Partially there maybe? Looking for a guide

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Vivien
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Re: Partially there maybe? Looking for a guide

Postby Vivien » Mon Dec 01, 2014 1:11 am

Dear Jayson,
Vivien: Can it be known how tall the body is?
Jayson: None of the direct senses can give any information about this, only does vision even begin to form any concept like this into being. And even then vision itself doesn't give that, it's thoughts and concepts that imply that.
Yes, very good looking :)
Vivien: What is the body in the actual experience?
Jayson: Nothing I can prove, but it feels that the senses are in direct correlation with each other.
Yes, the body is mentally constructed by welding together a bunch of sensations. And yet this is not about denying the body, but to see what the body is. The body is not what we believed it to be.

Is there a hearer of sounds, or just hearing?
Is there a see-er of sights, or just seeing?
Is there a smeller of smells, or just smelling?
Is there a taster of tastes, or just tasting?
Is there a feeler of sensation, or just sensation?
Is there a thinker of thoughts or just thinking?
Is there an experiencer of experience (this life)...or just life?


Please go through these questions one-by-one. Not just think of them, but actually eat some food and taste it; so when about smelling, actually smell something (same with the other senses).

Love, Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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NotInsideNorOut
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Re: Partially there maybe? Looking for a guide

Postby NotInsideNorOut » Mon Dec 01, 2014 4:45 am

Is there a hearer of sounds, or just hearing?
I sat silently and investigated my direct experience of hearing. Until thoughts are involved there is only hearing and still no locality. It seems the hearing and the thoughts appear to arise in the same space.
Is there a see-er of sights, or just seeing?
Nope, can't find any see-er here either. My mind makes it easy to fall back into assuming there is a see-er in many subtle ways. Motion, seeming of a center where all my vision originates and always does, but directly I can find nothing.
Is there a smeller of smells, or just smelling?
Still no smeller, smelling is all there is. Starting to wonder if a language based on actions or processes instead of nouns would have an easier time with this.
Is there a taster of tastes, or just tasting?
I ate my last meal today searching for the taster, none to be found. Amazing how easy it is to slip back into the constructs of the mind and assume a taster.
Is there a feeler of sensation, or just sensation?
Based on the previous experiments there can't be. When I drop the thoughts just sensation remains.
Is there a thinker of thoughts or just thinking?
This I have definitely investigated many time, there is always just thinking. There is no thinker, no chooser of the thoughts, thinking just arises. I can't even really control them for there is no agent I can find to be the controller. Begs to wonder, how is this all happening then?
Is there an experiencer of experience (this life)...or just life?
This is a good one. The only time there is one is when thoughts tell me there is. By direct experience there is no such thing, just experience unfolding. This also invokes a (getting smaller) fear feeling that will everything be okay if there is no contoller, observer, experiencer?

It almost feels like everything has in it an echo of it's previousness, an imprint to keep it all going. A useful imprint, but maybe taken a bit too seriously.

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Vivien
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Re: Partially there maybe? Looking for a guide

Postby Vivien » Tue Dec 02, 2014 2:02 am

Dear Jayson,
It seems the hearing and the thoughts appear to arise in the same space.
How is this known that thoughts and hearing arise in the same space?
How is this space experienced with which of the 5 senses?
Can it be experienced at all?
Or is this just an arising thought, a mental label stuck to the experiencing?
Do thoughts or hearing appear TO or IN anything, or they just appear with no location at all?

Begs to wonder, how is this all happening then?
What wants to know this?
Is this really important to grasp it intellectually?

The only time there is one is when thoughts tell me there is.
What is this ‘me’ that thoughts supposedly could talk to?
Or are there only appearing thoughts with ‘such-and-such’ content?

By direct experience there is no such thing, just experience unfolding. This also invokes a (getting smaller) fear feeling that will everything be okay if there is no contoller, observer, experiencer?
Dear Jayson, there is ALREADY no controller, observer or experience! So seeing through the illusion won’t change this! Nothing changes, just a belief falls away. There has NEVER BEEN a controller, observer or experience! Never. Ever. Period.

