An invitation to look...

[Minties]

Imagine a crazy imagining a dragon, and then he believes the dragon is attacking him, or the dragon is doing something, or beleiving, or creating something, what is real about the dragon? how could an illusion possibly do something real?

Nothing is real about the dragon. There is some mechanism in the human being that triggers the “being attacked by the dragon” experience based on the thought of it. The feeling in the body is very real when a thought pointing to something in fantasy land is mistakenly believed to exist.

Still an assumption of an I that IS something, so before trying to explain what the I is like you've done here, dig deeper and see what it is you are referring to first.

Ahh OK. Right.

So what IS creating the thought, and where does the self come into it?
Minities wrote:I honestly don't know. I can ponder about it being related to the previous thoughts and the current circumstances but in all honesty the author of the thoughts is a mystery. I can see the self has values and the thoughts reflect that. Oh.... is it the virtual personality thinking?

adriandc wrote:Look carefully at the bold bit, and see what is it you are referring to.

A really, really tough one. I must remind myself that the self cannot be squeezed so I’m referring to thoughts. A series of thoughts that give the illusion of a consistent entity even in fantasy land because each thought in the series has common elements including the assumption that the self exists.
There is definitely something moving the body and the body is on auto-pilot. I don’t control it. Would it not be the case that every single thought itself is thought by life also? I have no control over the thoughts I think too. Yet, if that is true my mind cannot escape the fact that the whole assumption of self existing (which seems like a colossal mistake) is by design.

Look closely at the sense of you, and pinpoint where it begins, where does it end, what is it made up of?
Minties wrote:It has a sense of being constant which I haven't noticed before. Like a super-thin contact lens covering awareness. If an actor was playing a role I guess even when they're waiting for their lines they are still playing the part. I don't know where it begins and ends. It's an elusive little fellow.

When I look for the sense of me thoughts (images) appear. It is made of thought. It begins when I start looking for it and ends when I stop looking for it. Like the brain is trying to make stuff up to fit the assumption.
What I was referring to (which only now I recognize is different to the sense of me) was the assumption that seems to be constant in everything I do. Including writing this to you now. The assumption that the self exists. Although the assumption is definitely weakening.

Well go back to your other senses. Lets take touching an object, what is real about the experience , in terms of senses , sight, etc.
Smelling an object, what is real about the sense, when does it start , when does it end? What causes the experience?

This really, really surprised me. I’m still not sure I know the answer but one thing I didn’t expect was how alive everything became. The more I looked to see what was real about the experience the more fresh and alive the senses became. It was almost like I’ve never seen/heard/smelt/tasted/touched before until now. It was if I could perceive an aliveness in everything which was just a joy to do.
Still not sure but this is what I discovered: The sense starts and ends with the interaction of the human body. I see that experience is not possible without the human body. The experience has a life of its own. I’m not doing any of it. There is no effort.

Then move onto this sense of you, only answer what you can truly 100% confidently say is true, how does this sense compare to the other senses Im talking about.

I considered and discarded many ideas, and then I went through a phase of wondering if there was any reality in any of the senses (and still feel a little like this), and now struggling with trying to define “real”! I’d like to spend another day looking at this before I answer if it is OK.

[adriandc]

Hi Michael, apologies, didnt get enough time online today, but will be on tommorow to reply properly. I guess in the mean time keep digging, as I said before, it aint about this thread , its about your willingness to push at this all the time to see if there is really a you in reality at all, ever.

[adriandc]

keep your focus on this, making sure not replace your belief of self as something real with a virtual personality , as if it were real

Yes, thank you.

What creates the virtual personality?

It is one of the most beautiful abilities of the human organism to be able to conceptualize. And a concept is an idea/thought that lives in fantasy land not real land). For example the human organism will see metal, glass, windshield wipers, headlights and four wheels and label it as a car. This can then have a real feel to it. Some car owners even give their cars names and treat it (and feel) as if it were a person. I remembered I once felt sorry for my car because I left it out in freezing weather one night. But in reality it is a collection of parts that are put together in order to move a human being. It was the human organism that was able to make the sum of the parts an imaginary entity, label it (as a car), imagine an identity for it (as Gertie my car) and experience feelings when the thoughts of the entity arise.

In a similar manner this ability is being utilized when the human organism becomes aware of itself. A character is created in fantasy land (in the mind) to represent the collection of human parts. This is then experienced by the body. The mind appears to be able to be easily tricked into believing that imagined content truly exists in reality. The body appears to respond to thoughts whether or not those thoughts point to reality land or something imagined in fantasy land.

