looking for some help

[yuvi]

I don’t know what to answer here. It’s really frustrating. I’m looking and looking and I don’t know how to answer this question. There’s looking but I don’t know where it starts.

BECAUSE THERE IS NO YOU THAT IS LOOKING. ‘Looking’ happens. ‘Frustration’ happens. There are multitudes of experiences all happening in the NOW. There is ‘thinking’ to do more ‘looking’, ‘seeking’ to find more answers, ‘wanting’ to reply my questions – all are real experiences happening, but were experienced by NO ONE. There is NO ‘MAT’ in the middle of these experiences. Can this be seen?

Thought is based in language and language can be very confusing as it presumes a subject at all times.
Does the habit of referring back to thoughts about ‘me’ indicate an entity, or a ‘driver’ of any kind in ‘reality’?
Or have you merely accepted the apparent implication that language produces that if there is an action then there must be a doer or a driver?
Go to the actual experience and check

It feels like I'm looking all the time in the same place like an idiot and can't see nothing. I've been stuck at this place for years.

What do you expect to find? YOU were never there before, or now, or will be found ever. The feeling of ‘stuck’ at this place for years is a THOUGHT. It is a PAST THOUGHT appearing in the NOW. ‘Thinking’ about past experience, ‘wanting’ to re-experience that, ‘frustration’ of this ‘wanting’ not being ‘achieved’ - this whole mechanism is just happening in the NOW. The feeling that YOU are in the middle of this mechanism is a THOUGHT. Look if there is an experiencer of all that is being experienced in this process of seeking?

Actually, it feels more outside the body. Same with hearing. Right now I’m hearing some noises and I can’t say that they appear behind the eyes. They just appear but I can’t find where this happens

Let’s do a little experiment:

Sit in a place where you are comfortable. It is not necessary to be a silent room, a little noise around is better. Close your eyes and take few deep breaths as I suggested earlier.

Observe for any boundaries that separates INSIDE from OUTSIDE. Thoughts might appear giving a ‘feel’ of a ‘you being a space’ in which sensations come and go. That is nothing but a THOUGHT! Look out for it.

When you get lost in thought (sometimes very subtle), gently come back to present sensations. This is applicable throughout the exercise.

Observe each sound that is heard. For e.g. A cooker whistling. Observe closely. You will notice mental labelling of the sound the moment it is heard. First there will be a raw sensation of sound. Simultaneously, there will be a series of mental labelling: sound is labelled “whistle”, then “whistling of a cooker”, then “a cooker whistling in neighbour house”, then “I hear a cooker whistling in neighbour house’. Labelling occurs instantly. Can you notice these?

This applies to all sensations. For now, do this exercise for 15-20 minutes for sounds.
After 15-20 minutes, your mind becomes focussed and settled, and the labelling lessens. ‘Sounds’ will be less precise, i.e. there is less certainty about the nature of that sound. The sensations of sound will be raw.

Open your eyes and try to answer these questions for any sound (repeat the exercise, if necessary, to find out answers):

1. Is this sound perceived to be coming from a distant place? From somewhere outside?
2. Is there an “inside” where this sound enters for you to hear? Like pouring water into a vessel, is there a ‘point’ where you are present, and this sound enters from outside?
3. Does variation in intensity of sound suggests that it comes from ‘far’ or ‘near’? Or only thoughts suggest so?
4. Do you see any boundary between inside and outside in DE?
5. Can there be a sound when it is not heard?
6. Who is hearing the sound? Is there only sound or ‘something’ that is hearing the sound?

If I say that the hearing, hearer and the heard (sound) are all the same, what happens? Can you find this separation in DE?

[Mateo_x]

hey, thanks for your long answer.

BECAUSE THERE IS NO YOU THAT IS LOOKING. ‘Looking’ happens. ‘Frustration’ happens. There are multitudes of experiences all happening in the NOW. There is ‘thinking’ to do more ‘looking’, ‘seeking’ to find more answers, ‘wanting’ to reply my questions – all are real experiences happening, but were experienced by NO ONE. There is NO ‘MAT’ in the middle of these experiences. Can this be seen?

Yes, I can see that all these thoughts and emotions are experienced but an actual experiencer is not seen.

Thought is based in language and language can be very confusing as it presumes a subject at all times.
Does the habit of referring back to thoughts about ‘me’ indicate an entity, or a ‘driver’ of any kind in ‘reality’?
Or have you merely accepted the apparent implication that language produces that if there is an action then there must be a doer or a driver?
Go to the actual experience and check

I haven’t found an actual “I” that does things so I can say it’s only an assumption. For example when I say “I’m typing right now” I assume that there is an “I” that does the typing. However direct experience just shows that fingers touch the keyboard and there’s no central doer.

Look if there is an experiencer of all that is being experienced in this process of seeking?

I ask myself what am I feeling and thinking right now. There are thoughts that say: “this is frustrating”, “this is never gonna go anywhere”, “I’m never going to get it”. There is frustration and boredom. Now I look for an experiencer. I can’t experience the experiencer. I feel all these feelings, I see all these thoughts. But I can’t see what sees them.

