The Gate

I am now in Netherlands, but in a week I go to Bali again where I live.

Ok we take a little break.
It is not unusual by the way what you are experiencing.

Warm regards, Petrus


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Hi Petrus,

I just wanted to let you know where i am at. I know that the Charlie that i had created was just an illusion. The sense of Charlie pops up now and again but i quickly see that it is an illusion and it falls away.

Regards,

Charlie.

Hi Charlie,

Good to hear from you!

What you tell about yourself seems very true to me.

What about:
"my body is kind of buzzing and that my mind is sort of buzzing too and making me feel un-grounded, anxious and not good. " ?

Is there still buzzing and feeling un-grounded and anxious?

Warm regards, Petrus



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Hi Petrus,

What about:
"my body is kind of buzzing and that my mind is sort of buzzing too and making me feel un-grounded, anxious and not good. " ?

Is there still buzzing and feeling un-grounded and anxious?

I do still get this now and again, and anxiety comes up fairly regularly but i just notice it, engage with it fully and without mental processing or working it all out it falls away. There is usually an involuntary deep breath that comes and i find my undirected awareness comes to my whole body cavity in which the breath is experienced and the anxiety and buzzing either passes, or lessens or stays the same and that is okay. Its really hard to put into words but its as though when i experience it all without words or working it all out its all okay. Like the awareness and letting go means its all okay.

I do find i i am experiencing what feels like more space within me and without and there is no need to work it out its just all okay as it is.

My word for the last few weeks and today is- expansion or expansiveness.

Regards,

Charles.

Hi Charlie,

I think you made much progress.

Let us get to the key question:
Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere?

Warm regards, Petrus

Hi Petrus,

Apologies for taking so long to reply Petrus.

Let us get to the key question:
Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere?

That question is a hard one to answer and to answer honestly. You see when i started on L.U i was off work for various reasons and able to spend most of the day alone and in silence. At that time i could have answered 'no', but being back at work with huge staff and team issues and the speed of the hospital i work in i would have to answer- 'yes sometimes'.

You see, when things get really fast, loud, pressured and intense at work i find the 'I' the 'Charles' gets into the driving seat and drives off into the distance. Only when i leave (things slow down and i catch 'myself') and do my hour commute, do i see what happened, recognise what happened and then the 'I' and the sence of a 'Charles' is seen for what it is and it begins to drop away.

Put simply- in times of intensity at work the 'I' creeps in but in quiet times the 'I' is seen for what it is and does not happen.

Regards,

Charles.

Hi Charles,

when things get really fast, loud, pressured and intense at work i find the 'I' the 'Charles' gets into the driving seat

Maybe it looks like that, but a close look again and you see in reality there is no Charlie.
If there is no Charles he also cannot get in the driver seat.

Is there a driver seat really?


I think you are ready for the next round. Or are there some more issues you like to address?

I would like to continue with the 6 questions we ask at the end, when it seems clear you have seen through the illusion of the separate self.
If you have answered those, I will show your answers to the other guides to see if they have any additional questions. If they have, I will give them to you to answer. After that you will be invited to our 'post-gate' Facebook groups, where you could explore and discuss more if you like.

The Gate is not the end, but a start. There is a whole community of others on Liberation Unleashed (on Facebook and on the forum), who have also seen through the idea of a separate self. Actually, there are several groups to join.

Warm regards, Petrus

Hi Petrus,

Maybe it looks like that, but a close look again and you see in reality there is no Charlie.
If there is no Charles he also cannot get in the driver seat.

Is there a driver seat really?

There is no 'seat' and i can see that even when my brain is working at full speed under intense conditions at work and there feels like an 'I' in those moment- the reality is there is no Charles. There is no 'I' there is just intensity and the illusion briefly of a Charles.

I think you are ready for the next round. Or are there some more issues you like to address?

No- i feel it is time to move forward too Petrus.

I would like to continue with the 6 questions we ask at the end, when it seems clear you have seen through the illusion of the separate self.
If you have answered those, I will show your answers to the other guides to see if they have any additional questions. If they have, I will give them to you to answer. After that you will be invited to our 'post-gate' Facebook groups, where you could explore and discuss more if you like.

That feels very exciting Petrus- yes lets do it!

Regards,

Charles.

Hi Charlie,

No- i feel it is time to move forward too Petrus.

Ok, here are the questions:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?


Warm regards, Petrus

Hi Petrus,

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

I know there is no separate entity and some kind of Charles located in me somewhere. I know there never was a Charles located somewhere in me.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion of a separate self and the Charlie that i thought existed in me- i thought was sort of the size of a small nut and would be real if you one day cut me open and pulled it out. I realised about 18 months ago, after a long search, that that was not the case. I realised that my D.N.A (nature) was partially responsible for my decisions to do one thing rather than another, and that my upbringing (nurture) was also partially responsible for my decisions to do one thing rather than another.