But is the case in your experience? Are you still believing the fantasy of self?

[adriandc]

Nothing is real about the dragon. There is some mechanism in the human being that triggers the “being attacked by the dragon” experience based on the thought of it. The feeling in the body is very real when a thought pointing to something in fantasy land is mistakenly believed to exist.

Exactly!!

So what IS creating the thought, and where does the self come into it?

Minities wrote:I honestly don't know. I can ponder about it being related to the previous thoughts and the current circumstances but in all honesty the author of the thoughts is a mystery. I can see the self has values and the thoughts reflect that. Oh.... is it the virtual personality thinking?

you need to look directly, as oppose to pondering, how can something make believe even think?

A really, really tough one. I must remind myself that the self cannot be squeezed so I’m referring to thoughts. A series of thoughts that give the illusion of a consistent entity even in fantasy land because each thought in the series has common elements including the assumption that the self exists.
There is definitely something moving the body and the body is on auto-pilot. I don’t control it. Would it not be the case that every single thought itself is thought by life also? I have no control over the thoughts I think too. Yet, if that is true my mind cannot escape the fact that the whole assumption of self existing (which seems like a colossal mistake) is by design.

its irrelivent, what were looking at here is whether it actually does exist or not, not anything else.

When I look for the sense of me thoughts (images) appear. It is made of thought. It begins when I start looking for it and ends when I stop looking for it. Like the brain is trying to make stuff up to fit the assumption.
What I was referring to (which only now I recognize is different to the sense of me) was the assumption that seems to be constant in everything I do. Including writing this to you now. The assumption that the self exists. Although the assumption is definitely weakening.

Challenge the assumption and write what you truly experience.

This really, really surprised me. I’m still not sure I know the answer but one thing I didn’t expect was how alive everything became. The more I looked to see what was real about the experience the more fresh and alive the senses became. It was almost like I’ve never seen/heard/smelt/tasted/touched before until now. It was if I could perceive an aliveness in everything which was just a joy to do.
Still not sure but this is what I discovered: The sense starts and ends with the interaction of the human body. I see that experience is not possible without the human body. The experience has a life of its own. I’m not doing any of it. There is no effort.

When you say "im not doing any of it", again you're making that assumption, what is that is not any of it?

I considered and discarded many ideas, and then I went through a phase of wondering if there was any reality in any of the senses (and still feel a little like this), and now struggling with trying to define “real”! I’d like to spend another day looking at this before I answer if it is OK.

Ok, remember the keep the focus all the time, it aint a case of logging in here to answer a few questions and then go about your business again, to see this you must give this your all.

So just wondering, where are you at? So you seem to have a clear grasp that there is no self, that doesnt mean by any means that you have seen the truth of it, but you seem to understand it, but we need to push further. Has anything changed or has there been any experience yet to match up the answers you are giving? Or is simply a case that you understand the concept but still dont see it in experience?

[Minties]

Hi adriandc,

Thanks again for all your support and thanks for the reinforcement that it’s about actually focusing and not about the blog. I can reassure you that I’ve got this message. Apart from some of the practicalities of life, every single ounce of energy and time available to me I use to focus. Long ago I gave up all forms of entertainment. I don’t watch TV, listen to music or go to events. I’ve given up all friends and hobbies and barely stay in contact with my family. It has been like this since my initial experience. Often the walls of my apartment are covered in paper and post-it-notes. I often only sleep for 4 or 5 hours because my time is spent in meditation or reading spiritual texts. My girlfriend used to think I was crazy but our lives have improved drastically through the efforts so she accepts it now. Please don’t hesitate to continue to prompt me to stay focused (it’s kind of you) but I guarantee you it would not be possible for me not to stay focused. I write a response daily out of respect. If this is not necessary or helpful I will wait until it is appropriate. I've never blogged before. Please do not feel obliged to respond to me quickly. While there is strong intensity for me to know illusion it has been my experience that everything happens when it is meant to.

The truth of it was seen and I have deep experiences daily but I do not see the truth now. Before Michael was absolutely seen at a distance and so was everyone else’s self. There’s a desperation now of trying to figure out the new rules. Trying to make sense of my life now. There is also still doubt.