Observe for any boundaries that separates INSIDE from OUTSIDE. Thoughts might appear giving a ‘feel’ of a ‘you being a space’ in which sensations come and go. That is nothing but a THOUGHT! Look out for it.

That’s exactly what I feel. That there is a space in which thought happens and that this space is closely related to me.

Observe each sound that is heard. For e.g. A cooker whistling. Observe closely. You will notice mental labelling of the sound the moment it is heard. First there will be a raw sensation of sound. Simultaneously, there will be a series of mental labelling: sound is labelled “whistle”, then “whistling of a cooker”, then “a cooker whistling in neighbour house”, then “I hear a cooker whistling in neighbour house’. Labelling occurs instantly. Can you notice these?

Yes. I see the difference between raw sounds and labels. I can also see how the labelling happens instantly. When I hear a sound, my mind searches for a label and gives an answer for example “computer fan”.

1. Is this sound perceived to be coming from a distant place? From somewhere outside?

Yes it feels like the sound is coming from somewhere outside. Some sounds feel like they’re close to me and some are distant. When I close my eyes and observe them it feels like they’re all the same distance but have different intensity.

2. Is there an “inside” where this sound enters for you to hear? Like pouring water into a vessel, is there a ‘point’ where you are present, and this sound enters from outside?

No I don’t see any inside. I just see that the sounds are outside and there is no point where they enter.

3. Does variation in intensity of sound suggests that it comes from ‘far’ or ‘near’? Or only thoughts suggest so?

Like I answered in question 1 it feels like they’re the same distance but thoughts tell me which sound comes from where.

4. Do you see any boundary between inside and outside in DE?

To me it feels like there’s no inside and I only feel the outside. Now I get a feeling that there’s no inside and no outside. It’s weird because logically it makes sense that there’s inside (where thoughts are) and outside (when the rest of the world is). However it feels like the world is not divided like that. That there’s one thing, no outside/inside division.

5. Can there be a sound when it is not heard?

I don’t know what to say to this one. If there are no people on earth and music plays from a speaker then there’s no sound. There is, in some form of waves, but it needs an experiencer to be “sound”.

6. Who is hearing the sound? Is there only sound or ‘something’ that is hearing the sound?

I can’t find anything that’s hearing the sound. It feels like the sound already contains the “hearer”. Like experiencing and sound are one.

If I say that the hearing, hearer and the heard (sound) are all the same, what happens? Can you find this separation in DE?

Yes, that’s what I wrote above, that’s how it feels to me.


Thanks for taking the time, I appreciate. I hope that you can work somehow with my answers. I usually give short answers not because I'm lazy or I don't want to do this. It took me almost 2 hours to write what I wrote above. It's just that I only want to write things that make sense to me, not everything that comes to my mind.

[yuvi]

hey, thanks for your long answer.

You are welcome, happy to walk along your path..

Yes, I can see that all these thoughts and emotions are experienced but an actual experiencer is not seen.

Very good. But keep this LOOKING throughout your daily activities. Turn your attention towards the one that is LOOKING and SEEKING. Observe your beingness. Especially while walking, typing, etc. When you are fully absorbed in some activity, take a moment to look at the center of the experiences. Frustration comes, thoughts like ‘why is it so tough’ comes up. Remember that all these are real experiences but without YOU in the middle. keep looking and write what comes up.

I haven’t found an actual “I” that does things so I can say it’s only an assumption. For example when I say “I’m typing right now” I assume that there is an “I” that does the typing. However direct experience just shows that fingers touch the keyboard and there’s no central doer.

Exactly. Good looking.

I can’t experience the experiencer. I feel all these feelings, I see all these thoughts. But I can’t see what sees them.

So can we say, there are ‘feelings’, ‘thoughts’ and also an experience of ‘something that tries to see itself and fails’?

That’s exactly what I feel. That there is a space in which thought happens and that this space is closely related to me.

This is just another thought. This thought is so subtle where you can’t discern if it is an image or voice. Such thoughts give a ‘feeling’ of ‘YOU’ as a ‘space’, something dark (when eyes closed), in which all the sensations are felt (like it comes and goes). This specific thought also says that ‘YOU’ are this empty space or awareness or something that is a background of all perceptions and sensations.
But is this background ‘space’ really experienced?
If so, which of the 5 senses do you use to experience this so called space?
Do you see that this is another thought in disguise that makes you think without knowing you are thinking?

Yes. I see the difference between raw sounds and labels. I can also see how the labelling happens instantly. When I hear a sound, my mind searches for a label and gives an answer for example “computer fan”.

Where is mind?
Can you experience it with 5 senses?

No I don’t see any inside. I just see that the sounds are outside and there is no point where they enter.

Let me clarify why you have this contradicting experience of no inside but sensations are ‘felt’ outside: When you close your eyes and look for inside/outside in DE, there are many mental images that gives meaning to the experience. You were spot on in identifying these mental images (or thoughts) that are associated with raw sensation of sound. But did you also notice a similar labelling happening to your own body?
That there is a ‘body’ sitting in a particular location in space-time? Can you see the images of ‘body sitting’, sensations of ‘eyelids’ shut, sensation of ‘back touching’ the couch etc. Can you notice how raw sensations are labelled?