Love, Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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NotInsideNorOut
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Re: Partially there maybe? Looking for a guide

Postby NotInsideNorOut » Tue Dec 02, 2014 2:50 am

How is this known that thoughts and hearing arise in the same space?
Only in that they meet at the same space which is no location.
How is this space experienced with which of the 5 senses?
Feeling, hearing, smelling, tasting are all very clear that they are experienced in this space with no location. Seeing is much harder to drop. For moments I can, but they are very short lived. This sense seems very clingy.
Can it be experienced at all?
Nope I can't see any way to experience that space itself. Seems like it's just more one with the experiencing of the senses. Perhaps not a space at all?
Or is this just an arising thought, a mental label stuck to the experiencing?
It's definitely an afterthought trying to describe the state of experience previously when thoughts and imagery were dropped.
Do thoughts or hearing appear TO or IN anything, or they just appear with no location at all?
No location at all.
What wants to know this?
Thoughts imply that this is wanting to be known, but there is no what, just a continued story of thoughts that is looking.
Is this really important to grasp it intellectually?
No, but to either grasp it experientially or let go of it completely seems important.
What is this ‘me’ that thoughts supposedly could talk to?
Or are there only appearing thoughts with ‘such-and-such’ content?
Only appearing thoughts. Just the feeling of such a me is so ingrained in conditioning, it's easy to slip back.
Dear Jayson, there is ALREADY no controller, observer or experience! So seeing through the illusion won’t change this! Nothing changes, just a belief falls away. There has NEVER BEEN a controller, observer or experience! Never. Ever. Period.
I can see that I have been unable to find a controller or observer, but there still seems to be a clear experience. And to clarify the word doesn't represent it, like a pointer to something directly experienced. It's just this happening with no word for it. It can't be confined by any word at all. I guess the belief that there is any of those just haven't dropped as a belief completely. Or it already has, just thoughts are storytelling otherwise. How could it even be determined if the belief was dropped?

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Vivien
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Re: Partially there maybe? Looking for a guide

Postby Vivien » Tue Dec 02, 2014 3:07 am

Dear Jayson,
Nope I can't see any way to experience that space itself. Seems like it's just more one with the experiencing of the senses. Perhaps not a space at all?
Perhaps it is not :) It is just a mental label attached to the experiencing trying to interpret and give meaning in order to understand it intellectually. But this cannot be understood. Understanding belongs to the real of thinking. But this is prior to thoughts.
Just the feeling of such a me is so ingrained in conditioning, it's easy to slip back.
Of course, it is easy to slip back. And there is nothing problem with it. Slipping back happens hundreds of times a day.

Observe this:
Say out loud the word ‘I’ several times. At the same time try to trace back where the word ‘I’ point to. Try to localise where is the ‘I’ exactly.

You can observe that whenever the word ‘I’ is said or even thought about the focus of attention goes automatically to the bodily sensations (usually somewhere to the upper body or head or both). So there is a direct, automatic association between the word ‘I’ and the felt sensations in the body.

So the word ‘I’ and the bodily sensations are welded together, creating the SENSE of ‘me’. The ‘sense’ part is coming from the felt sensations, and ‘me’ part is coming as a thought. When this is not seen, BUMMM! The illusion of ‘me’ is created. Can you see this?

So, can the ‘I’ be found in the actual experience other than a thought?

I guess the belief that there is any of those just haven't dropped as a belief completely. Or it already has, just thoughts are storytelling otherwise. How could it even be determined if the belief was dropped?
Does the belief needs to be doped or is it enough to see it for what it is, just a belief?

So there is an expectation (belief) that after seeing through the illusion of the self the illusion SHOULD STOP APPEARING with no more identification with the I-thought and stories?


The illusion won’t stop, it will continue to appear, but it is seen only as an illusion, not as a ‘reality’.
Let’s say you are in a desert and there is a mirage in the distance.

Does the mirage go away just because it is seen as a mirage and not believed to be an oasis?
Or the illusion of the mirage still appears, and the only difference that it is not believed to be ‘real’?
When the mirage is seen only as an illusion, does it matter whether it is there or not?


Love, Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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NotInsideNorOut
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Re: Partially there maybe? Looking for a guide

Postby NotInsideNorOut » Wed Dec 03, 2014 12:40 am

So the word ‘I’ and the bodily sensations are welded together, creating the SENSE of ‘me’. The ‘sense’ part is coming from the felt sensations, and ‘me’ part is coming as a thought. When this is not seen, BUMMM! The illusion of ‘me’ is created. Can you see this?
Wow, duh that seems incredibly obvious now.
So, can the ‘I’ be found in the actual experience other than a thought?
Nope.
Does the belief needs to be doped or is it enough to see it for what it is, just a belief?
Seems to be enough for it to be seen for what it is.
So there is an expectation (belief) that after seeing through the illusion of the self the illusion SHOULD STOP APPEARING with no more identification with the I-thought and stories?
It seems I had been fooling myself and not realizing this belief, but it did seem that I felt that way before, yes.
Does the mirage go away just because it is seen as a mirage and not believed to be an oasis?
Or the illusion of the mirage still appears, and the only difference that it is not believed to be ‘real’?
When the mirage is seen only as an illusion, does it matter whether it is there or not?
It doesn't go away, it's just not believed to be real, and no it doesn't matter whether it's real or not.

