide to stop comparing reality against some arbitrary ideal.

What is it like in direct experience to believe something? And can you find the "I" or the "believer" (in your direct experience) that believes that belief?

You can just start with something like the proposition, "I will live to see the sun will rise tomorrow." What is it like to have that belief? Is it just a thought followed by a feeling of certainty? Is the thought necessarily "yours"? Is the feeling necessarily "yours"? Or are they just thoughts and feelings? And can you find the "I" that believes it? Can you find the "I" that is going to live to see the sun rise?

Finally, I recommend you try to look at your expectations as expectations - and just that. The fact that "you" know them doesn't mean they are true. You'll find out what happens if you keep looking. If you keep looking but then checking to see if reality measures up to your expectations, it may make it harder for you to look and see clearly, because your preconceptions will distort what you see.

[marka]

So where did those expectations come from?

Some were read about, some were heard, some were created, added to, with what 'I' thought 'I' knew.

Given that they are thoughts, do you have any reason to expect that reality will conform to them

I find myself acknowledging: 'Isn't it amazing what is assumed to be true, without question?' Of course there is no reason for reality to be like that - they are just thoughts and may not relate to what is actually 'real' at all!

But what you've really got is a problem with reality - until you decide to stop comparing reality against some arbitrary ideal.

My expectations are just arbitrary ideals based on, in the main, other people's thoughts about what realisation is like - what seeing the truth is like.

They are not based on my actual direct experience! This is very helpful - to stop comparing reality against some arbitrary ideal - reality just is, as it is, as 'I' discover it day by day, moment by moment.

It may take a while for this to really drop away - I have a slight doubt as to whether I am truly able to make the decision to stop comparing to the ideal. Oh wait. That's not true - I have made the decision, its not about that, it's about how easy or difficult it is to let the habit of comparing reality to an ideal to fall away.

And that in itself is really interesting. Prior to this, I had assumed that things like that were about me - about how much I could trust myself to do them (i.e. the deciding not to compare) ..... now I realise that its never been an issue of trust but of habits and patterns.

What is it like in direct experience to believe something? And can you find the "I" or the "believer" (in your direct experience) that believes that belief?

You can just start with something like the proposition, "I will live to see the sun will rise tomorrow.

In direct experience this is just thoughts and feelings. It happened like this: imagining tomorrow morning and 'me' being there. There were auditory comments (more thoughts) and a sense of 'knowing it to be true', a feeling. That is it.

They are just thoughts and feelings, no 'I', no 'yours' involved. I cannot find the 'I' that is going to live to see the sun rise.

.... yet .... yet .... there is still this strange sense of an 'I' - somewhere. I can't find it when I look at individual phenomenon. Thoughts, feelings, sensations. But there is still this insidious belief that 'I' is in control, that it exists.

Also, I am not sure that I get the link, the logic, between a couple of your paragraphs (i.e. problems with expectations followed by direct experience, belief)? It may just be that I'm missing something obvious, can you explain please?

Finally, I recommend you try to look at your expectations as expectations - and just that. The fact that "you" know them doesn't mean they are true. You'll find out what happens if you keep looking.

Expectations are expectations, yes. When you say 'if you keep looking', you mean in general, keep following the process? Keep attempting to 'see' ? Or is this specifically related to looking at expectations?

If you keep looking but then checking to see if reality measures up to your expectations, it may make it harder for you to look and see clearly, because your preconceptions will distort what you see.

Hmm. I really hope I don't do this. I find expectations difficult to spot sometimes, because they are so subtle. Like I'm not even aware there was an expectation being held! So that's my fear regarding expectations - that they will sneak in.

They may not, I may have understood and absorbed enough for it to be seen as it is. How will I know? I ask myself!

[Armstrong]

OK, I'm sorry if I wasn't clear. If there's stuff that I wrote that wasn't clear, and you want to understand it, please quote it and I'll try to explain.

I'll try again: one of the problems with expectations is that if you expect seeing through the illusion of self to change your reality in a certain way, it may not be that way and you'll be lost in thought trying to figure out what went wrong. There won't be anything wrong except you presuming that something is wrong and looking for it until you call off the search.

I don't think you can be rid of expectations.

The advice is to try to be aware of them as a pattern of thinking and feeling. They key is to avoid taking that pattern and thinking the thought says something important about reality. To clarify my use of the word "know" - you "know" your expectations in the sense that you know that you've had the thought and the feeling of certainty. All you know is that you've had the thought.

If you can see your thoughts as thoughts, and nothing more than that, you'll be able to see through your expectations (and thoughts) and not get tricked by them.

I would think you should try the next audio and do the exercises.

Another quick one: when you walk around or do yoga, what is your experience of the body? Are you aware of the body as a object? Can you sense your body's outline? Please describe what it is like to have a body as you do different tasks - reading this, walking to get some water, drinking water, etc -- paying particular experience to your bodily sensations. Finally, in direct experience, do you know you have a body? Please describe your direct experience of your body.

[marka]

one of the problems with expectations is that if you expect seeing through the illusion of self to change your reality in a certain way, it may not be that way and you'll be lost in thought trying to figure out what went wrong. There won't be anything wrong except you presuming that something is wrong and looking for it until you call off the search.

thanks for this. It makes perfect sense now. Actually, I don't think I will have a problem with expectations.

[Armstrong]

OK. So you've looked at expectations in terms of direct experience: thoughts and feelings about reality. That's very good. If you notice your expectations and view them that way, you won't get duped.

As much as possible, as you go through your day, can you try to look at your body in terms of direct experience? E.g. your body doing yoga, walking, reading this message on the computer, etc.

The point is that there's seeing, hearing, touch, taste, smell -- and thinking. Please try to notice how crucial thinking is to making sense of all of this, including whether or not we "have" bodies.

E.g. I'm typing this on my computer. I hear the clicking of the keys. I'm hearing EQ #4 (direct experience), there's a visual field, and in it there's a thing that thought tells me is a computer screen. My fingers are moving, keys clicking and letters are filling up the visual field. I notice the pressure of my left forearm on my calf and think, "I've got my legs crossed and I'm hunched a bit. That's bad posture." I look for an 'I' that is doing all of this and can't find it.

When I walk, there's alternating pressure sensations. I think "that's my feet touching the ground". Upon reflection, there's nothing particularly "mine" about the sensations.

So let's look at the body. You might think you've got a body you control like a puppet or action figure. It is important that you learn - in your bones - that in DE, you only know you've got a body because of the patterns of sensations and thoughts that make sense of that.

Does this make sense? It would help if you could do some daily activities and then put this stuff into words, and say how it feels to notice this stuff. Then I'll know that it makes sense to start looking further.