Since you missed noticing these, but focussed on labels associated with sound, you felt a ‘reference point’ of these sensations. When all labels are carefully seen, there can be no inside, outside, near, far, ‘space’ or anything. Just sensations. Can you see this?

I don’t know what to say to this one. If there are no people on earth and music plays from a speaker then there’s no sound. There is, in some form of waves, but it needs an experiencer to be “sound”.

Is there a ‘music’ where there is no hearer? Isn’t music a label given to different pattern of sounds? A sound is only sound when it is heard. A sound (heard) cannot be experienced outside experiencing (hearing). HEaring and the heard are one and the same.

Here is an excerpt from an article written by Goran Backlund that may help you see this about ‘color’ (same applies for sound, touch, etc.): "We derived the notion of color from our experience. We saw redness and made a word for it. And thus what we mean by “red” is the redness in our experience. Now, the reason why one would believe colors could possibly exist outside of experience is because we believe the perceived object is separate from the act of perception. We believe that colors are different from seeing, that sounds are different from hearing and so on. However, while the redness in our experience is what we mean by “red”, the redness in our experience is also what we mean by “seeing”. You can of course see different colors at different times and in that sense “seeing” is different from a particular color – but seeing is always seeing of color, and in each and every instance the ‘seeing of the color’ and the ‘color seen’ refers to the same thing: the presence of that color in our experience. For example, we see green. The ‘seeing of green’ and ‘green’ are the same. Now we see blue. The ‘seeing of blue’ and ‘blue’ are the same. We now say, “I saw green, then blue” and this gives the impression that the act of seeing is separate from what is seen. But ‘seeing red’ and ‘red’ both refer to the redness in our experience. A color and the seeing of it are the exact same thing.

We cannot conceive of an unseen color because the color and the seeing of it are the same thing.

The perceived object and the act of perception are the same. In fact, the object is the act of perception. Its existence in our consciousness is what perceiving is. It is only language and thinking that fools us into believing otherwise.”

I usually give short answers not because I'm lazy or I don't want to do this. It took me almost 2 hours to write what I wrote above. It's just that I only want to write things that make sense to me, not everything that comes to my mind.

you don’t have to explain, as I am not judging you. :)
judging is another thought, just like your ‘feeling the need to explain’ to ensure ‘I – yuvi –don’t judge your short answers are coming out of laziness’

[Mateo_x]

Very good. But keep this LOOKING throughout your daily activities. Turn your attention towards the one that is LOOKING and SEEKING. Observe your beingness. Especially while walking, typing, etc. When you are fully absorbed in some activity, take a moment to look at the center of the experiences. Frustration comes, thoughts like ‘why is it so tough’ comes up. Remember that all these are real experiences but without YOU in the middle. keep looking and write what comes up.

I observed myself today while doing standard everyday things like washing the dishes etc. Even now while I’m writing. No central thing can be found. There’s the process of writing but no controller can be found.

So can we say, there are ‘feelings’, ‘thoughts’ and also an experience of ‘something that tries to see itself and fails’?

Yes, we can say that trying to find self is just another experience, just another story. It’s not different than any other story (for example a story of going to work in the morning).

This is just another thought. This thought is so subtle where you can’t discern if it is an image or voice. Such thoughts give a ‘feeling’ of ‘YOU’ as a ‘space’, something dark (when eyes closed), in which all the sensations are felt (like it comes and goes). This specific thought also says that ‘YOU’ are this empty space or awareness or something that is a background of all perceptions and sensations.
But is this background ‘space’ really experienced?
If so, which of the 5 senses do you use to experience this so called space?
Do you see that this is another thought in disguise that makes you think without knowing you are thinking?

I never really checked this or looked at this before. I always thought that me is somehow closely related to this space in which thought happens. I can see that the idea of space needed for thought might be another thought. Because what else can it be? This space exists in reality only as thought. I can’t measure how big it is, or what shape does it have. I can’t touch the borders of it with my hands. I can’t see them with my eyes. It’s in the thought world.

Where is mind?
Can you experience it with 5 senses?

I see mind as the operating system. Mind to me means the programming. The rules how to behave in certain situations. I can’t experience it. I can only experience effects of its work. For example if I see a friend, I smile and that to me is the effect of the mind working. I can’t find it, I can’t point to certain place and say “there’s mind”. It’s like it works somewhere in the background.

Let me clarify why you have this contradicting experience of no inside but sensations are ‘felt’ outside: When you close your eyes and look for inside/outside in DE, there are many mental images that gives meaning to the experience. You were spot on in identifying these mental images (or thoughts) that are associated with raw sensation of sound. But did you also notice a similar labelling happening to your own body?
That there is a ‘body’ sitting in a particular location in space-time? Can you see the images of ‘body sitting’, sensations of ‘eyelids’ shut, sensation of ‘back touching’ the couch etc. Can you notice how raw sensations are labelled?

I didn’t notice it yesterday. Today, when I close my eyes and focus on the sounds, I also focus on my body. I see that not only sounds are labelled but also feelings coming from the body.