Life feels very shaken up for me now also because when you asked me to look for what was real in my senses I suddenly realized that there was nothing real about my sense of sight. Now, this may be going backwards but there was no doubt (and still feels that way now) that everything is NOT as it appears. What is seen is NOT real. The mind is all up in it.

I don’t see the truth of no-self in my experience now but I’m beginning to feel like a conduit for energy. I feel like there is a falling in place and the self has taken a back-seat. My life is becoming more about assisting others on whatever path they are on. If anger came up from someone my feeling would be one of welcoming it as if it was going through me to where it needed to go next.

The other life-altering experience (that started when you asked about the reality in my other senses) was an amazing thirst for experience. A lot of fear has dropped because there is such energy now to have experience even if that experience is a failed business or a rejection. There is a feeling of even those things being just a wonderful experience.

While all those experiences are true and completely mind-blowing there is still, in this moment, a sense of me writing to you. When I look for me I see something like the inside of a black-hole yet there is still the sense of me here. Although there are also very genuine doubts that self exists.

[adriandc]

Hi adriandc,

Thanks again for all your support and thanks for the reinforcement that it’s about actually focusing and not about the blog. I can reassure you that I’ve got this message. Apart from some of the practicalities of life, every single ounce of energy and time available to me I use to focus. Long ago I gave up all forms of entertainment. I don’t watch TV, listen to music or go to events. I’ve given up all friends and hobbies and barely stay in contact with my family. It has been like this since my initial experience. Often the walls of my apartment are covered in paper and post-it-notes. I often only sleep for 4 or 5 hours because my time is spent in meditation or reading spiritual texts. My girlfriend used to think I was crazy but our lives have improved drastically through the efforts so she accepts it now. Please don’t hesitate to continue to prompt me to stay focused (it’s kind of you) but I guarantee you it would not be possible for me not to stay focused. I write a response daily out of respect. If this is not necessary or helpful I will wait until it is appropriate. I've never blogged before. Please do not feel obliged to respond to me quickly. While there is strong intensity for me to know illusion it has been my experience that everything happens when it is meant to.

Well , unless you concentrate solely on the existence/non existence of a self, nothing will happen (unless it happens by chance)

The truth of it was seen and I have deep experiences daily but I do not see the truth now. Before Michael was absolutely seen at a distance and so was everyone else’s self. There’s a desperation now of trying to figure out the new rules. Trying to make sense of my life now. There is also still doubt.

The body still exists, thoughts still arise. Is there self amongst all this?

Life feels very shaken up for me now also because when you asked me to look for what was real in my senses I suddenly realized that there was nothing real about my sense of sight. Now, this may be going backwards but there was no doubt (and still feels that way now) that everything is NOT as it appears. What is seen is NOT real. The mind is all up in it.

Ok, listen , chill, your not gonna be able to deny experience, so all this stuff about your sense of sight not being real IS going backwards, and you know it. When I say keep focused, Im talking about keeping focused on no you.
Just that, nothing else, I asked you to look at your other senses so you could experience them and be able to a reason why the senses are experiencing something, in contract to the experience of a self, which is based on nothing, nothing at all, simply a thought.

I don’t see the truth of no-self in my experience now but I’m beginning to feel like a conduit for energy. I feel like there is a falling in place and the self has taken a back-seat.

A thought has taken a back seat? What is it you are trying to push away exactly?

The other life-altering experience (that started when you asked about the reality in my other senses) was an amazing thirst for experience. A lot of fear has dropped because there is such energy now to have experience even if that experience is a failed business or a rejection. There is a feeling of even those things being just a wonderful experience.

So has there been a change of sorts during this thread? And if so , what relation to they have to the idea of you?
I just need more clarity here with the subject at hand :)

While all those experiences are true and completely mind-blowing there is still, in this moment, a sense of me writing to you. When I look for me I see something like the inside of a black-hole yet there is still the sense of me here. Although there are also very genuine doubts that self exists.

Ok, this is better, more on topic, and more focused. Examine that sense extremely closely, in every action you take, every time you refer to "it", examine where it is, examine what it feels physically like.

[Minties]

There are so many thoughts. Constant thoughts that keep me up at night and thoughts that wake me up early in the morning. Thoughts and thoughts about thoughts. Me is as strong as I've ever seen it ! And I think everything we covered before is forgotten (except that the body is on auto-pilot). There is such a deep thirst for knowledge about the way thoughts work and how they could've tricked me. It seems impossible to move forward without a better understanding of what thoughts are and how they work. It feels irresponsible to not. And through all that there seems to be a little point of consciousness that is aware of all this. Looking at that gives some relief. I'm more highly strung that I ever imagined I could be!