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Vivien
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Re: Partially there maybe? Looking for a guide

Postby Vivien » Wed Dec 03, 2014 1:16 am

Dear Jayson,
Vivien: So the word ‘I’ and the bodily sensations are welded together, creating the SENSE of ‘me’. The ‘sense’ part is coming from the felt sensations, and ‘me’ part is coming as a thought. When this is not seen, BUMMM! The illusion of ‘me’ is created. Can you see this?
Jayson: Wow, duh that seems incredibly obvious now.
Yes, it’s good to see this :)
It doesn't go away, it's just not believed to be real, and no it doesn't matter whether it's real or not.
Exactly.

Has it been clearly seen that there has never been an ‘I’ that could control or own life or anything?
Is there any chooser or decider of any kind?

Is there an 'I' of any kind whatsoever that could be responsible for anything at all?
Do others have responsibilities?

Is there a 'you' that started this investigation?
Has there ever been a 'you' doing anything?

Any confusion at all or anything you would like to address?


Whet it is seen that there has never been a self, as a next step, there are further six questions to ask as part of this guiding process. The response is then shared with other guides. They may or may not have further questions.

Once it is confirmed by other guides that seeing through the illusion of the self has happened, our conversation in this thread will come to an end, however you won’t be left alone. There is a whole community of others on FB (exclusive LU community), who have also seen through the ‘self’. Further inquiries and discussions happen there.

Are you ready for the six questions?


Love, Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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NotInsideNorOut
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Re: Partially there maybe? Looking for a guide

Postby NotInsideNorOut » Wed Dec 03, 2014 1:39 am

Has it been clearly seen that there has never been an ‘I’ that could control or own life or anything?
Yes.
Is there any chooser or decider of any kind?
No.
Is there an 'I' of any kind whatsoever that could be responsible for anything at all?
No, all thoughts that appear when this question is pondered are seen as mere thoughts, which cannot be responsible for anything.
Do others have responsibilities?
I'm not sure how to put the answer to this question in words. It's quite inadequate. Here is an attempt anyways: If there are others, thoughts arise that they might be like me, thinking they had responsibilities but not actually having them. But that is all conjecture or an illusion separate from sensations.
Is there a 'you' that started this investigation?
Has there ever been a 'you' doing anything?
No to both
Any confusion at all or anything you would like to address?
It seems that thoughts can't really touch this and any confusion exists solely in the thoughts, so that seems fine.
Are you ready for the six questions?
Sure.

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Vivien
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Re: Partially there maybe? Looking for a guide

Postby Vivien » Wed Dec 03, 2014 1:42 am

Dear Jayson,

So here are the six questions. Please answer as clearly as possible and with as much detail as needed. Don’t forget to add everyday examples from your experience for question 5.


1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?


Love, Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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NotInsideNorOut
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Re: Partially there maybe? Looking for a guide

Postby NotInsideNorOut » Thu Dec 04, 2014 7:28 pm

Hi Vivien,

Just letting you know that I will be writing up my answers to these soon, been every busy unpacking my new apartment from my move.

Thanks!
Jayson

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Vivien
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Re: Partially there maybe? Looking for a guide

Postby Vivien » Fri Dec 05, 2014 1:05 am

Dear Jayson,

Thank you for letting me know. Take your time.