Since you missed noticing these, but focussed on labels associated with sound, you felt a ‘reference point’ of these sensations. When all labels are carefully seen, there can be no inside, outside, near, far, ‘space’ or anything. Just sensations. Can you see this?

Again, I close my eyes and focus on sounds and my body. I see that the experience of sound is no different than for example experience of some feeling in my back. They’re on the same level. Both are just experiences, it doesn’t feel like one is coming from the inside and one is coming from the outside.

Is there a ‘music’ where there is no hearer? Isn’t music a label given to different pattern of sounds? A sound is only sound when it is heard. A sound (heard) cannot be experienced outside experiencing (hearing). HEaring and the heard are one and the same.

This one is hard for me. If I play some music but I cover my ears so I can’t hear anything then there’s no music. There’s no experience of music which means there’s no music at all. Experience of hearing and what is heard is one. I’m trying to grasp it but it’s still tricky.

Thanks!

[yuvi]

I observed myself today while doing standard everyday things like washing the dishes etc. Even now while I’m writing. No central thing can be found. There’s the process of writing but no controller can be found.

Yes, everything happens. This is how it has been, is now and will ever be. There are experiences in the ever present NOW, but mind labels everything to give an experience of ‘YOU’- the experiencer, ‘experiencing’ the ‘experiences’. In reality, there is no separation.

The direct path is to not identify with the ‘LOOKER’ but to turn the attention towards that which is LOOKING and SEEKING. Stick with this pointer for a day or two, and let me know what comes up.

I can see that the idea of space needed for thought might be another thought. Because what else can it be? This space exists in reality only as thought.

Right. The seeker generally becomes a witness of all the sensations and thoughts when he/she gives enough attention to the DE. But mind is very cunning. This seeker, at this stage, identifies himself or herself to be this ‘space’ or ‘awareness’ or ‘background’ in which all sensations comes and goes. here is an analogy: imagine a white paper with several black 'dots’ on it. And there is a ‘dot’ that has been thinking all the while that the other ‘dots’ are around it and it is at the centre. On careful introspection, this ‘dot’ realizes that it is just another ‘dot’ on the paper. On further noticing, the ‘dot’ sees that there was no paper in the first place, but only ‘dots’.

This ‘background awareness’ or ‘space of awareness’ is an essential concept insofar as it is used to realize that there is no central experiencer. Once realized, this concept is just like that paper – need to be taken away.

I see mind as the operating system. Mind to me means the programming. The rules how to behave in certain situations. I can’t experience it. I can only experience effects of its work. For example if I see a friend, I smile and that to me is the effect of the mind working. I can’t find it, I can’t point to certain place and say “there’s mind”. It’s like it works somewhere in the background.

Please refer to my paper analogy in the previous response. Is ‘mind’ something perceived thorough senses? Or is it a concept just like ‘space of awareness’?

I see that not only sounds are labelled but also feelings coming from the body.

How is it known that the feelings coming from body? There are feelings, I grant that. ‘From the body’ – is that a thought or is that experienced in DE?

If I play some music but I cover my ears so I can’t hear anything then there’s no music.

When you cover your ears and can’t hear anything, this is what happens (don't believe me, but check your DE and let me know):

Sensation 1: There is a ‘sight’ where your arms and fingers move towards the periphery of the face
Sensation 2: There is a 'touch’ that is quickly labelled as ‘my palm covering my ears’
Sensation 3: Absence of 'sound’ that was heard thus far

Let us investigate these 3 sensations further:

Sensation 1: Is there any evidence that what you see is ‘your arms’ and ‘your fingers’? Refer to the article about ‘colors’ I sent in previous response. Can anything exist outside your experience of it? If not, how do you know that what you see is present objectively whether or not it is experienced? Body that you see is just another construct of mind. Can you see this?

Sensation 2: Is there a sensation of touching ears? Remember our previous experiments on labeling? Try doing it and see if these sensations are immediately labelled as ‘my palm touching my ears.'

Sensation 3: 'Music' is a label given to specific patterns and intensity of sound. Similarly, 'absence of sound' or 'silence' is just another label given to sound. Presence or absence of sound are both experiences - real ones. Mind makes sense of this by labeling the presence as 'music' and absence as 'silence'.

After investigating the above sensations, please answer this:
What connects these sensations of sight, touch and sound?

[Mateo_x]

Please refer to my paper analogy in the previous response. Is ‘mind’ something perceived thorough senses? Or is it a concept just like ‘space of awareness’?

It’s a concept. It can’t be experienced.

How is it known that the feelings coming from body? There are feelings, I grant that. ‘From the body’ – is that a thought or is that experienced in DE?

In direct experience there are just feelings, sensations. I can’t say they’re from the body. Only my thoughts tell me where they come from.

Yes, everything happens. This is how it has been, is now and will ever be. There are experiences in the ever present NOW, but mind labels everything to give an experience of ‘YOU’- the experiencer, ‘experiencing’ the ‘experiences’. In reality, there is no separation.