Your question of ‘when does it start’, I would answer by saying that it started from day one. All the people in my life, especially mum and dad behaved as though THEY had a fixed and separate self. So as i grew and learned from them how to be a ‘person, my own illusion of a fixed self and identify as ‘Charles’ grew. I watched everyone else do it and i followed them into the illusion.

3) How does it feel to see this?

I feel relieved i am finally out of the illusion and i also i feel sad that i have lived in an illusion for so long. I also sometimes feel fear. Fear of the space and silence i am aware of. I also feel amazed that i have spent so long living a kind of lie and living in a kind of blindness. The main thing that is very present is a sense of huge space and silence. This frightened me a few weeks back but now i have lived with it for a while I’m settling into a new space and it feels neither good nor bad. Overall i feel a kind of ‘balance’ and my entire system feels more settled, grounded and silent.

What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?

Well i sort of knew this was coming for the last 18 months. The main difference is that i have let go of the belief that there is a fixed self in me. Seeing and meeting other people that are still in their own illusions of 'self' can be frustrating at times. Its like watching an actor that doesn't know he/ she is acting or that the part he/she is portraying isn't real.

Please report from the past few days.

From the moment i read these 6 questions a few days ago i had a silent boom. It was a paradox, as there was no sound but something opened up and deepened immensely. It’s really hard to describe but there’s been mostly a huge sense of space and silence and not much happening. There feels like a continuing sense of deepening, opening and space at the moment.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

Well i had felt ‘pushed around’ for many years in myself by my emotions resulting from thinking and living as though there were a self that i were trying to ‘please’ and ‘get somewhere’. I had felt like a mouse on a wheel, going around and around, resulting from ‘trying’ to get this ‘Charlie,’ this ‘i’ to someplace or somewhere.

Something had felt like a lie for the last 18 months or so and i wanted to get to the bottom of it. It has been the most real, the scariest but the most honest journey i have ever undertaken.

5) Describe decision,

I know that when i decide to go and get food the hunger feeling appears and due to a predisposition to get this food or that food- it results in a decision- but i am not really sure i ever decide. I think it just happens based on my DNA (nature) and my upbringing (nurture).

Intention,

I have the intention to not kill so i do not. I am sure that if my DNA (nature) and my upbringing (nurture) had been another way then i might have killed, even if my daily intention had been to not kill. This line of thinking has made me question the intention, choice, control of sex offenders and violent offenders- all of which i work with daily in my job.

Free will, choice and control. What makes things happen?

I feel that my free will is determined by my DNA and upbringing (nature/ nurture) so at the moment if feels that whatever i do is determined by those factors and i am not sure if i really have any free will, choice and control- i admit that questioning this is completely blowing my mind!

How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

I am responsible for not killing and raping but this is a total head fuck as i know i never would do those things so have i really actually decided attal? Had i been slightly different or predisposed in some way to do those things, would i not do them? And then who is responsible if i were predisposed??!! This line of thought also blows my hair back. The offenders i work with are convicted and imprisoned due to our societies laws but what if they were always predisposed to commit the crimes that they did? And if their choices are more about their DNA and upbringing (nature/ nurture) did they ever get to decide???

6) Anything to add?

To be honest Petrus every day i feel more space and opening up and questioning of all i have ever ‘known’ and what i ‘think’ about things now and what i ‘think’ ‘i know’. As i sit here in silence for a moment there is a huge sense of space and the quiet whirr from the fan in my computer... and that’s okay.

Warm regards,

Charles.

Hi Charlie,

I know there is no separate entity and some kind of Charles located in me somewhere.

I am wondering: why do you add "in me somewhere"? What or who is this me?

I realised that my D.N.A (nature) was partially responsible for my decisions to do one thing rather than another, and that my upbringing (nurture) was also partially responsible for my decisions to do one thing rather than another.

You say: my DNA and my upbringing. If there is no Charley, whos is it?

Furthermore DNA and upbringing are concepts that belong in the realm of thoughts and science.
So better to say: scienctifically speaking there are theories that....
But wouldnt it be better, dont say it at all and a simply "I dont know" will do much better?

There feels like a continuing sense of deepening, opening and space at the moment.

Wow...great.

The offenders i work with are convicted and imprisoned due to our societies laws but what if they were always predisposed to commit the crimes that they did?

These are questions hard to answer. I simply think societies have to protect themselves. But that is thinking only and you can take many positions in this...

And if their choices are more about their DNA and upbringing (nature/ nurture) did they ever get to decide???

You cannot say indeed that they did decide: there has to be a some-one first to be able to decide.
And again here, the DNA and upbringing explanation is more to quiet the mind, because it doenst know!

i admit that questioning this is completely blowing my mind!

Let it blow, Charlie, let it blow, haha.

To be honest Petrus every day i feel more space and opening up and questioning of all i have ever ‘known’ and what i ‘think’ about things now and what i ‘think’ ‘i know’. As i sit here in silence for a moment there is a huge sense of space and the quiet whirr from the fan in my computer... and that’s okay.

I thank you very much for your trust and to let me be your guide.

I will show your answers to the others guides now.
That will take some time.