[adriandc]

There are so many thoughts. Constant thoughts that keep me up at night and thoughts that wake me up early in the morning. Thoughts and thoughts about thoughts. Me is as strong as I've ever seen it ! And I think everything we covered before is forgotten (except that the body is on auto-pilot). There is such a deep thirst for knowledge about the way thoughts work and how they could've tricked me. It seems impossible to move forward without a better understanding of what thoughts are and how they work. It feels irresponsible to not.

Thoughts arise, and will always arise.
Look, this is not a project you take on whether you start inquiries, cover lots of different angles, lay out results, and draw conclusions. Its about looking in your experience to see what is the "I". Its about an honest look, its not about thoughts, not this topic anyway, not this looking.
Examining thoughts and their content is pointless, right now anyway, its completely pointless unless youve see there is no self experiencing them, unless you bring your attention to just that.
Every time you are not looking, try and be honest, and know you are not looking, and then get back to looking.
Its not deep, its not trick where looking means something else, its just looking directly in your experience to see is there a you experiencing, or is it just being experienced?

And through all that there seems to be a little point of consciousness that is aware of all this. Looking at that gives some relief. I'm more highly strung that I ever imagined I could be!

bring all that closer, all the fear, all the discomfort, bring it closer and let it happen, its just side effects of beliefs being challenged. Of course everything is still aware and conscious of whats going on, but the self, the you , the "Michael", what about that?

[Minties]

Understood. All the projects are on hold. The digging has restarted in earnest.

[adriandc]

Hows it going for you Michael?

[Minties]

Well, there are no shortages of mind blowing experiences.

It seems it is the illusion of control that is one the big things that locks this story in place. After I reread our posts it was 2 questions that you put to me that focused the attention again so that it could see the trick...again (by the way there is a sense of having fun with stories even when I write this sentence to you). Anyway, the questions are:
1. What decided the thought to occur?
2. What influenced the thought?
I keep focusing on these as much as I can as they really help to separate reality from the mind games and allowed me to keep digging.

But today, for a very brief instant while eating lunch in a cafe, the body was no longer identified with (not even a trace) and it brought tears (of relief) to the eyes. There was also a sense then of ohhh… OK…. I’m being unfolded. It is not a matter of me needing to work hard to find no-self there is just working hard going on. Then very unexpectedly Michael got up and walked back to work and noticed a lot of other of those human beings walking around.

There is a sense that I am just seeing the tip of the iceberg but that tip was seen well enough to know the jig is up. I’m not living it most of the day… there is still a lot of dark thoughts and anger (I think because Michael as a concept had a hole poked through it) but there is enough of a momentum. (There is also a zest for life and experience)

It just seems unbelievable how… I don’t even know what to call it anymore… I will call it mind… how mind can receive a whole heap of stimuli and paint the illusion Michael so convincingly.

Apart from noticing how highly strung and intense Michael can be, the other thing noticed is that Michael LOVES Michael. Well, OK, that is all story and assumption but there are thoughts of memories (image type thoughts that occurred in the past about something that was not directly/truly known!) pictures of what this one imagined itself to look like in different situations from the past and there is a feeling of love/preciousness and a great sense of loss (grief?) felt in the body. A real lot of that going on right now. Did you experience that?

[Minties]

Just wanted to check in to say that it turns out that it was lived the whole day today. Actually for the first time in the last four years my intense search has ended. Relief, relief, relief. The desire to pursue anything has completed. There is a curiosity about life now but it is only for the fun of discovery. Of course it's only been one day, but what a day! Great feelings of appreciation arise to you and Liberation Unleashed.

That snap yesterday of body disidentification changed something deep, deep in the programming. The programming seems to be in a process of being reprogrammed. By the way, that snap occurred because I couldn't figure out at what point in time (from the point where I was my parent's genetic material through to now) when I took ownership of the body. The other thing was the thinking about if it were true that there was not even the slightest trace of me, what would that mean for my desire to control. That allowed to see even the most pointiest (strongest identified) thoughts as the organism's thoughts, not my thoughts.

It is the weirdest thing. Something that was previously unimaginable but here it is... experience without an experiencer... for the whole day. Man, the human operates a hell of a lot better when that illusion gets out of the way. The thinking becomes more harmonious. Today things were taken a lot less personally. That zest for experience is strong, there is fearlessness, great confidence and a much greater level of acceptance of everything. In fact some things that would ordinary cause me discomfort made me laugh today.