The direct path is to not identify with the ‘LOOKER’ but to turn the attention towards that which is LOOKING and SEEKING. Stick with this pointer for a day or two, and let me know what comes up.

When I look at everything from the perspective that there’s just experience, everything becomes lighter. Things loose their seriousness and life seems much more simple.

Right. The seeker generally becomes a witness of all the sensations and thoughts when he/she gives enough attention to the DE. But mind is very cunning. This seeker, at this stage, identifies himself or herself to be this ‘space’ or ‘awareness’ or ‘background’ in which all sensations comes and goes. here is an analogy: imagine a white paper with several black 'dots’ on it. And there is a ‘dot’ that has been thinking all the while that the other ‘dots’ are around it and it is at the centre. On careful introspection, this ‘dot’ realizes that it is just another ‘dot’ on the paper. On further noticing, the ‘dot’ sees that there was no paper in the first place, but only ‘dots’.

This ‘background awareness’ or ‘space of awareness’ is an essential concept insofar as it is used to realize that there is no central experiencer. Once realized, this concept is just like that paper – need to be taken away.

In all my previous posts I felt that I’m at the center and everything revolves around me. What you wrote above made me realize that I’m not at the center of experience. Everything is experienced but I’m not standing in the middle. I can’t point to the center between experiences.

Is there any evidence that what you see is ‘your arms’ and ‘your fingers’?

My arms would be mine if there was a me to which they belong. A self can’t be seen so there’s no evidence. That would mean that there’s no ownership of anything in the world.

Can anything exist outside your experience of it? If not, how do you know that what you see is present objectively whether or not it is experienced?

I’m not sure if I understand this question well. The fact that I’m not experiencing something, doesn’t mean that this something doesn’t exist. I can cover my eyes and not see my computer. The fact that I can’t see it doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist. Someone else can look and see it.

Body that you see is just another construct of mind.

Yes I can see that. It’s just another thing that is experienced.

Is there a sensation of touching ears? Remember our previous experiments on labeling? Try doing it and see if these sensations are immediately labelled as ‘my palm touching my ears.'

When I cover my ears there’s the raw feeling of this action and thoughts that say that this feeling means covering the ears with hands.

'Music' is a label given to specific patterns and intensity of sound. Similarly, 'absence of sound' or 'silence' is just another label given to sound. Presence or absence of sound are both experiences - real ones. Mind makes sense of this by labeling the presence as 'music' and absence as 'silence'.

I see that. It’s like two sides of the same coin.

What connects these sensations of sight, touch and sound?

Sorry, I don’t know how to answer this one, I don't think I understand the question... You mean what do they have in common?

Thanks!

[yuvi]

We can come back to other responses later (sensations of body, sight, sound, etc.). I’d like you to first investigate your thoughts and the sense of ‘self’

When I look at everything from the perspective that there’s just experience, everything becomes lighter. Things loose their seriousness and life seems much more simple.

Very good looking. Now you know where to look and direct the attention. Focus on that which is looking. Go deep, be intense, don’t get carried away by thoughts.

At this stage, it is possible that you experience thoughts like, “maybe there is nothing more to see. I have told my guide my findings and but he seems persistent, and asks me to continue looking. I should probably write in a way he concludes this session.”

Do you see such thoughts? If so, can you see that they are past thoughts (of what happened yesterday) occupying the present moment? Is there an “I”, right now as you are reading this message on the screen?

Only my thoughts tell me where they come from

Let’s have a deeper look on thoughts. Sit for about 15 minutes and investigate these questions:

Where thoughts come from?
Where are they going?
Can ‘you’ stop a thought in the middle?
Can ‘you’ predict what will be the next thought?
Can 'you' choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?
Can an 'I' be found that generates thoughts?
“I think” - What is 'I'? What is the one that thinks?
What is the thinker of thoughts?
Does the thinker of the thought appear in experience? Can it be found?
Or could it be that the 'I' that thinks is also just a thought?
Is there an 'I' that controls thoughts?
Is there an 'I' that has ownership of thoughts?
What do the thoughts belong to? What owns them?
Do you think thoughts or you are just being thought?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Including the thought 'I'?

Please go through these questions and answer ALL of them one-by-one. Don’t miss any. Take your time. I will wait

cheers :)

[Mateo_x]

Hello I'll answer your question tomorrow, it's 11 pm here and I still haven't finished work...

[yuvi]

there is no urgency in this discussion. the more time you take to examine, the better..

[Mateo_x]

there is no urgency in this discussion. the more time you take to examine, the better..

Yes I know, but I said that I’ll post at least once a day and I don’t like to not live up to what I said. You spend your free time helping me out, so I want to do my job here as well as I can.

At this stage, it is possible that you experience thoughts like, “maybe there is nothing more to see. I have told my guide my findings and but he seems persistent, and asks me to continue looking. I should probably write in a way he concludes this session.”

While looking I had thoughts that said “maybe there really is nothing there”. They were kind of surprising actually because I’ve been looking for years at this and I never had that kind of thoughts.

Do you see such thoughts? If so, can you see that they are past thoughts (of what happened yesterday) occupying the present moment?

