The Gate

When watching thoughts: getting caught up with or deliberately active within thoughts, my sense of self feels no different to the thought. At that moment I am the thought.
Watching simple things like sounds, the feeling of being an observer comes and goes, it seems to rise out of nowhere (subconscious?) and is non verbal, it does seem to have thought like substance.
Meditating with eyes closed the sense of self is strongly centred in the head and less so when meditating eyes open. This makes me wonder if the experience of a self is related to the experience of the senses. The stronger the experience of the sense the stronger the sense of self.

When that watching happens, can it be found some separate entity apart from the very watching of thoughts, emotions, and volitions?

When looking at thoughts: when I am actively thinking or caught up in thought, the flavour of self in the thought is very strong. It is as if the self and the thought are not different.
Meditating with eyes closed on simple things like sounds, there is changing, wavering sense of self. This seems to arise from nowhere (sub-conscious?). Although, non-verbal it has a similar consistency to thought.
Meditating eyes closed, my sense of self is strongly located in the head.
Meditating eyes open, I cannot find an internal observer unless thoughts are present. The coming and going of the observer feels very marked – either on or off, and not wavering as when eyes closed.
I wonder about the relationship between the physical senses and the experience of self.

You said when watching thoughts you are not some separate entity apart from thoughts.

- Very good observation!

Indeed! At that moment you are the thought. 'You', the 'I', are also thoughts. Thoughts arising and then telling the story, "it must be me".

And you said;

"When I am actively thinking or caught up in though (...) it is as if the self and the thinker are not different"

- What is that 'I'? That 'thinker'? Is he something real that you can find, or just thinking occurring?

When you meditate eyes shut a sense of self arises from times to times. You said:

"Although it is non verbal it seem to have thought light substance."

- What is this? Do you mean that something non verbal makes you feel a self? How does it happen? Look! Describe it in detail.

When you meditate eyes open, you cannot find any observer until thoughts are present.

- Very good observation also!

I ask you to look again and to find out what really is that observer, how does it manifest? Is he really an independent observer, a 'self' observing, or is it awareness of thoughts happening, and you feel that awareness at the same time as thoughts and not independently from them?

I ask you to look again and to find out:
what really is that observer, how does it manifest?
Is he really an independent observer, a 'self' observing, or is it awareness of thoughts happening, and you feel that awareness at the same time as thoughts and not independently from them?

Hi,
The relationship between thought and observer is perhaps becoming a little clearer.
As thoughts arise within awareness the thought is experienced as object. The awareness which the thought arises within is then experienced as subject. The observer arises out of the observed.

Thoughts are very regular so the experience of an observer arises frequently also. I can see how in a situation which involves a lot of stimulation (most situations outside meditation) this could be taken for a continuous experience, or a self.

As a thought drops away in meditation I notice that there is a residual sense of personality or self which has arisen with/in the thought. This appears to fade quickly. A kind of "after-shock".

I also notice subtle thoughts which are sub-vocal - thoughts without words - mind images almost, which seem to be related to place, time and situation. These seem to be like feelers going out. They establish a sense of self by establishing an inner world and an outer word: "I am meditating in my bedroom, it is late afternoon."
I get a sense that this is a sort of existential anxiety. A neurotic need to establish existence.

If the sense of a self arises upon separate and apparently disconnected thoughts, how do we explain an apparent trend in the types of thought and subjects of thought? My emotional patterns seem to follow habitual paths. I recognize an ongoing personality, even if this changes slowly over time.

As thoughts arise within awareness the thought is experienced as object. The awareness which the thought arises within is then experienced as subject. The observer arises out of the observed.

Exactly. Thoughts, feelings, sensations, arise and awareness notice them all. There's no observer, nor things observed, no subject nor object, there is only observation. However thoughts divide the experience, building up the illusion of a separate subject that observes, and a separate object that is observed.

I can see how in a situation which involves a lot of stimulation (most situations outside meditation) this could be taken for a continuous experience, or a self.

Yes, of a separate self which is the doer of deeds, the experiencer of experiences. However, there is only experiencing, no subject and object.

As a thought drops away in meditation I notice that there is a residual sense of personality or self which has arisen with/in the thought.

I call your attention to the words you used, "which has arisen with/in the thought". That's it. With/in the thought itself. that residual sense of self came within thought, it has no separate entity.

I ask you to look again and to find out:
what really is that observer, how does it manifest?
Is he really an independent observer, a 'self' observing, or is it awareness of thoughts happening, and you feel that awareness at the same time as thoughts and not independently from them?

Hi,
The relationship between thought and observer is perhaps becoming a little clearer.
As thoughts arise within awareness the thought is experienced as object. The awareness which the thought arises within is then experienced as subject. The observer arises out of the observed.

Thoughts are very regular so the experience of an observer arises frequently also. I can see how in a situation which involves a lot of stimulation (most situations outside meditation) this could be taken for a continuous experience, or a self.

As a thought drops away in meditation I notice that there is a residual sense of personality or self which has arisen with/in the thought. This appears to fade quickly. A kind of "after-shock".

I also notice subtle thoughts which are sub-vocal - thoughts without words - mind images almost, which seem to be related to place, time and situation. These seem to be like feelers going out. They establish a sense of self by establishing an inner world and an outer word: "I am meditating in my bedroom, it is late afternoon."
I get a sense that this is a sort of existential anxiety. A neurotic need to establish existence.

I will be back in a minute.

For your last comments: This sense of self, does it correspond to a real, separate self? In direct experience, how do you know that there us an inner and an outer?

Vi Vic! Are you ok?

Hi, sorry not to post yesterday. A crazy long day. I am fine.

Inside and outside is not a constant thing. If I concentrate on an external object the centre of my awareness seems to be outside.
Meditating eyes open, my thoughts often appear.to arise in front of my face - almost as if in my visual field.
The division between an internal awareness and an external awareness is not clear to me. Neither is the edge or the middle.

Dear Vic,

I am not able to work with you anymore because I will no longer be here.

I'm going to communicate it in order for you can have another guide if you want to continue.

Wishing you all the best. You are very near!

Sorry to hear this. It is disappointing.
It would be helpful to my process to know a little more about why you are withdrawing.
Wishing you all the best.
Vic

Hi Vic,

I would be happy to continue where Fabiola left off with you. I have years of experience as a meditator and Buddhist, although I would not claim myself to be either today. You can find out more about me here, if needed - http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... f=5&t=2999 .

Let me know if you would like to continue with me.

Joseph ♥︎