Love, Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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NotInsideNorOut
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Re: Partially there maybe? Looking for a guide

Postby NotInsideNorOut » Mon Dec 08, 2014 6:03 pm

Sorry about the delay, I was very busy helping unpack my new apartment.
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
No not in any way that can be directly seen.
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
It starts with a self referential thought and conditioning from childhood. Constant use of language which is built around subject and object can eventually lead to confusion that the I is actually a separate subject. The illusion itself is merely a thought, or a belief (which is really just another kind of thought), or a feeling (which is also very similar if not identical for a thought that manifests itself as a sensation in the body with other thoughts "explaining" what it is). The thought refers to something which cannot be found, the thought is pointing or referring to something which is not there.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
There is a lightness to things now. Less clenching around how actions differ from a view of a static self and that there isn't a self to live up to. The conflict between imagined who I am versus how I act has lessened greatly. Thoughts continue to spiral on as they always have, referring to the self. These events dissipate quicker and I feel less attached to my thoughts, emotions and my body as me. There have been moments of feeling like there is no center to this experience, moments of feeling sensations directly and they feel unrelated to each other in the common sense (like whatever combines all the senses together into a coherent concept of mind/body falls away), and other moments of it being exactly like before this dialogue but with a deeper feeling of it's not as real as it was before. (real might not be the best word but it's the only word I can come up with that is close to describing those moments)
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
2 things really solidified it for me:
So the word ‘I’ and the bodily sensations are welded together, creating the SENSE of ‘me’. The ‘sense’ part is coming from the felt sensations, and ‘me’ part is coming as a thought. When this is not seen, BUMMM! The illusion of ‘me’ is created. Can you see this?
And the dissolution of the belief that once I was looking, the self references would stop appearing. I didn't even realize I had this belief/expectation until we really got into our conversation.
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
Decision: Decisions just happen with no separate agent driving them. Thoughts tell stories after decision to claim ownership over them. Over the past few days I have observed decisions being made, then thoughts following as well as thoughts not following or preceding. Walking down the street, thoughts yammering on about completely unrelated things coupled with periods of no thought and just sensations, yet all decisions about how to get there, stopping when cars pass, and even extra unplanned stops were unable to be correlated to any thought or sensation directly. Therefore they flow forward without any interference or interaction on a supposed "self".

Intention: Seeming to be a precursor to decision, but it just another thought. Since intention "drives" decision and decision flows on without control. When I observed gaps in between thoughts, intention and decision drop away completely. This is not no-intention either. It seems intention lives entirely in thought and not in direct experience.

Free Will: Ah what a grandiose thought one can have. Everything is happening and that is as far as this can go. To assume agents have free will implies separate agents at all, from which I can find no agents. With no agent goes the concept of free will. Hard to elaborate in words, but when looking directly at experience, free will also falls away. It also seems to live entirely in thoughts.

Choice: In many experiments (choosing to have coffee or tea, choosing which clothes to wear and many others), I have searched for a chooser. I have searched for the choice. I have found neither, so choice is an illusion as well. Or rather the chooser and the choice are part of one event (choosing). The mind and thoughts bifurcate this into two separate entities which neither really can be found upon close and direct inspection.

Control: This idea depends entirely on the last answers. There is no way to separate it from them as it implies them. I can find no control just as I have failed to find any of the above.
6) Anything to add?
There have been more thoughts asking if there is no center and there is no self, then what is "this"? But those are just more thoughts and when looking directly, it all falls away. There has been some fear of letting go completely, but that is also quickly seen through with who is that which fears, where is it?

I'd also like to thank you for walking me through this. I had done many self-enquiry exercises in the past from a book (The Direct Path by Greg Goode), but having a guide to bounce things off of was crucial in fuller understanding.

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Vivien
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Re: Partially there maybe? Looking for a guide

Postby Vivien » Mon Dec 08, 2014 11:13 pm

Dear Jayson,

Thank you for answering the questions.
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
No not in any way that can be directly seen.
Is there a self anywhere, in any way that is not-directly seen?

Love, Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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NotInsideNorOut
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Re: Partially there maybe? Looking for a guide

Postby NotInsideNorOut » Tue Dec 09, 2014 12:23 am

Is there a self anywhere, in any way that is not-directly seen?
In short: no, there is no separate self anywhere.

On the other hand there is obviously a "self", but that is merely an empty concept, not an actual thing. It is not separate in any way.

There is also an idea that there could be a "self" in the manner of which cannot be seen because it is that in which seeing happens. Like chewing your own teeth, or touching the tip of your fingertip with that same fingertip. You can never do it and thus this "self" could never be seen. But that is just another thought and certainly not separate from the seeing or the seen.

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Vivien
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Re: Partially there maybe? Looking for a guide

Postby Vivien » Tue Dec 09, 2014 8:41 pm

Dear Jayson,

I'm happy to say that the guides are satisfied that you have seen through the illusion of a separate self and none of them has any further questions.

I'm sending you a private message, so please check your inbox.

Love, Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/


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