Yes, I can see that the content of thoughts is related to something from the past, but the thoughts appear right now.

Is there an “I”, right now as you are reading this message on the screen?

I’m trying to turn the attention inwards to see what is looking. I don’t know if I’m looking correctly. Maybe my looking is fine, I’m just looking in the wrong place. Maybe I should look in a place I never looked before and then I won’t have to stare, because a simple quick look will be enough. I can’t see any I. There are experiences, body, thoughts and everything but I can’t be found.

Where thoughts come from?

They just appear, I can’t say where do they come from. But they are sometimes caused by the environment. For example I see a friend and a thought pops up that’s somehow related to him. Sometimes, for example while lying on the bed before sleep, thoughts appear without any stimulus. Or there’s a chain of thoughts, one thought appears and another related to the first one.

Where are they going?

They just disappear.

Can ‘you’ stop a thought in the middle?

I can’t. They appear lightning fast. They disappear just as fast. It’s like they have no time. I can’t measure how long a thought is. It appears all at once so I can’t stop it.

Can ‘you’ predict what will be the next thought?

I can’t.

Can 'you' choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?

No, I can’t stop them. But I can take certain actions that I know bring positive state. If I’m feeling bad and I go to the gym I know that the bad thoughts will stop. I have to go through some process to change them.

Can an 'I' be found that generates thoughts?

No, they just appear out of nowhere.

“I think” - What is 'I'? What is the one that thinks?

It’s the same as with hearing sounds etc. I can’t find the one that thinks/hears. I just see thoughts.

What is the thinker of thoughts?

God, this is so frustrating!!! I can’t find a thinker. I’m looking through a window at different things and thoughts come up as reactions to what is seen. I can say that a thought is an instant reaction to the environment, however for some thoughts I can’t find the stimulus. It’s more like a mechanism than some thinker thinking up thoughts.

Does the thinker of the thought appear in experience? Can it be found?

I can’t find it. I see only thoughts, not the thinker.

Or could it be that the 'I' that thinks is also just a thought?

It’s possible that the self is just an idea/another thought. Just imagination. I haven’t found it yet, I probably never will. Maybe it’s just an assumption that thinking (or whatever else) needs a self.

Is there an 'I' that controls thoughts?

Like I said before, it’s more like a mechanism. See friend = relevant thoughts. More like cause effect relation than some I controlling thoughts.

Is there an 'I' that has ownership of thoughts?

No, it doesn’t feel like it. They come from nowhere and go to nowhere. Noone holds them.

What do the thoughts belong to? What owns them?

They don’t belong to anyone/anything. Same as above.

Do you think thoughts or you are just being thought?

It feels more like the second option. Like I’m the victim of the thoughts not the creator of them. Victim sounds negative, I don’t mean it that way. It’s not like thoughts come from me, rather they come from the outside.

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Including the thought 'I'?

It’s not possible. I don’t have any control of them. I don’t know what thought will appear next. I can’t say “alright from now on I don’t want to think about XYZ”. If “I” is another thought then it would also not be possible to prevent it from appearing. Because of the nature of language, If I want to say almost anything I have to use “I”. I wouldn’t be able to communicate without the use of “I” so it keeps reappearing.

[yuvi]

While looking I had thoughts that said “maybe there really is nothing there”. They were kind of surprising actually because I’ve been looking for years at this and I never had that kind of thoughts.

I just wanted you to know how to see that thoughts are just thoughts, like other sensations. The moment you think without knowing you are thinking, you can experience feelings that are labelled as frustration, boring, waste of time etc.. Don’t leave any thought, even the strongest one that tells you to give up. That is a THOUGHT and I want you to explore how thoughts work

I’m trying to turn the attention inwards to see what is looking. I don’t know if I’m looking correctly. Maybe my looking is fine, I’m just looking in the wrong place.

You are doing just good. The thoughts that comes up are the resistances that many seekers experience when they actually start LOOKING. When you don't see that the resistance is just another thought that is believed, then it is likely to experience frustration.

They just appear, I can’t say where do they come from. But they are sometimes caused by the environment. For example I see a friend and a thought pops up that’s somehow related to him. Sometimes, for example while lying on the bed before sleep, thoughts appear without any stimulus. Or there’s a chain of thoughts, one thought appears and another related to the first one.

Here is what happens (just an example):
Thought A: I am now working on this LU guidance for a week
Thought B: I know “I” is not there. But there is something that should be seen through
Thought C: Not sure how long it takes. This is getting tough
Thought D: Thoughts A, B, C and D are true
Frustration

Are all these thoughts linked? Or there are 4 DIFFERENT thoughts that are LINKED when you start thinking without knowing you are thinking (lost in thought D)?

When you think without knowing you are thinking (e.g. thought D), thoughts A. B and C are automatically believed. You have different arising thoughts when you are LOOKING. Somewhere down the line, you start thinking without knowing (believing) and all the other different thoughts are linked to manifest frustration. Examine your thoughts in this model and write to me.

But I can take certain actions that I know bring positive state. If I’m feeling bad and I go to the gym I know that the bad thoughts will stop. I have to go through some process to change them.