Warm regards, Petrus

Hi Charlie,

Another guide asks 2 questions:
1. In your direct experience, what is it that is perceived as DNA and nurture? Can you describe them?
2. Can you answer question 5, the one about choice etc., but describe your actual experience.

Warm regards, Petrus


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Hi Petrus and other guides,

''I know there is no separate entity and some kind of Charles located in me somewhere''.

I am wondering: why do you add "in me somewhere"? What or who is this me?

I say me only referring to my entire body. I know there is no fixed Charles inside this body or outside of it.

You say: my DNA and my upbringing. If there is no Charley, who's is it?

I have used the word 'my' when really i should have used 'this'- i.e- ''this has DNA, and this had an upbringing with a brain that collected experiences and then acted out of those experiences''. I know scientifically speaking that this has DNA and i know that this was raised with experiences (nurture). ( but i only know that when i think- in direct experience i do not know this).

Can you clarify this for me- i can sit and direct my thought to ponder for instance DNA and scientific matters but if i sit in direct experience i do not know i have DNA, i do not know what my body is made of, i do not know what blood is..... i do not know anything. My question would be- when should i use thought? at work maybe when having to work out a psychological theory/ profile relating to a client?

Answering the guides 2 questions:-

1. In your direct experience, what is it that is perceived as DNA and nurture? Can you describe them?

If i 'use' this brain then i can 'think' where DNA is located but if i sit in direct awareness i cannot say what DNA is or where it is located. Upbringing (nurture) i cannot say where this is located even with directed thought (as science does not know where memories are stored) and if i sit in direst awareness there is only a sense of space and i find nurturing cannot be located.

Another pondering if i may- This likes the way it feels to use this brain but the more i sit in direct awareness the quieter everything becomes. In direct awareness i know nothing. Are there times that i can use 'directed thinking'? like at work when i need to work something out for a patient?

2. Can you answer question 5, the one about choice etc., but describe your actual experience. (5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.)

Example-

Today i woke up and a thought popped strongly into this head 'Must pay bills today or i will get into trouble!'. This body got out of bed and went into town and paid the bills. This all happened automatically. Its really hard to describe but it appears that the choice was already made to pay the bills rather than get into trouble but i do not know!

I am sitting here ready to write more... and then i write more- i feel as though i'm compelled rather than deciding?! I really do not know if i choose anything anymore and that is really hard to sit with. I would say that, the more i learn, the less i know about anything.

Soon i know i will have to go to work and i know this body will make plans to get to work but i do not know if i decide to go to work or going to work just happens? do i go to work to pay the bills and is that a decision? Thinking about this creates a pressure in this head. It feels like the definition of a 'head fuck'.

Do i choose anything???? right now i do not know.

Regards,

Charles.

One quick more question, later maybe more:
You say me referring to your entire body.
Are you the body?


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Hi Charlie,

So first of all:

I say me only referring to my entire body. I know there is no fixed Charles inside this body or outside of it.

Arent you making the body a sort of "new I" by that, separate from the rest of the world?
I reread our thread (maybe you do too, and see if there still are issues unmet!) and somewhere I saw this:

Interestingly i don't connect the 'I' with whats in my head but more about this body i have called Charlie for so long.

As we have seen the body is just a concept, made by thought out of sensations of pressure, maybe pain.
If you are healthy you dont even feel the body, except for when hungry, thirsty etc.
What we call our own head is only be seen in mirrors, except for the tip of what should be the nose.
Isnt that true?

Can you clarify this for me- i can sit and direct my thought to ponder for instance DNA and scientific matters but if i sit in direct experience i do not know i have DNA, i do not know what my body is made of, i do not know what blood is..... i do not know anything.

You made a distinction here between moments of pondering and moments of direct experience.
Direct Experience is what is noticed, here and now. (http://liberationunleashed.com/articles ... xperience/). So If there are thoughts there is just experiencing thoughts.
There is nothing wrong with experiencing thoughts, even "I"-thoughts: That is, a as long as you dont believe the content as real!! It is important to be able to distinguish between sensation and the thoughts and mental images that mostly are trying to interpret and assign meaning, but never really succeed.
Can you see this?

My question would be- when should i use thought? at work maybe when having to work out a psychological theory/ profile relating to a client?

Thoughts come and go. "Use" them whenever needed, discard them if you dont. But isnt this automatically so?
You only think you have to decide what to do with thought, so thought again.Isnt that true?

I really do not know if i choose anything anymore and that is really hard to sit with.

Maybe you never did choose anything, because there is no I to do that?

i know this body will make plans to get to work but i do not know if i decide to go to work or going to work just happens?

Again you your body does the it! Have a close look at that.
Plans are made. Period. The body isnt doing that!

do i go to work to pay the bills and is that a decision? Thinking about this creates a pressure in this head.

All just happens.
Thinking will never understand. What IS, is beyond thinking, thats why.
Let the mind do his thing now and then, and just relax. Aint that easy?

Warm regards, Petrus