There is also a sense of being a baby in the new world. There is so much that is unknown. I have the most minimal understanding of what is going on here. But experiencing without an I makes me laugh and laugh and laugh.

[adriandc]

Hey Michael, sorry about the delay, thats looking good,
Jsut wondering could you answer a couple of questions..

In your honest direct experience, is there a you (keeping in mind I already know you it intellectually)?

What specifically is different to before?

What is different to your experience that started this search?

Can you effects in your day to day life? If so, could you throw out an example or 2?

[Minties]

In your honest direct experience, is there a you (keeping in mind I already know you it intellectually)?

No me. We are way, way beyond an intellectual understanding.

What specifically is different to before?

It’s hard to explain because I have no idea what is going on around here. There is no me and no you and no him and no her. Feels like the universe is my mother and everything is just happening and it doesn’t freak me out at all. Feels very natural. There is total acceptance of what the body is doing and feeling. It’s starting to act a little more quirky and well, that is quite alright.

What is different to your experience that started this search?

Wow. OK. Nice question. I’m not sure there is a lot of value in comparing the experiences… just that’s what happened… but it is an excellent question. Also, the feeling is like we’re really getting into stories now. There never was a me to own that experience but I will play along as that is the way, isn’t it. The first experience still had a believed in entity owning the experience. The experience now does not.

Can you effects in your day to day life? If so, could you throw out an example or 2?

1. Confidence. Let me tell you a story: Today I had an important presentation to do to some customers. In the middle of the demo I kicked out the power cord and everyone looked at me like I was an idiot. I calmly walked over, fixed the problem, apologized and got it back running again. No nervousness, no fuss. Of course it would’ve been fine if I broke down in tears and cried like a baby… just that would’ve been what was happening. As it turns out I looked super cool and that is fine too. (And it is awesome now watching this one operate around the opposite sex.).

2. Delight. Another story: I was walking to work and noticed some litter on the side of one of the busiest streets in my city. It was one of those cardboard roll things that you find in the middle of a roll of toilet paper. It felt as if it had been placed there just to amuse me. It felt as if there were a whole heap of events that took place to bring it to lay precisely there, precisely then.

I’d really like to learn more. Would there be any materials you’d recommend?

[adriandc]

Hi Michael , thats great, well done, welcome to your new life! :P
Ill just get one or two others to read this thread just to make sure to confirm your actually done done!!, only because its a shame to confirm people when they aint quite over the line. But what you describe pretty much lines up with what it was like for me when I first saw it.

Regarding material etc.
Well firstly , there is a facebook group full of like minded people which I will get the link for, just a place to share your thoughts and troubles as the journey continues. I don't have the link right now becauseI left the group, but ill send it on to you.

There is also some stuff that really really helped me over time.

1. Adyashanti - End of your world, if you have read it already, I would read it again, it will make alot more sense now, and also will prepare you for what's ahead. I would love to have read this when I first saw no self.

2. For continuing and deepening , and trying to push for deeper steadier enlightenment - Daniel Ingram - Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha. If you were to take his model and progress of insight, I would say we are at the level of "stream entry". A sort of 1st path. I may be further at this but I need to read more about it to get a better understanding.

To any lurkers reading that isnt free yet , Im only recommending these books to Michael because he is already at a certain stage. If you have not seen no self, dont take that advice, concentrate on no self.

What else,..

Basically, a big piece of advice I can offer is to accept that although something huge, irreversible,and possibly great has just happened in your life, dont get too egotistical, keep your feet on the ground, keep looking to learn and push further, accept there are others that have "been there done that".
Im not saying you will definitely act a certainway, but Ive just seen it alot of times, (from myself and others),. the "enlightened" ego, if you get me.

The biggest piece of advice I can offer is dont be surprised if cycles and retractions begin to occur, sorry I know it may sound like Im spoiling the party, but now is essentially the beginning, the end of what you were looking FOR, but the beginning of the exploration of it all, and all the stuff in your life will most likely start to rise up and it may not be nice, you may be convinced you've lost it all, but just go with it, see what your learning from it, and stay as honest as you can, it WILL be seriously worth it. (you wont really have a choice tbh lol)
Even if honesty means "I feel fucking crap, I need to see why", well then accept it, dont pretend you are not if you get me.