Is there a “MAT” that is present in the above scenario? Can it be seen that all this is happening without a center?

God, this is so frustrating!!! I can’t find a thinker. I’m looking through a window at different things and thoughts come up as reactions to what is seen. I can say that a thought is an instant reaction to the environment, however for some thoughts I can’t find the stimulus. It’s more like a mechanism than some thinker thinking up thoughts.

This is so frustrating!!!" is just another thought that is believed! Is there really a subject that is thinking?
Could it be that 'there must be a subject doing the thinking' is just an unexamined belief, an unexamined assumption?

It’s possible that the self is just an idea/another thought. Just imagination. I haven’t found it yet, I probably never will. Maybe it’s just an assumption that thinking (or whatever else) needs a self.

Your answer comes from thinking. Write from your DE. Can you assume in DE? Find out whether an assumption is REALLY happening or this is just a belief.

Like I’m the victim of the thoughts not the creator of them

So, is there really a 'you' that could be the victim of thoughts? Do thoughts have the power to victimize? CAN A THOUGHT DO ANYTHING? Or is this just another thought believed and not seen only as arising thought?

It’s not like thoughts come from me, rather they come from the outside

How is this known that thoughts are coming from the outside? Look. Is it possible that this is just another thought believed?

If “I” is another thought then it would also not be possible to prevent it from appearing.

If 'I' is another thought" - IF??? Find this out whether this is just an “if”, just a possibility, or 'I' is really just a thought.

It’s not possible. I don’t have any control of them. I don’t know what thought will appear next. I can’t say “alright from now on I don’t want to think about XYZ”. If “I” is another thought then it would also not be possible to prevent it from appearing. Because of the nature of language, If I want to say almost anything I have to use “I”. I wouldn’t be able to communicate without the use of “I” so it keeps reappearing.

We will come back to this later

[Mateo_x]

I just wanted you to know how to see that thoughts are just thoughts, like other sensations. The moment you think without knowing you are thinking, you can experience feelings that are labelled as frustration, boring, waste of time etc.. Don’t leave any thought, even the strongest one that tells you to give up. That is a THOUGHT and I want you to explore how thoughts work

I see that thoughts are just thoughts. I see that they have different pull and that their content might be true or false. For example if I put a finger into a boiling water and a thought “this is hot” pops up then it’s a true thought. If I think “there is someone in the room”, and I go and check and the room is empty then it’s a false thought.

Is there a “MAT” that is present in the above scenario? Can it be seen that all this is happening without a center?

There is a knowing that when I take certain action the emotional state will change. There is just a knowing that certain action will cause specific results. It’s not like Mat takes thoughts and changes them. Negative thoughts stop appearing and positive ones appear.

This is so frustrating!!!" is just another thought that is believed! Is there really a subject that is thinking?

I see that it’s just another thought. No there’s no subject that is thinking. I feel now like I’m writing what you want to hear but that’s not true and I see that ‘I’m writing what Yuvi wants to hear’ is just another thought. There is another “I’m getting good at this thought stuff” and I see that it’s just a thought as well.

Could it be that 'there must be a subject doing the thinking' is just an unexamined belief, an unexamined assumption?

No subject doing the thinking is seen. I’m trying to answer from my experience not my thoughts. Thoughts come and go, no creator of them is seen.

Your answer comes from thinking. Write from your DE. Can you assume in DE? Find out whether an assumption is REALLY happening or this is just a belief.

I can’t assume in direct experience. There just is what is and there’s no place for assumption. Things either are in some way or they are not. I can’t find any self. However, for my whole life I believed that there is a self. I believed it so much that I never even questioned it. I can’t see a self. All I see are feelings and thoughts that say “it must be somewhere”.

So, is there really a 'you' that could be the victim of thoughts? Do thoughts have the power to victimize? CAN A THOUGHT DO ANYTHING? Or is this just another thought believed and not seen only as arising thought?

Thoughts can cause negative feelings but all there is is experience of those feelings. No victim but experience of them. Thought is just thought and it can’t do anything however sometimes their pull is so strong that they can cause some unwanted action. For example someone does something bad to you and the thoughts are so strong that you seek revenge. In that case they have the power to make you do something that is not good for you in the long run.

How is this known that thoughts are coming from the outside? Look. Is it possible that this is just another thought believed?

I can’t say where they come from. Inside/outside doesn’t feel true. All I can say is that they come.

If 'I' is another thought" - IF??? Find this out whether this is just an “if”, just a possibility, or 'I' is really just a thought.

There is a thought that ‘I’ is the cause of all actions. There is a thought that ‘I’ is hiding somewhere and that “IT MUST BE SOMEWHERE HERE”. However I is not seen.

Here is what happens (just an example):
Thought A: I am now working on this LU guidance for a week
Thought B: I know “I” is not there. But there is something that should be seen through
Thought C: Not sure how long it takes. This is getting tough
Thought D: Thoughts A, B, C and D are true
Frustration

Are all these thoughts linked? Or there are 4 DIFFERENT thoughts that are LINKED when you start thinking without knowing you are thinking (lost in thought D)?

When you think without knowing you are thinking (e.g. thought D), thoughts A. B and C are automatically believed. You have different arising thoughts when you are LOOKING. Somewhere down the line, you start thinking without knowing (believing) and all the other different thoughts are linked to manifest frustration. Examine your thoughts in this model and write to me.

I’m not sure if I know what you mean here. I see that all these are different thoughts. I see that there is another thought that says whether some other thought is true or false. I see that frustration appears as a result of questioning thoughts. I see a thought “a self must be somewhere here” and when I start looking and can’t find a self frustration and other emotions appear because on one side there’s a thought screaming “the self exists” and on the other side there’s no evidence for it.

[yuvi]

take a day off, Mat. Don't take any effort to Look for self, don't do anything.
Take a walk in a park and experience nature. or do something you love. Fully absorbed. Relax. Have a cup of coffee. Embrace all experiences for a day. Don't take any effort to do ANYTHING, even to witness these experiences. Relax, love every experience that comes your way, even if it is anger, discomfort, painful thoughts, whatever. Let them come and go like clouds in the sky. Just for a day. JUST BE.
We will resume discussion on 12-Nov IST

[Mateo_x]

alright, sure

cheers

[yuvi]

How was your day, Mat? Everything good?

let's resume where we left..

For example if I put a finger into a boiling water and a thought “this is hot” pops up then it’s a true thought.

The objective of these exercises is to differentiate ‘thoughts’ and ‘contents of thoughts’.
On inserting finger into boiling water, is there ‘hotness’ –OR- ‘sensations’ with labels ‘discomfort’ because of ‘hotness’?

In direct experience there is seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling, touching/feeling. And there is noticing an arising thought.

Thoughts as arising thoughts are ‘real’, but they contents (what they are ABOUT) are not. Like when you think about Dart Vader. There is an arising thought, it cannot be denied, but its content “Dart Vader” is not real. Sometimes thoughts point to something tangible, like chair, however a thought about a chair is not a chair. A thought about a chair is just a mental concept with an arising mental image of a ‘chair’ but that image is not ‘real’. However, as an arising image is there, it is ‘real’, but not its content (what it’s about).

Certain sensations can be felt in the body that is labelled such and such emotion, like ‘cheerful’. However, ‘cheerful’ is just a mental label on the felt sensation. So the felt sensation is ‘real’, the arising mental label, simply as arising label is ‘real’, but its content ‘cheerful’ is just an idea.

Can you see this?

There is a knowing that when I take certain action the emotional state will change. There is just a knowing that certain action will cause specific results. It’s not like Mat takes thoughts and changes them. Negative thoughts stop appearing and positive ones appear.

Right. Everything happens without anyone incharge. Can this be seen?
There is a mental suffering, then an urge to act on it, then there is an action, then there is cessation of suffering. Was Mat present in the middle of any of these?

I see that it’s just another thought. No there’s no subject that is thinking. I feel now like I’m writing what you want to hear but that’s not true and I see that ‘I’m writing what Yuvi wants to hear’ is just another thought. There is another “I’m getting good at this thought stuff” and I see that it’s just a thought as well.

Good looking. From the above response, I can see you are primed enough to be aware of the movement of thoughts, even the subtle ones. This is fundamental to the inquiry.

I can’t see a self. All I see are feelings and thoughts that say “it must be somewhere”.

Is there REALLY a 'thing' that is seeing feelings or thoughts –OR- seeing and feeling happens by themselves without any doer or owner?

For example someone does something bad to you and the thoughts are so strong that you seek revenge. In that case they have the power to make you do something that is not good for you in the long run.

Thoughts ‘as just an arising thought’ don’t do anything. By ‘believing’ (or thinking without knowing) the ‘content’ of it, feelings arise that are labelled as revenge, hatred, disappointment, etc.

‘Thoughts’ are real - it is experienced. ‘Content of thoughts’ is not real – it is not experienced. Believing in something that is not experienced initiates the sequence of unpleasant experiences (in the context of suffering). Then a seeker is caught in the loop believing that the subsequent experience is the result of previous thought content, and so on.

Here is a little exercise to help you see what I am talking about (about what is experienced and what is not):

If you were in a desert, close to die of thirst, could you quench your thirst just by thinking about water (thoughts) or would you need to drink the ‘real’ water?

Let’s say I’m with you in the desert and offer you too options: (1) In my left hand there is a piece of paper with the word ‘water’ written onto it (2) and in my right hand there is a bottle of water.

Which one would you choose? The label or the actual water?
Could you quench your thirst with the label?
If not, what this says about labels? Are they real?

Yes, they are ‘real’ as labels, as arising thoughts (like the piece of paper with the word printed on it) but its content, what the thought is about (= the word ‘water’) is not real. Can you see this?

I’m not sure if I know what you mean here. I see that all these are different thoughts. I see that there is another thought that says whether some other thought is true or false. I see that frustration appears as a result of questioning thoughts. .

That is the objective of the exercise. To be totally aware of the movement of thoughts. When this mechanism is unexamined, the seeker will be caught in the loop of frustration and satisfaction.